Level up: Emperor & Immortal with 4 games

[Fippy]

Hmm i would say it's very tempting with that far west area, pigs + furs + floodplains is worth any maintenance cost later.
Maybe keep your warrior there, and if it's still free after securing the cities east you can try moving a settler over?
If too late, that settler could be used for the sheep spot north.

Oracle try is fine imo with knowing myst already, would use meditation ~~

 

[Gasp]

If I both try Oracle and settling eastern cities it'll take some time until I get 3 settlers. Also I have to build units here and there for defense and security against Willem. This dude will attack me unless we suddenly share religion.

 

[Major Tom]

Hi Gasp, I am following your writeups as they are well told and also for the pros comments.

I am a imm player on a good day, but like to throw in a couple of cents anyway. I hardly pursue early wonders as they limit expansion. Happiness are not a big deal as my initial cities usually are wipped down to size ~~2 in the beginning except the one with 2 scientists.

As for settling: Settling near Willys border is asking for immidiate war (the wine). For the pigs i would settle by the river south of where the warrior stands for instant traderoutes.

Good luck anyway

 

[Gasp]

I'm happy you found some interest in this thread. Thank you for your 2 cents and if I count right I have now received 12 cents they are important!

I thought again about the Oracle and I'm not sure I'll be able to get it. It could be gone even before I have PH. Plus the Oracle's tech delay Library (Madrassa in this case) and I have the possibility to reach size 6 with 2 GS in Mecca (with 1extra ) and later possibly in eastern FP cities.

Settling next to Willie is indeed an act of war so I have to be prepared by the time I'll settle (if I ever do) there. Bug Pig city is definitely a priority once I have secured eastern land. I disagree with your settle tile though I believe trade route is not effective because that river isn't one going in my empire. And if there is a road it's depending on OB with Willie. I'll need to be able to move units from Mecca to there so I may just road directly anyway. And settling by the river means I need a second border pop to grab Fur (which I'd like to have before that).

 

[Major Tom]

Right, did not notice the fur. However, If i can i always settle by the river for future traderoutes, health and who knows if the game is going to space then you got the juicy levee option. Am a little unsecure at the moment, but do we really need OB for it to work ( not Willys cash but for pig and fur transport, asuming sailing online and river connects.)?
Settling on FP 1w perhaps an option.

 

[Major Tom]

And Gasp, by the way, elitetroops suggested competitive play. Highly recommended and hope to see you in the current Challenge and your advance up the Quattromaster ranking. Recently discovered HoF myself and it is fun with great UI for gamesearch. And I learn a lot from the submitted games.

 

[elitetroops]

I like that horse/pig spot! It's a bit far away, but it's definitely worth it anyway. I think I would settle by the river, unless I'm really desperate for the happiness from fur. On an inland sea map you should quite soon have access to resource trades with all AI, and on immortal you usually get monarchy in trade quite early, so that fur might not be as badly needed anymore by the time you would have it improved. And fur tiles are just crap to work (looks like it's tundra, not sure from pic), riverside grassland is better.

And Gasp, by the way, elitetroops suggested competitive play.

Oh, did I? I mean, sure, competitive games are a lot of fun, don't really play anything else myself anymore. Both HoF and GOTM are great formats. Hopefully there should still be a SGOTM starting, those are the best of all for learning purposes. But playing these "regular games" in S&T is also important. GOTM/SGOTM feature heavily cooked maps and usually extra goals to achieve outside the regular victory conditions. HoF is a lot about optimizing map and game settings, and hand picking the right opponents. Getting the basics down with basic map types, random maps and random opponents is also very important. Plus, in an S&T game you can experiment with different strategies and reload to play out different options, which also is great for learning. Basically, a shadow game in S&T develops basic skills that help with all game types, competitive games add extra skill elements that are more specific to the format.

