Legal extortion--and they like it

[1940LaSalle]

I may have stumbled upon a way (admittedly a variation on a theme posted previously) of getting rival civilizations to subsidize my development. Recently, I (as Bismarck) traded the French astronomy, getting in return 330 gold (the entire contents of their treasury) plus 29 gold/turn, which equaled their income. Punch line: that's what Joan offered voluntarily in return for that tech.

So...it appears that it's possible to offer a useful, non-dead-end tech and extort a sizable price from another civ, thereby getting someone else to underwrite faster development while crippling their own development financially. I'll have more to say whether this was a one-time lucky happenstance or whether this proves more universally applicable.

 

[Spoonwood]

This *does* work and many people around here have known this for quite sometime (check the War Academy... I think it's there somewhere... actually Bamspeedy's article on "Deity Settlers" gives an example of it), given some conditions. The AI has to enough enough money. This means that at lower levels, this works out harder to do. However, at lower levels you have a fairly low tech cost, so you don't really need it. At higher levels you can, if they have money. They *might* have some money before currency and while in depotism at Deity, but not all too often really. Once they have currency and some other government than despotism, some AI will have a little gpt, though not all that much. However, a little after they get Banking, they tend to have a good amount of gpt and will pay for tech. The Corporation seems to not have a whole lot of effect, although that might happen because the AIs war more in the industrial age and train more units.

 

[vmxa]

I would NOT feel like you extorted her as she got a good deal. I don't know the map and levle, but on std map on regent Astro is worth 1344. You 330+580 or 910. If she had not invested any into the tech, she just saved 134.

Sounds like all are happy to me. Now if the map is larger and the level higher, the deal was even better. I hope you peddled it all around on that turn?

 

[1940LaSalle]

I would feel like you extorted her as she got a good deal. I don't know the map and levle, but on std map on regent Astro is worth 1344. You 330+580 or 910. If she had not invested any into the tech, she just saved 134.

Sounds like all are happy to me. Now if the map is larger and the level higher, the deal was even better. I hope you peddled it all around on that turn?

Working on the latter. I'm still relatively new at this (chieftain level; difficult to assess how large the map is and I'm not in a position to offer a screen shot). Still, extortion or not, I guess it's a strategic step in the right direction.

 

[Aabraxan]

Smart trading is a big part of the game and it's a good way to fund your own research. I think of it as economic warfare and it is a good way to drain the AI's economy while funding your own research.

 

[vmxa]

Working on the latter. I'm still relatively new at this (chieftain level; difficult to assess how large the map is and I'm not in a position to offer a screen shot). Still, extortion or not, I guess it's a strategic step in the right direction.

I meant to say it is not extortion, I edited it. Anyway you can use a tool like SeedBeast or CA to tell the map size. Basically all techs have a base cost as seen in the editor.

That is multiplied by the cost factor and the map modifier. There are other factors, but for purposes of seeing if you got a fair price this is all you need.

Astro base cost is 56. Std map is 240 and cost factor for Regent is 10. So it comes to 1344.

A utility can be found to do all that for you in the forum for them.

For sure you are doing the right thing. The only two things that you want to keep in mind, is 1) do not make the deal in the in between turn, unless there is no one else to trade it with 2) once you sell it peddle it every where.

You can also look at the impact of the tech. Astro is a tech that can let them get out to sea and that may or may not be an issue for you.

If it had a wonder or a unit associated with the tech, you may want to reconsider. I also like to be careful about techs that will let them get to the next age.

If you are about to met additional nations, you may want to hold off, so you can sell it to them, rather than the one you traded it with.

 

[capnvonbaron]

So...it appears that it's possible to offer a useful, non-dead-end tech and extort a sizable price from another civ, thereby getting someone else to underwrite faster development while crippling their own development financially. I'll have more to say whether this was a one-time lucky happenstance or whether this proves more universally applicable.

Just an idea for you to try next time, something vxma alluded to...

Sell it to multiple nations for as much as they can afford, all on your turn. Never sell to an AI on your IBT... the AI will just give away your hard-earned tech to all its buddies for pennies on the dollar. On regent, esp. if you have a couple of power-house civs on the map, you can sell them all a tech once you discover it and get them to pay you everything they have once out of the AA. That way, you temporarily bankrupt the civ you are selling to, and get oodles of cash to speed your own research.

