Level up: Emperor & Immortal with 4 games

[Gasp]

Monarchy it is then lets hope as you say that Louis will have it for trade soon and will be willing to trade it to me.
Just one question about what to build in cities. Appart from Barracks and units they have nothing to grow on for a while (until Library). I don't want to have too many units so what should I prioritize? Slow growth while building workers ?

 

[sampsa]

Yes that is an issue. If nothing else, barracks. Since you probably want some libraries, it might be good to just grow into unhappiness in these cities and 3-pop whip library when at writing. You could build some quechua in anticipation of monarchy/HR but wouldn't want to pay upkeep for these. Check F2 screen to see if you are paying unit upkeep.

Oh yes and one thing I didn't mention earlier: binary research. Stay at 0% slider until you have enough gold to complete writing by going 100% slider. Often being at somewhere between 0% and 100% loses 1.

 

[Pedro78]

Spoiler turn 64 :

· After the worker is done chopping the first settler, he goes to the river corn and improves it. Settler OF into SH and grows back to size 4 to 2whip another one. 2nd city grows on SH and will 1pop whip a worker.

· Wheel-Pottery-AH-Writing

· Cuzco built/whipped/chopped all the settlers, Tiwanaku 1whipped every worker but one

· Got these river cottages online ASAP, and started chopping/whipping Terraces, basic city micro stuff… not much to explain, it will all be quite apparent in the saves

· After City #3 was settled I chopped a bunch of forests into SH and got ~200 gold from it around T50. Was extremely helpful and I didn’t want to settle more cities before Pottery, only wanted the first 3 ASAP because Charly could have taken them.

· Misc. stuff: note that I didn’t improve the dry rice, not worth the early worker turns. Look at where I placed my Quechuas so I’m completely safe from the barbs (not safe from a barb Axe but it’s Emperor not deity). Look at my city placement, overlap is key, especially on higher difficulties, and here it's even better because you have way too much food.

· My micro was far from perfect but I still think it would benefit you to check the saves so you can see the tile improvements etc.

Spoiler screenshots :

Now Cuzco will chop a library and run scientists.

6th city settled next turn, I won’t expand anymore, I’ll have very good research with the current land already, and lots of food means lots of hammers. From now tech path will be Alpha-MC-Aesth-Machinery-Construction. Trade for IW and maths, bulb Engineering and roll over the map. Jungle land is not worth it in this case, even though it’s pretty juicy. Don't forget that you have to skip fishing to bulb Engi. Oh and I'm not sure trebs are required on Emp but I like it because it's a strategy that works on any difficulty level.

Haven’t looked at your writeup/saves yet, will check them out and comment in a moment.

Edit - Oh and aren't you guys pushing it a bit about levees? They certainly aren't a factor when settling a city in the early game, but late game they're extremely strong. Y'all just playing too many IMM games that are over at 1000 AD

 

[Lexicus]

Oh yes and one thing I didn't mention earlier: binary research. Stay at 0% slider until you have enough gold to complete writing by going 100% slider. Often being at somewhere between 0% and 100% loses 1.

Actually, I have a more general question about this. Do you always get maximum benefit from running 100% at the slider? I often seem to see maximum gold/science efficiency at lower percentages. I've definitely seen scenarios where I e.g. bump the science slider up 10% and lose more gpt than I gain in bpt. I think this must be happening because of gold modifiers, particularly as it only seems to be a factor in the mid-late game. But I have been running deficit research at lower than 100% sometimes because it seems more efficient to research the tech in, say, 3 or 4 fewer turns (obviously things like key military techs are an exception to this rule, you just want to get those ASAP) but have an extra 1000 gold at the end.

I only ever build markets or grocers in my capital, but I capture them a lot from the AI.

 

[Fippy]

I would say with an Ind & myst starter civ, Oracle is very strong.
Could take Monarchy if happy is your biggest worry

 

[sampsa]

Actually, I have a more general question about this. Do you always get maximum benefit from running 100% at the slider? I often seem to see maximum gold/science efficiency at lower percentages. I've definitely seen scenarios where I e.g. bump the science slider up 10% and lose more gpt than I gain in bpt. I think this must be happening because of gold modifiers, particularly as it only seems to be a factor in the mid-late game.

It is possible that you bump the science slider up 10% and lose more gpt than gain in bpt (this only means you have more -multipliers than -multipliers). However, there are only two slider settings where you never lose or due to rounding, and that is what matters.

But I have been running deficit research at lower than 100% sometimes because it seems more efficient to research the tech in, say, 3 or 4 fewer turns (obviously things like key military techs are an exception to this rule, you just want to get those ASAP) but have an extra 1000 gold at the end.

I do not understand what you mean. Can't this be achieved also with normal binary research?

Oh and aren't you guys pushing it a bit about levees? They certainly aren't a factor when settling a city in the early game, but late game they're extremely strong. Y'all just playing too many IMM games that are over at 1000 AD

Oh I'm sure they are strong. Who knows maybe in a few years I'll build my first space ship part.

