Legality of declearation of war?

[Cheetah]

EDIT: This poll was simply to find out if someone should be punnished. Punnishments include everything from warnings and up. The decission of what kind of punnishment will come later. I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear enough.


I do not see much reason to punnish anyone. It has been clear for weeks that we want a war, so starting the war before the 48 hours passed was, even though it was against one article, was not a big crime.

However, I know I am not totaly objective here, as I too have opinions about this declearation.

See the High Court thread for more information.

So I would like input from the citisens: Should there be some punnishment for the action of declearing war?

 

[Goonie]

Can we please do this by the books? Let both side present their cases first.

And can you at least PRETEND to be neutral? It is clear what you think, but it should not be! You are the judge, and ask for our opinion, yet you give us yours immediately! You are not suppose to have one! Try and act responsibly.

I advocate for a warning.

 

[Goonie]

For some out of context quotes of mine from the other thread :

Did I say it was a big crime?

No. The fact that you say it was not a big crime leads me to believe that you still consider it a crime.

I think Rik did break a rule. Article O. The rule is right there for everyone to see. I think your office should isssue an official warning. While what he did posses no immediate threat or problem, a rule was still broken.

How can you ignore Article O like that?

I agree with the declaration, but I do not agree with the way it was declared. You can't ignore articles of the constitution.

At the same time, I do believe Rik was following the will of the people.

I am of the opinion that a warning should be issued to our Turn Player.

If this act goes unpunished it sets a precedent that is no good. In the future Turn Players might start interpreting polls when the results aren't crystal clear.

Shame on Cheetah for ignoring our constitution. If people don't like these rules, then let's SCRAP THEM! If we have them, let's follow them.

Anyone notice I have a really annoying posting style where I seem to be infatuated with pressing "enter?"

 

[Cheetah]

And can you at least PRETEND to be neutral? It is clear what you think, but it should not be! You are the judge, and ask for our opinion, yet you give us yours immediately! You are not suppose to have one! Try and act responsibly.

Sorry Goonie. I do try and act responsibly. This is a game, and in my honest opinion this crime is a bagatelle, and the discussion of it can only be lead to a bad atmosphere. I am confident that Rik will wait for a poll to finish next time.

I advocate for a warning.

Noted. That was supposed to go under some form of punnishment. Maybe that wasn't clear enough. I'll edit the first post.

Can we please do this by the books? Let both side present their cases first.

We are doing it by the books. I am supposed to handle all judicial matters of the county, including interpretation of the Constitution, laws, and Public Investigations. And so I am.

If any involved part feels like making a statement, or complain about having this thread at this time, go ahead. PM me or post in the High Court or this thread.

 

[Provolution]

No merit this is all I have to say .
By the way, we have some Mickey Mouse Club laws it is hard to take seriously.

We did have a grand strategy poll that won 70 % on a vote of confidence from COMA Rcoutme. We did have a war poll showing support for a declaration of war. Rik asked politely for us to give a fast track reapproval of the very turn to strike in 5 turns, and it ended up being the very turn we got 14 vs 2 votes. If Emp could have turned the wind of the argument, he should have done so in the war poll, but he lost there.
The turn initiation confirmation poll went on until we got this dramatic

What about bringing in an expert witness, a real life lawyer, let him assess the entire chain of events and process, and then make him come with a statement about our legal system, and this Kafka like case in particular. Rik did explicitly that he would run short notification war start polls after the succeded warpoll, and any objections should have been raised there. Pure neglect on responding to the presented procedure cannot be taken seriously, and will not be taken seriously.

End of story. No Merit. Vote No.

 

[akots]

The turnplayer is not in any article of the constitution. Actually, there is not even a law which governs the behavior of the turnplayer. All the laws pertain to the CoIA in this regard. This seems to me like a conflict of CoIA with the turnplayer which is actually not a good thing to have.

To me, it looks like since there is no definition of turnplayer under the current Constitution, there is no way ANY article of the Constitution pertains to the turnplayer. The temporary appointed official in charge of the game playing who has his appointment approved by the poll. With no other rights or duties except that of playing the turn and posting the log... hmm... nothing like this in the Constitution.