Ideally, I won't sell a tech that will be useful to another civ. A good example... I can beeline "replaceable parts" quickly after hitting the IA. I certainly will NOT sell that until I have built up a lot of infantry and arty and used it and my existing cavalry to take over my nearest neighbor(s). I also like to find out where rubber is on the map so I can deny as much of it to the rest of the world as I can... without rubber, the AI is impotent. NPI

I hold it as a personal rule now to never sell a tech for less than its worth. Its important to keep the AI happy with you to achieve this, though, so you have to have a good trade rep. Also, take a look at the "Tech Brokering" article under war academy; it is kind of the extreme end of things, but that will give you some insights as well.

EDIT: Ack! Sorry, major crosspost. I guess I should read more than just the first two responses before hitting the "quote" button

 

[1940LaSalle]

Thanks for the lead toward tech brokering and the concept of selling techs, as well as the tip about going for replaceable parts. Duly noted.

Something of a dual-purpose strategy seems to be taking shape: the French seem to have some source of gold, and they (the AI) seem willing to part with it. Thus, I can use that tendency to (1) underwrite my own research, and (2) keep their research badly under-funded. More to follow on that one. (For what it's worth, other civs seem to be disgustingly cash-poor, with treasuries in the single digits: they don't get squat from me.)

 

[capnvonbaron]

The more powerful AIs bully the weaker AI out of their cash constantly. Worse, once you get to the IA, techs start getting so expensive that the weaker AI can't afford to research anything and still hold up a military or happy people. Thats why they oft get bulldozed in the middle/late IA on middle difficulty levels.

I got to see it first-hand in a OCC 20K challenge on a standard regent map. I won, but not after a lot of pain and bullying imposed upon me from the AI

 

[TheOverseer714]

The more powerful AIs bully the weaker AI out of their cash constantly. Worse, once you get to the IA, techs start getting so expensive that the weaker AI can't afford to research anything and still hold up a military or happy people. Thats why they oft get bulldozed in the middle/late IA on middle difficulty levels.

I got to see it first-hand in a OCC 20K challenge on a standard regent map. I won, but not after a lot of pain and bullying imposed upon me from the AI

That experience should make it much easier to kill the SOBs when you can. They are all bullies, so feel good when you kick their butts.

 

[capnvonbaron]

That experience should make it much easier to kill the SOBs when you can. They are all bullies, so feel good when you kick their butts.

Exactly. I must say I'm much more likely just to burn every one of their cities to the ground and resettle the whole mess now than before when I go out a' conquerin'. You wouldn't believe how many times I find a wheat or cattle tile under one of their cities Slave workers then get reserved for jungle clearing and pollution cleaning duties.

 

[1940LaSalle]

I hold it as a personal rule now to never sell a tech for less than its worth. Its important to keep the AI happy with you to achieve this, though, so you have to have a good trade rep. Also, take a look at the "Tech Brokering" article under war academy; it is kind of the extreme end of things, but that will give you some insights as well.

I'm wondering if there's a similar correlation with cities? That is, assuming there's a neighboring cash-poor civ that may covet one of my techs, it would be valuable to know which city/cities, especially those adjacent to the border, would constitute getting equal value for the tech in question. If that could be determined, it's possible that (let's say) a situation analogous to the pre-1939 Polish Corridor could be mitigated.

 

[capnvonbaron]

the computer will never-ever trade one of its cities for a tech in peace time.

You will (generally) only get a civ to give you cities if it's entire existence depends on making peace when you are wiping it out. Even then, I've never had it give me anything but crappy outskirt cities with few improvements and little population, or cities it captured from me or other civs.

Which is fine... I can always abandon the ones I don't want. And its fewer cities that I have to capture later.

 

[Looksitabear]

Me--I never been able to get a civ to give up one of their "hard earned" cities.

Ever.

 

[Sharwood]

Me--I never been able to get a civ to give up one of their "hard earned" cities.

Ever.