 

[Gumbolt]

Yes if you believe the Ai will get monarchy early take another tech from Oracle. (Something you can trade for monarchy.) COL? Aesth? Check preq techs.

 

[Gasp]

And Gasp, by the way, elitetroops suggested competitive play. Highly recommended and hope to see you in the current Challenge and your advance up the Quattromaster ranking. Recently discovered HoF myself and it is fun with great UI for gamesearch. And I learn a lot from the submitted games.

I'll try this thanks for the reminder. Last time I wanted to play a HoF game it didn't work though. We'll see later for competitive games

I think I would settle by the river, unless I'm really desperate for the happiness from fur.

There is always religion for happiness. With Pascal close to me I'll at least have 1 religion soon.. now it doesn't mean I'll convert.

Yes if you believe the Ai will get monarchy early take another tech from Oracle. (Something you can trade for monarchy.) COL? Aesth? Check preq techs.

Gumbolt you really want me to build the Oracle I get it I'm not convinced if I want to try it or not. I could build it a bit before T70 perhaps. Isn't it late?
I was rather thinking to go for Writing now.
Actually I'm confused here. I don't know how to play this game haha. So I'm leaning toward expanding peacefully wonder-free. And when I settle that Pig/horse city I should get a good military tech to expand not-peacefully at all.

 

[Gumbolt]

Settling peacefully should be fine here. The fur can help with happiness. Hopefully with cottages you can eventually trade for monarchy or reach calendar. So skipping the med/ph route could put beakers into writing and your UB. Hopefully Dutch won't settle anywhere silly. AI tend to build Stonehenge before Oracle?

On higher levels you need to pick a strategy and stick to it. What is your ultimate plan here? Wait for UU and take out some AI? The Camel Archer will be less effective than cuirs. Cuirs ignore castles/walls. Castles will slow CA down massively. Getting CA early would be the key.

Play the game as you feel it. Don't be pressured into ideas if you think they won't work.

 

[elitetroops]

On higher levels you need to pick a strategy and stick to it.

This I would disagree with. I'd say you need to learn to adapt. Sure, it's good to have a long term plan, but if another opportunity comes up, which could lead to better results, you must also be prepared to change your plans. Deciding between cuirs or whatever else is quite irrelevant at this stage. At the very moment, the important decision is whether to do an early rush or not. If not, then how to break out later depends very much on how the situation develops. For now the focus should be on grabbing as much good land as possible.

Camel Archers could be fun, but it's a very tricky path to go. Knights are actually really good as long as the AI doesn't have Engineering. CAs are even better with extra withdrawal chance over the regular Knight. But getting to Guilds in time, without an early rush to boost development, is not very easy. I wouldn't recommend aiming for that on a first immortal attempt.

 

[Gasp]

Ok so I though about the game and I'm going to play after that.
Gumbolt's the Oracle plan wins. I think that's a boost I need for expansion. I'm going to try it but I think it'll be done in Damascus. I'll most likely chop 1 forest for settler/worker in Medina so there won't be enough left for the Oracle. Plus I want to chop and mine in Damascus.
I need 1 axe asap in Mecca.Then I try to do 2 settlers in Mecca for eastern future cities. Another 2 settlers will be necessary for western cities (depends on where Willie will settle around there and if that river goes on a bit further west).
Tech path is: Med > PH > Writing > Oracle Monarchy > get Alpha > Maths. Of course it all depends on when I could trade for Alpha here. We can aim for Construction. Of course the Oracle tech could be used on MC. This leads to early Guilds. We could trade for Monarchy and research Feudalism + Machinery.