This whole discussion is highly inappropriate apparently. Since nobody is objecting to the direct violation of the Constitution by appointing the said turnplayer who is evidently acting to the good of the people and in accordance with the will of the people and following direct orders of the CoMA regarding troop movement.

I would say the case must be dismissed without hearing since there is no case. You cannot violate some law which does not exist.

 

[Goonie]

Article O akots.


And Provolution, even the laws are silly, we have to either obey them or discard them.


Cheetah, my problem was with you stating your personal beliefs in the first poll which is suppose to be neutral.

 

[Emp.Napoleon]

The turnplayer is not in any article of the constitution. Actually, there is not even a law which governs the behavior of the turnplayer. All the laws pertain to the CoIA in this regard. This seems to me like a conflict of CoIA with the turnplayer which is actually not a good thing to have.

To me, it looks like since there is no definition of turnplayer under the current Constitution, there is no way ANY article of the Constitution pertains to the turnplayer. The temporary appointed official in charge of the game playing who has his appointment approved by the poll. With no other rights or duties except that of playing the turn and posting the log... hmm... nothing like this in the Constitution.

I as CoIA have the right to appoint a deputy. He acts on those powers when he plays the turn. He is a public offical since he was confermed by the people, and thus is obligated by the laws of fallowing the will of the people. But the will of the people was obstured due to the lack of time to delcare war. And since this was the most recent poll, that one should have been finished, then war done. Therefore Artical O must be uphelp over Artical H, and in my opinon should always be.

This whole discussion is highly inappropriate apparently. Since nobody is objecting to the direct violation of the Constitution by appointing the said turnplayer who is evidently acting to the good of the people and in accordance with the will of the people and following direct orders of the CoMA regarding troop movement.

He was not fallowing the will of the people because we did not know the true will of the people due to the lack of time for the poll. And Artical O must have been completed also. Plus, the CoMA does not have the athority to delcare war. Since this was not an emergency, we did not activate Artical O Section I. And the CoMA also was obligated to fallow the first part of Artical O.


I think an offical warning is in order. I do think their should be a rather serious punishment for something like this due to impart of this, but to remove Rik or anyone else involved would be silly and overkill. After all, we got the best turnplayer in the world

 

[Matrix]

Adjective
I don't really care much for jurisdiction, but is this poll supposed to exist? Shouldn't both parties present their cases and Cheetah alone decide?

I second Goonie's notion that Cheetah ought to be neutral.
The problem is he was online and active in the chat when Rik played his turn declaring war on C3B.

Intrinsic
I think Emp.Napoleon is correct that the poll should've been open for 48 hours.
However, that would mean the savegame should've been held for the same amount of time as well, asking for postponement, etc.

The consideration is about whether it would've been worth doing the trouble holding up the save, also considering the fact that the outcome of the poll was very obvious in advance.

Finally I'd like to point out that the fact that our president is alone in his opinion on the poll's subject and continues to advocate this opinion on and on will probably prove to be political suicide. :suicide:

 

[RegentMan]

Article O
Treaties and agreements with foreign nations may be ratified by
Fanatica with a poll open for minimum 48 hours. A simple
majority of voters is required to ratify the treaty or agreement.

Well, is a declaration of war actually a treaty or agreement? I fail to see how it is, so I don't understand how this article was violated. In fact, our constitution doesn't have a clear plan on declaring war.

Article H
All officials must plan and act according to the will of the people.

A 14-2-1 majority is more than enough to figure out the will of the people. Let's look at a history of polls and their voters.

DZ's Feudalistic Government Poll = 13 voters.
Declare War on C3B? Redone = 17 voters.
Declaration of War on C3B = 16 voters.
The Poll in Question = 17 voters.

Thus, we can see that the view of everyone who is active was expressed; the will of the people was done.

Article D
§3. The Consul of Foreign Affairs handles all diplomacy conducted
with foreign nations. This includes the negotiation of treaties
and trade agreements.