They won't trade them, you have to extort them. It can be done, if you're powerful enough, or if you've just humiliated them in a war.

 

[TheOverseer714]

But even then, they usually give you useless tundra or swamp towns. They will never give away a town with a strategic or luxury resource. I've also never got a core city.

 

[Sharwood]

But even then, they usually give you useless tundra or swamp towns. They will never give away a town with a strategic or luxury resource. I've also never got a core city.

It can be done, but as I said, rarely, and almost certainly not later in the game.

 

[eldar]

It can be done, but as I said, rarely, and almost certainly not later in the game.

Try renegotiating peace; if you're more powerful than they are, they will more likely cough up a better deal than from just a straight demand.

To do this, open negotiations with the Civ in question, and on the bottom of the trade table click on "Active". "Peace Treaty" will be one of the active deals, unless you're at war with them, in which case it won't be. Any other deals you have going will also be there; if they've still got turns to run then the number of turns left will be in brackets. E.g. "Right Of Passage (15)" says there are 15 turns of a RoP agreement still to run.

Anyway - assuming you're at peace, and "Peace Treaty" is therefore available, click on "Peace Treaty". You'll get a concerned Adviser popping up asking if you really want to renegotiate Peace, well, you do, so go ahead. Now put demands, deals, whatever on the table as normal until you get a deal you're happy with.

Disadvantages:
1. Sometimes, the AI will only offer a straight Peace Treaty. Generally speaking, to get something, make sure your Military Adviser says that your military is stronger than theirs.
2. This deal lasts for 20 turns, and just like any other 20-turn deal, there are negative consequences to your reputation should you break it and declare war. So only make a deal like this if you want to remain at peace for 20+ turns. Also try to tie the peace deal with hard goods i.e. cash, slaves, cities, techs*. If per-turn cash payments are involved, after 20 turns, the AI will re-negotiate and you'll be forced into another 20-turn peace treaty.

* As usual, there's one big exception, the Peace Treaty+Alliance trick. The idea here is that during the 20 turns, the Civ in question will sign a truce with the Civ the alliance is against, thus breaking the treaty, declaring war on you, and giving you War Happiness.

 

[pol1]

But even then, they usually give you useless tundra or swamp towns. They will never give away a town with a strategic or luxury resource. I've also never got a core city.

the good thing of that situation is, that You can get those crappy remote island towns, possibly on one-tile islands.
that greatly reduces the time to eliminate the civ.

 

[Sharwood]

Try renegotiating peace; if you're more powerful than they are, they will more likely cough up a better deal than from just a straight demand.

To do this, open negotiations with the Civ in question, and on the bottom of the trade table click on "Active". "Peace Treaty" will be one of the active deals, unless you're at war with them, in which case it won't be. Any other deals you have going will also be there; if they've still got turns to run then the number of turns left will be in brackets. E.g. "Right Of Passage (15)" says there are 15 turns of a RoP agreement still to run.

Anyway - assuming you're at peace, and "Peace Treaty" is therefore available, click on "Peace Treaty". You'll get a concerned Adviser popping up asking if you really want to renegotiate Peace, well, you do, so go ahead. Now put demands, deals, whatever on the table as normal until you get a deal you're happy with.

Disadvantages:
1. Sometimes, the AI will only offer a straight Peace Treaty. Generally speaking, to get something, make sure your Military Adviser says that your military is stronger than theirs.
2. This deal lasts for 20 turns, and just like any other 20-turn deal, there are negative consequences to your reputation should you break it and declare war. So only make a deal like this if you want to remain at peace for 20+ turns. Also try to tie the peace deal with hard goods i.e. cash, slaves, cities, techs*. If per-turn cash payments are involved, after 20 turns, the AI will re-negotiate and you'll be forced into another 20-turn peace treaty.

* As usual, there's one big exception, the Peace Treaty+Alliance trick. The idea here is that during the 20 turns, the Civ in question will sign a truce with the Civ the alliance is against, thus breaking the treaty, declaring war on you, and giving you War Happiness.

Why are you quoting me for that? And you do realise I was talking about getting free cities, right? You can't get them by your method, they can't be traded for anything outside of a peace treaty in wartime.