Spoiler To T75 :

T51
Whip axe in Mecca (4>2 but regrow next turn)
We get AH
T52
Slider to 0%
Mecca does a granary
Worker pasture sheep
Worker road Pig for trade routes and will pasture
T53
T54
Willie founded Judaism in Utrecht (his closest city)

Spoiler :

T55
T56
Worker cottage a FP near Damascus
T57
Worker does the same near Medina
Worker in Medina out and will chop that grass hill
T58
T60
worker goes to PH copper
Medina uses chop for an axe and gives pig to Mecca
T61
Mecca is on a settler 5T left
T64
Medina built an axe and does a granary
Judaism spread to Damascus
We have PH
T65
Damascus whips a Granary
OB with Willie to explore his territory
T66
Damascus start the Oracle
T68
Baghdad settled on the PH east
T72
I have Writing
T75 here I stop

Spoiler :

Mecca could build a Madrassa now. But will most likely do an axe. I could 2-pop whip and put OF into a Madrassa.
The Oracle is 6T away (actually more like 4T because of 1 chop to come or less if I can whip)

Spoiler :

Settler out next turn in Medina is going to go west with axe from Mecca (more anticipation needed here to place a fogbuster NW)...

Spoiler :

Spoiler Tech trade :

Spoiler Stats :

Willie is weak we see 3 archers and 1 axe in Amsterdam and only 3 cities for now. He's been busy spreading religion. He made a friend with Cyrus though.

Spoiler :

Sorry for lack of info here. I didn't write a lot of actions.

Now I think we have good chances to get the Oracle. Not sure what tech to pick.
Shall I convert to Judaism?

 

[elitetroops]

A few comments based on what I see:
-Oracle is far from safe. Can be built any turn now. But if you do get it, I'd prefer MC over Monarchy. Much better trade bait.
-NW corner is too good not to settle. I'd want 2 settlers there asap.
-Unless you are under a lot of barb pressure, you can avoid hooking up copper until you've got enough warriors built for MP in your core. Using axes for that is very expensive and mostly unnecessary.
-You are not planning an early rush - barracks are not needed in a very long time. Those hammers should instead go into settlers/workers or fogbusters.
-Your fogbusting is very poor. You should have some warriors in the west instead of axes in your cities.
-You are building too many mines and in my opinion also too many cottages. PH mines are almost never worth it, grassland mines are still worse than grassland farms.
-Yes to Judaism. You need the happiness.

 

[Gumbolt]

Agree with Elite. Use warriors in cities for happiness. Axes fog busting. Cities that are fine with happiness don't need defenders.
It is a shame you hooked up the copper. Means building warriors is harder. Too early for warrior 4 to be exploring. He needs to be near the pigs site or a barb city will spawn there. You must of been fighting off barb units here. Use Dutch land to move settler to pigs.

Mecca should be using the pigs. Faster growth so you can whip the madras there. Another unit would also be good. Hammers into axe?

Agree with Elite every worker available should of been chopping Oracle. I hadn't realised how late 1000bc was. You discovered PH 1480bc? What was the delay here? You should of planned whips into the Oracle with max OF. Also had 2-3 chops timed for turn PH was teched. Plus 1-2 more ready after. 1000bc is very late!

Sailing for trade routes?
Don't be afraid to open borders with AI.
Gift pigs to Dutch. (Helps with diplo long term.)
Warrior 1 should head east to fog bust.

 

[Gasp]

-NW corner is too good not to settle. I'd want 2 settlers there asap.

Do you think 2S1W of Horse and 1SE of Corn are good settling locations? Or too far?

Spoiler :

-You are building too many mines and in my opinion also too many cottages. PH mines are almost never worth it, grassland mines are still worse than grassland farms.

Are you saying I should rather chop forest than cottage or mine? And maintain cities at lower pop? I try to avoid working unimproved tiles so either I do something or them or I have to whip more. I could be too nice with the whip?

Edit: Gumbolt answered pretty much everything here

 

[Gumbolt]

If you are planning cottages for your capital the grassland river forests should be chopped.

Personally I don't mind cottages on flood plains. Some grassland farms are good for growth in places.

Are you planning a bureau cottage capital here?

29+84+20=133. Last chop will effectively complete Oracle in 3 turns.

