Let's talk Centaurs

[WCH]

Stirrups is the required tech for Horse Archers, and therefore also for Centaur Archers. This is straightforwardly explained via the text when you get the tech... it's essentially impossible to fire a bow while gripping a horse between your thighs, so the invention of stirrups allows horsemen to stand and therefore to shoot. Obviously a centaur would not be similarly limited, but they have the same tech requirement (for balance, no doubt).

Anyone have any ideas for how to make this make sense? Striking the Stirrups req is the simplest way and would make sense in terms of flavour, but would probably overpower the Kurios.

Also, the upgrade lines are kind of wonky because of the chariot/horseman split. Centaur with spear upgrades to Centaur with bow and then back to Centaur with spear? Odd. Would be cool to split it fully into a melee line and a ranged line, both differentiated from the Horseman - Knight and Chariot lines.

 

[JonathanStrange]

IMO, the Stirrups technology is a pretty pricey research item and removing it as a prerequisite would help Dragon Boy's centaurs but I don't think it'd be overpowering. The AI still wouldn't use them well. Still, to balance things (and I'm just speculating so just say Neigh instead of winging some clothyard arrows my way) maybe the production cost hammers might be increased for centaur archers?

(BTW, while it may be difficult (or impossible, how do I know?) to shoot from a moving horse without using stirrups, one could still shoot while mounted and unmoving. Right? You horse archers feel free to weigh in here.)

Personally, offhand I can't think of a particularly persuasive mythos reason for requiring Stirrups for centaurs. That shoud be one of perks of being half-man, half-horse. If anything the horseboys would NOT like stirrups 'cause it would give people the wrong idea.

Heh. Maybe make the arrow holder (the "quiver") a new tech that the centaurs must attain (the dolts) or maybe say the centaurs have a cultural prejudice against using missile weapons and what they're researching is not Stirrups but "The Way of The Bow" and charge 'em 75% of the costs that stirrups take.

 

[HadesScorn]

Look for a revamped unit line for the Kuriotates in [module]Civ Unique Wonder. This has also bothered me, along with the fact that the "inclusive" civ of Erebus has exactly one type of unit to represent it. As of right now, v0.11 will have the first look at the new units and tech tree. A working alpha will *hopefully* be up this weekend assuming I don't get tasked something else again.

For the main mod, you're effectively sunk as its in feature lock.

 

[Emptiness]

Heh. Maybe make the arrow holder (the "quiver") a new tech that the centaurs must attain (the dolts) or maybe say the centaurs have a cultural prejudice against using missile weapons and what they're researching is not Stirrups but "The Way of The Bow" and charge 'em 75% of the costs that stirrups take.

How about we say "Stirrups" also happens to be, by coincidence, the Centaur word for "The Way of the Bow", and charge them 100% of the cost.

 

[JonathanStrange]

Well, that was easy...or was it?

 

[Onionsoilder]

I never really got why Kurios were the only civilization who can get Centaurs. I always thought it would be interesting if they had standard mounted units. Centaurs would ally themselves with the civilization who completes the Sign of Sagittarius ritual(only Good civilizations can build it), which grants two Centaur Archers and makes Centaurs of all types buildable. Heck, we could even expand this to include a ritual for each zodiac sign.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Centaurs, and Demihuman races in general, tend to suffer significant discrimination. These races are all abominations creations made by evil mages of the Age of Magic to form their armies, and the memory of their crimes is quite present in the minds of other races. The Centaurs are the most civilized of the demihumans and have been trying for centuries to overcome their bestial nature and become a noble people, but most civs are not willing to trust that they have really changed. They have fairly often slipped back into more barbarous ways, enjoying raids, wine, and orgies. Such behavior is most common where they are the most socially ostracized and oppressed by humans; when humanity rejects them, they are more likely to reject their own humanity and go wild. Centaurs, like most demihumans, are generally relegated to remote wildernesses. I get the impression that Cardith was the first to really give Centaurs a chance, to welcome them into his lands to long as they behave and to compel his settlers to help defend the Centaurs' wilderness homes rather than encroaching on their territory. Cardith is a very enlightened and tolerant despot, and the first human to really earn the respect (and fear) of the Centaur people. (I have no real basis for this, but I like to think that Cardith's family was actually killed in a Centaur raid (perhaps led by a younger Herne), that the centaur leaders who know this are terrified that he might find out, but that he actually has always known and forgave them long ago.)

 

[WCH]

Hey, don't go hating on wine and orgies. I don't imply your hobbies are inhuman.

 

[Humakty]

A horse having to overcome his bestial nature sounds strange. Really. Have you got bitten by one lately ? Terrific hunters, for sure, I don't want to get reincarnated in grass anymore, now that I've seen what horses do to them. Chilling...