If a declaration of war was considered a "treaty" then Matrix hasn't been doing his job. He should have been the one setting up the war polls.

In short, I don't see how Rik, or anyone for that matter, violated anything. In fact, we need an article that clearly defines the process of declaring war. That way, little things like this won't rip our team apart.

 

[Provolution]

Hardly ripping a team apart, more some isolated legal acrobats ripping themselves apart.
If these want to keep their personal legal show going on, so be it, but I seriously doubt they will get more than a handful fans following the case eager for some legal punishment of sorts. The ones calling for this case should stick their fingers into the soil and sense where the people are standing.

 

[akots]

@Regent Man: It is indeed neither a treaty nor agreement. Thus, the punishment is obsolete for there is no crime committed.

 

[akots]

@Emp: You are certainly right but very informally however the matters of law require absolute formality down to the smallest issues.

I'm still bewildered as to how the CoIA can rant against his own deputy appointed at his complete good will ( ) and trying to make a case. I don't think this is worth a really great ruler of the state which Emp surely eagers to become.

But on the other hand, I came to gradually appreciating the stand off firm on the principle of belief whether this particular event is either good or bad for the team and the country. Hail to the Noble Emp! @Emp

I really began to believe you value the progress of the state much more than your own well-being as CoIA! This is indeed a thing that shows we have the worthy Emp!

 

[Goonie]

There are huge holes throughout our constitution.

Might I suggest we scrap it. No one seems to like it anyways. Since I arrived, it has only served to create problems rather than solve them.

 

[DaveShack]

Many people may have forgotton that this game even has a constitution.

Minimum time limits on polls are intended to ensure that all active citizens have a chance to get their vote counted. The spirit of the law was followed, that it is extremely unlikely that the poll in question would have a different result if left open for another day. The letter of the law may have been broken, but the real problem is that the law itself fails to provide an exception for cases where most or all of the citizens have already voted.

My recommendation on an action to follow would be to remind everyone that there are rules and if you're in a position of authority you'd better become familiar with them. And the rules need to be changed to account for the possibility that all votes are cast early.

I won't vote because it isn't clear that having a poll like this one is appropriate.

 

[Donovan Zoi]

Laws? What laws?

Like we are going to get enough people to vote against an action they all wanted in the first place. I too would argue against the Constitutionality of the actions but it seems like a waste of time. Besides I think we agreed along time ago that we wouldn't let laws interfere with the comeraderie of this team. Yet to make trouble where no political conflict lies in the first place certainly does not serve anyone's interest. The war was a near unanimous choice.

So what if we jumped the gun? We did it to keep the turn moving expediently. That said, I voted that everyone should be punished, including myself. Now let's move on, shall we?

EDIT: Shoot, already voted Abstain. Oh well, the sentiment still stands..........

 

[Hygro]

Yes, Donovan, I too remember arguing against too strict a set of laws for a group of our size and familiarity. I even argued against a constitution in the first place.

 

[magnusmarcus]

Can someone explain to me again how *this* negatively impacted our ability to play this game? I guess I'm just slow when it comes to reading legalese bullpoopy.

But if Rik or others need to be "Punnished" can I be the "Punnisher"? Ever since this war thing I've had nothing to do as ambassador. Please don't confuse this with the "Punisher" which is comic book character and now a movie.

As "Punnisher" I could bring arguments to the chief of the Justice that when resolved would serve no purpose. Oh wait it appears that position is already taken. My bad.

As a wise man once told me.... No harm. No foul. Play ball!

 

[Rik Meleet]

kinda funny. I don't plan, nor decide and am in a Puppet-poisition as turnplayer and now this puppet goes to court.

But then again; me, and only me decided the moment in time the save was to be played, and that was too early. Thus: I think it is fairer to accuse me of playing the save at an inappropriate time" (too early) than for declaring war as "playing the save at the moment it was played was the only decision I took in these matters.

BTW I think it is only fair that I Abstain in this poll.

 

[Provolution]

LOL, this call for trial is indeed political suicide

Kind of sad, really.