 

[Gasp]

Yes Mecca will be a nice bureau capital I think. I have to cottage northern river tiles. They could be shared with the future NW sheep city.
I can trade for Sailing probably. Pascal for Fishing against PH and Willem for sailing with what I can trade.
Let's hope for the best with the Oracle: 3 turns to go.

 

[Fippy]

umm you guys are forgetting we have no hunting here yet, he can build warriors still with copper Also 1 copper was riverside, so no choice.

And yup if you switch into Juda now, the Axe in Mecca can get on it's way already for NW corner.
Also the one in Medina should move there.

Madrassa in Mecca is good, most important city for one (palace beakers).
Other cities can cover other needs.
You could whip a final settler in Mecca (into madrassa), or use Damascus after Oracle.

Scouting with warriors hurts you more than it does good on map scripts where you meet all AIs anyways. They cost gold, are not used as military police which would be good, and that info does not much

 

[Gasp]

Let's load T75 save and play a bit. I actually played these a few days ago but never found time to continue so far.

Spoiler some little turns :

T75 I do some corrections
Switch to Juda
Trade PH v. Fishing from Pascal
Mecca works Pig. Now Settler or Madrassa? I have a possibility to chop in 5T. Let's do a Settler!
Move warrior 1 east
Move axe from Damascus to Mecca
2 axes heading NW

T76
Settler is out in Medina. Heading NW through Willie
Medina does a Warrior
Axe from Mecca kills a barb NW of green copper and sees another one...

T77
Mecca whip settler
Medina does another warrior
Get Sailing from Willie (should have done this earlier)
Settle Najran on the coast SE

T78
Mecca does a Madrassa
Move settler N of Mecca to settle sheep city #2
Move an axe also for that barb warrior
Settler party through Willie goes on
Medina does a Forge
Worker starts chop for Damascus
Damascus completes the Oracle we choose MC. Now: Forge/worker/settler? I pick worker (5T)
Trade MC for what? I can get Alpha + Masonry from Willie. That's good enough.
I have the possibility to switch slider to 100% for some turns. I lean toward Math.

Sury and Cyrus don"t have Alpha yet. I could get IW, Poly and Hunting from them. We don't want hunting as Fippy pointed out.

T79
Trade Alpha for IW from Sury
Toku has Monarchy but won’t trade of course let’s hope someone else has it soon

T80
Settling Kufah and Basra. We beat Willie there for 1T.

Spoiler :

Whip Madrassa in Mecca and worker in Damascus: OF will go into a Forge
I’ll need another worker, Medina will do one at some point

T81
New worker goes to Kufah
Pascal is Annoyed

T82
I start a chop for Basra. It will go into a Granary and not the Monument I think.
Note for myself: check worked tiles (it's been a few turns)

End of turnset

Spoiler Arabian empire :

Spoiler Tech status :

I’m probably a target for Pascal in a not too distant future. Shall I already plan a defensive strategy?
Also shall I settle more cities NW? I settled Basra instead because I was not convinced about another city far west at the moment.
What do you think I should research?

 

[Gumbolt]

You don't need both axes fog busting. Axe 1 move 1S. The other can move elsewhere.

Axe 3 to baghdad? It will need an MP unit in 5 turns. You could even switch baghdad to a madrassa. 28 h into grannary is almost a perfect 2 pop whip into madrassa.

At some point you need to scout out Mayans. Not in war mode yet. You could gift them pigs. You have no health issues here. Pends how eager you are to get them to cautious or pleased.

Your building a few forges. Could be useful i guess. Your capital needs to grow a bit here.

Kufah location. Not sure this site is ideal if you wanted the fur. I guess with madrassa it can get 100 culture sooner. No great way to pick up all the food resources here. Guess you gained a flood plains. Plus river for trade routes. No corn or copper. Settling city to grab these is questionable as you get 6 void tiles off map.

Your heading for maths? Are you still planning to rush an AI here?