 

[Pedro78]

I would say with an Ind & myst starter civ, Oracle is very strong.
Could take Monarchy if happy is your biggest worry

With such low early commerce and so much good land to settle/improve? A standard opener is waay stronger here. Unless you meant going for the Oracle after BW+Pottery?

 

[Fippy]

Well it's Emperor, no need to beeline Oracle
But after basic techs are researched, why not?

 

[Pedro78]

@Gasp about your game -

Spoiler :

• The PH for Ollytambo is nice, but then you have useless double food in Machu Picchu. Placing it 1E would solve that "problem" and allow one more city 3N of Cuzco sharing one corn to get the gems. With terraces and the ability to borrow one corn from Cuzco early on, not having the food in the first ring isn't a concern.
• You've had Pottery for almost 20 turns already and still only one cottage! You're FIN and have tons of riverside tiles, and are working a bunch of unimproved tiles. The answer to that is whip and cottage. Mines are useless improvements in this case, the whip is much stronger when you have enough food.
• You have too many Qs and they're not placed on the right spots (see what I previously said about fogbusting)

Not much else to add as Sampsa already gave very good advice. Just compare our T64 saves and see what you could have done differently - it's not about micro but about general strategy here.

Monarchy? I don't know, I hate to self-tech it on pangaeas as the AI will always trade it. On emperor you might have to self-tech it, but then you can also rush somebody, these AIs are all very weak. Not sure why they're not expanding, that's weird... I certainly wouldn't wait for cuirs here, with these beautiful cities sitting and waiting to be whipped.

@Fippy You're right. Oracle didn't even cross my mind when I played the game lol. I guess I can still get it now, but feels like cheating.
@sampsa no need to wait for years, spaceships are cool and it only takes a few dozens of hours to build them

 

[Lexicus]

I do not understand what you mean. Can't this be achieved also with normal binary research?

Well, I think it might just be a peculiarity of the rounding and multipliers, because the answer was no. I'll have to play a game and hope the situation happens to give exact numbers and explain properly, I guess. Basically I think with the rounding and gold/science multipliers you can get into situations where the ratio of beakers you can get from adding a deficit of 1 gold per turn actually decreases when the science slider is too high. Because I seem to remember thinking that obviously binary research would be better, but running the slider at 100% costed proportionally greater gold so that it actually would have taken more turns to generate the required gold at 0% science and then research the tech at 100% science, than it would to just research the tech at 70% science.

Does this make sense? Is this even possible or is it some problem with me or my memory?

And also sorry if I'm derailing this thread, can move this into another thread if it's annoying anyone.

 

[sampsa]

Well, I think it might just be a peculiarity of the rounding and multipliers, because the answer was no. I'll have to play a game and hope the situation happens to give exact numbers and explain properly, I guess. Basically I think with the rounding and gold/science multipliers you can get into situations where the ratio of beakers you can get from adding a deficit of 1 gold per turn actually decreases when the science slider is too high. Because I seem to remember thinking that obviously binary research would be better, but running the slider at 100% costed proportionally greater gold so that it actually would have taken more turns to generate the required gold at 0% science and then research the tech at 100% science, than it would to just research the tech at 70% science.

Does this make sense? Is this even possible or is it some problem with me or my memory?

It is not possible, because of the way slider works. There is no way to "win" by running slider say (80-80-80-80-80) vs (0-100-100-100-100). The maximum difference between these two is a mere 5, due to rounding, and the latter is not losing. If beakers are "lost" somewhere, they are in the overflow for the next tech.

One thing that might be causing this misunderstanding is the city governor, as it seems to switch tiles when you change slider position.

One extra remark: I've read that some people think you should always be running at least 10% slider in order not to lose bonuses (say +20% for having a pre-req, +5% for every civ that already knows the tech), but also this is incorrect. For example (10*10) vs (9*0 and 1*100) slightly wins for the latter, no matter what bonuses you have.

All in all, I think it really matters in the BCs (because then every lost due to rounding hurts), but even after that binary research is a good habit and allows you to commit your research choice later.

 

[NineOneSix]

Also by accumulating the gold to research your next tech at 100% slider, an AI might get it while you wait. This can give you a bonus % when research is turned back on. Always nice to see when it happens. (Unless its music or lib of course! )

 

[Gasp]

I was scared Emperor would not be interesting enough but I'm happy to see many people here!

@Pedro78
I checked your saves and you're truly more advanced (you have Writing T64 when i'm starting to research it). Failgold is something i don't usually do and I have to integrate this mechanic in my game as it's very efficient. When you said HS, it stands for Hagia Sophia right ? (not too familiar with acronyms).
You say it's not about micro but I noticed (when playing a few other starts) that Emperor is probably the first level you really have to pay attention to which tile a city is working. Thing is I don't have this reflex and sampsa showed here that I was working wrong tiles.