 

[Fafnir13]

One way to think of it:
Centaurs are straight forward thinkers. They want to kill someone, they run up and stab the guy. Archers come around via archery tech, but the centaurs aren't really interested. Archers, after all, are guys who stand still. Totally goes against the centaur way of fighting.
Then some genius comes up with stirrups and suddenly the notion of mobile archers is realized. Centaurs go, "Hey! I could do that," and you get your new unit.

 

[popejubal]

Hey, don't go hating on wine and orgies. I don't imply your hobbies are inhuman.

He didn't say those were inhuman, just barbaric. I think it was a compliment.

 

[JonathanStrange]

One way to think of it:
Centaurs are straight forward thinkers. They want to kill someone, they run up and stab the guy. Archers come around via archery tech, but the centaurs aren't really interested. Archers, after all, are guys who stand still. Totally goes against the centaur way of fighting.
Then some genius comes up with stirrups and suddenly the notion of mobile archers is realized. Centaurs go, "Hey! I could do that," and you get your new unit.

That's a good way of putting it: having the centaurs realize that they could be the ultimate horse archers and that their traditional charging tactics aren't the only "acceptable" way to fight after seeing enemy horse archers. It'd even make sense if centaur archers become available after any encounter with enemy horse archers - 'cause centaurs still wouldn't need actual stirrups. Although for balance, it might still be rationalized that anti-bow sentiments need to be overcome and the tech researched anyway.

 

[Bad Player]

it's essentially impossible to fire a bow while gripping a horse between your thighs, so the invention of stirrups allows horsemen to stand and therefore to shoot.

The Parthians did it (and shooting backwards!!!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthian_shot

 

[Luckmann]

Centaurs, and Demihuman races in general, tend to suffer significant discrimination. These races are all abominations creations made by evil mages of the Age of Magic to form their armies, and the memory of their crimes is quite present in the minds of other races. The Centaurs are the most civilized of the demihumans and have been trying for centuries to overcome their bestial nature and become a noble people, but most civs are not willing to trust that they have really changed. They have fairly often slipped back into more barbarous ways, enjoying raids, wine, and orgies. Such behavior is most common where they are the most socially ostracized and oppressed by humans; when humanity rejects them, they are more likely to reject their own humanity and go wild. Centaurs, like most demihumans, are generally relegated to remote wildernesses. I get the impression that Cardith was the first to really give Centaurs a chance, to welcome them into his lands to long as they behave and to compel his settlers to help defend the Centaurs' wilderness homes rather than encroaching on their territory. Cardith is a very enlightened and tolerant despot, and the first human to really earn the respect (and fear) of the Centaur people. (I have no real basis for this, but I like to think that Cardith's family was actually killed in a Centaur raid (perhaps led by a younger Herne), that the centaur leaders who know this are terrified that he might find out, but that he actually has always known and forgave them long ago.)

I can totally buy that. But what kinda annoys me is that Centaurs is the only demihuman race available to Kuriotates. It's either humans, or Centaurs. They should've been mixed up a bit more in the "nice to other fantasy races" department.

 

[WCH]

Yes... so the question then is what are the other demihuman races which share a similar past to the centaurs? Fawns/Satyrs are already in the game... a Minotaur unit would be an interesting addition to say the least. Maybe even ogres?

 

[Tasunke]

naw ... the Kurios are scheduled to have Lamias for arcane, and mustevals (ferret-men) for the recon line. This is what they will have

 

[Fenboy]

The trouble has been getting an animator for the Lamias. We've been waiting for one since what, late 2006?

Mustevals have just been waiting on SeZereth to get around to modelling them (which he is doing now, yay!) They can be seen here two rows up from the bottom.

Also, I think reckon we should get a new name for them - in the original D&D Mustevals are a type of Guardinal; a pseudo-angel. They got picked because they look cool, but the background really doesn't fit.

 

[DarkxL0rd]

think about what's actually going on here. Have you ever tried running and firing a bow and arrow? can't imagine it's any easier for someone with 4 legs. stirrups create an anchor so that your knees can act as shocks to a gyrating horse. a centaur would be have no shocks to his own legs. not sure how this helps the thread, just saying... of all the fantasy creatures, i don't know why they made centaurs accomplished archers.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

It should be kept in mind that Fawns/Satyrs are not demihumans in the normal sense, but are actually Aasimar. They are not abominations made by Patrian mages be be their slaves and soldiers, but rather the children of mortal women and the Archangel of Nature Cernunnos, who would later go on to become a god. Well, I find it unlikely that any first generations Satyrs are still around (except maybe Yvain in the backstory I prefer to give him, as I never liked him being made a Treant and he was formerly described as "The Favorite son of Cernunnos"), but rather grandchildren many generations removed, but they are still of divine origin and are greatly admired by those who worship nature whereas real demihumans are seem as crimes against nature.

 

[Jet]

i don't know why they made centaurs accomplished archers.

Maybe because of steppe archers, but who knows.

This is Toxotes, whom most say is a Centaur; others deny this because he does not appear to be four-footed, but rather standing and shooting, and none of the Centaurs uses a bow.