Another thing is I do mistakes just because I forget to check some things such as research slider. If I know I should do binary research, it happens that I leave my slider to 100% or even to 0% for too many turns
Finally i believe I have a problem with workers. I am reluctant to build many (enough) and prefer to play with a very few. This is certainly a mistake as difficulty level increase because you need a lot more for research. This may also explain why I have too many Qs

So I'm going to see if Oracle is an option. And I really want to get rid of Charly because I think he's an easy target. Not sure I'll will do it because if I fail I may lose the game

 

[sampsa]

He says SH, stands for Stonehenge. Hagia Sophia is unlocked way later, by theology I think. Yes failgold is useful, even at 1:1 ratio. Here you are industrious, so the ratio is 1:1,5.

Basic empire management (I would definitely not be calling that micro-management, though many do) can be a tough task at first, as you have many things to control, but you will learn to do it and it skyrockets your playing strength.

In this game your workers have a lot to do (improve food, cottage, chop) so you probably need quite many, probably over 1 per city. If you are working unimproved tiles you probably have too few workers. If you have many unworked improved tiles you have too many or are using them for the wrong things.

Yes I think you still can go for Oracle, it's not a disaster if you miss it as Oracle techs go towards the useful monarchy. I don't know why you think Charly is an easy target, he is protective (they love to settle on hills, too) and has a 6/10 unitbuildprob. In general my advice would be to just focus on managing your empire for now and not give much thought to attacking or blocking the AIs, because with strong basic empire management you'll soon realize how easy warring later will be (construction? or even way later like cuirassiers), when you have a big tech lead.

 

[Gasp]

So I did a long turnset again, just didn't think too much when I should stop. it's T120 now.

I missed Oracle for a few turns BTW, Louis got it... I got 64 from it

Spoiler T64 to T120 :

Pictures talk better than me

My empire

Spoiler Relationship :

Spoiler Tech :

Spoiler Stats :

Spoiler Aren't they annoying eating my territory? :

So no attack right away, I got Monarchy from Pericles whom turns out to be a good trading partner.
I believe its only metal is the Iron we see in the last screenshot which is a good info in case he gets angry at me. This dude founded Confu... I thought he would be Buddhist too.
On the other side on the continent Louis and Charly were at war and I refused to participate. This is why Charly isn't Pleased with me. I believe I'll have another opportunity to join a war maybe with Pericles because appart from the Chinese no one likes Louis.

Next turn I have construction and in 6 turns Engineering. I guess my cities will soon queue military units until I have Theology (for exp) and I should get rid of my sweet neighbors.

@sampsa
You're right about Charly, plus I won't attack me at Pleased. But he's so weak. On the other hand he doesn't have a shrine yet so I gain nothing from taking his jungle cities. And he's a buffer between me and Hindu people.

 

[Fippy]

Pericles is great for trading yep, gives techs away with only 10% knowing them (so only one other AI needs to know that tech) and has low we fear you are becoming too advanced. Always a favorite to put into HoF games, with Mansa

 

[sampsa]

Yeah that's a really long turnset, but I think things went mostly according to the plan. Some things you could have done a bit better:

• grow your cities bigger (to the -cap) after you have HR or in other ways enough . You should be working even more cottages (thus no mines, maybe should have built an extra worker or two). If going peaceful in the BCs, I'd aim to have at least my capital to be at least size 10 by 1AD. Maybe size 15 with this land.
• I would have just declared on Louis when asked to. Why not? He's not of any use to you anyway. A pleased Charlie would be worth something. Not having any pleased AIs by 1AD is a bit alarming, although not sure if it matters here at all.
• will be a bit late, you could have started running them a bit earlier.

Anyway, looks like you are on your way to a crushing victory.

 

[Gasp]

Yep agreed. i'm always late with scientists ! i'm building a Scout because I'm also late on exploring the continent, i fear that Chinese empire is going to be even bigger.

Charly and Louis are going to war very soon, they hate each other so I guess I'm just going to build trebs and swords (or knights) and go for Louis, maybe even before Theocracy. What do you think is the best strategy to build an army now (they'll have Longbows and maybe Maceman) ?

Another thing about INDustrious. I'm not making profit from this leader trait. Should I put some hammers in The Parthenon, Notre Dame ? Or is it not good with war timing ?

 

[sampsa]

What you need to win the game via conquest (this is obviously not the only way to win, but probably the fastest)

• enough trebs and units to protect them and to actually take cities. Axes, spears, swords, phants, HAs, knights... These will be probably be whipped in every city. Maybe one or two cities can focus on cottages though. Theocracy is good, but not mandatory. Vassalage is also an option.
• feudalism to capitulate them. Of course if you see a good city you can keep it.
• optics-astronomy to find the final two AIs. Enough galleons to transport troops.

As for who is the first victim, I think you could just start with Pericles? Low unitbuildprob and has no friends. He might be a useful vassal, too. Then just plow through like a freight train, Charlie is closest so possibly him and so on.

Probably fail gold is no longer that useful, I mean putting into something else than units now feels counter-intuitive. At least you had nice, cheap forges.

 

[Gasp]

Alright, I'll follow your advice and start with Pericles