[LH] Josip Broz Tito

[Partizanac]

First of all, I have bad English because I live in my homeland! and my native language is Serbian, and its rude saying to a person he speaks a language thats not his native bad!
Second, first you say Kosovo's monastery's are catholic then converted to Orthodox and now you say Saint Sava builted them... I see you really did your research

During WWII Kosova was united with Albania, since the Germans recognized the Illyrian ancestry of both peoples and sought to bring them together

You mean Nazy Germany they gave them Kosovo cause Serbs said no to pact with Germans... you see our young king signed a paper that said Yugoslavian Kingdom is in pact with a threesome alliance (Germany, Italy & Japan) Croats where happy slovens also but Serbs where mad, they protested and when Hitler heard that he ordered to bomb Belgrade and they did, they leveled the city with no declaration of war! and Hitler in that rage gave Croatia independence with Slovenia, Backa(Vojvodina) & Bosnia, they gave Macedonia to Bulgaria and Kosovo to Albanians, Serbia was left to rotten until Chetniks came to rule (thats another story).

No, it is not like saying you are a Roman. A Serb saying he is a Roman is like an American saying he is a Native American. Just because you live in the same land once inhabited by an ancient people, does not mean you are one of those people. An Albanian is the descendant of an ancient Illyrian. Not just because he lives in that same land, but because his ancestors were those people!

Romans lived here, so that means Roman gens are still here... they can't just pass away? Romans where not exterminated they stayed here and mixed with the other nations! so I can say Serbs have Roman gens and Serbs are Romans... Albanians are not Illyrian!

In ancient times, before the Serbs existed and came to the Balkans, the inhabitants of the region of Kosova were ancient Illyrians. To be exact, they were known as Dardanians, since they were Illyrians of the Dardani tribes.

So what!? you want everything back like in the ancient times? you live in a dream world! so Montenegro and croatia and Bosnia should be Albania?

Albania wouldn't even existed if it weren't for the Italians, after the Balkan Wars... Northen half of Albania should have bean Serbian and southern Greek... but Albania hated the fact that little Russia would have access to the sea... and the suggested that there should be a new county under there rule! and it was granted Albania was formed...

Another question, how old are you?

News flash baby, your Albanian leaders now pronounced that they will pronounce the Kosovo independent in 10th of January... I'd say its a long shot!
there is something called resolution 1244, we suffered the bombings to to get that, I did to! did you? baby...

You are talking about something you've never seen in person! I've been there people live there in awful therms, all because of your stupid "Great Albania" it wont happen baby!
If Macedonians, Greeks and Serbs who are Albanians naigboring countries hate Albanians and think they are Nationalists, there must be something wrong with Albanians then and not with us...

KOSOVO IS, WAS AND WILL BE SERBIA

 

[Shqype]

[sarcasm]I see your arguments are well-formed as an intellectual[/sarcasm]

First of all, I have bad English because I live in my homeland! and my native language is Serbian, and its rude saying to a person he speaks a language thats not his native bad!

English wasn't my first language either, Albanian was. So I'm in a similar boat with you as we both have another language as our native tongue. Granted, I was raised in New York so I naturally have had better schooling in the English language than you might have had.

Second, first you say Kosovo's monastery's are catholic then converted to Orthodox and now you say Saint Sava builted them... I see you really did your research

Not all of them were Catholic churches that were converted to Orthodox uses, but some were. Saint Sava did have new ones built.

You mean Nazy Germany they gave them Kosovo cause Serbs said no to pact with Germans... you see our young king signed a paper that said Yugoslavian Kingdom is in pact with a threesome alliance (Germany, Italy & Japan) Croats where happy slovens also but Serbs where mad, they protested and when Hitler heard that he ordered to bomb Belgrade and they did, they leveled the city with no declaration of war! and Hitler in that rage gave Croatia independence with Slovenia, Backa(Vojvodina) & Bosnia, they gave Macedonia to Bulgaria and Kosovo to Albanians, Serbia was left to rotten until Chetniks came to rule (thats another story).

The Albanian Balli Kombetar and other forces resisted the Nazis as well... and Albania is the only country in the world that saved 100% of the Jews within its borders from the Holocaust. Not really relevant to the topic, though.

Romans lived here, so that means Roman gens are still here... they can't just pass away? Romans where not exterminated they stayed here and mixed with the other nations! so I can say Serbs have Roman gens and Serbs are Romans... Albanians are not Illyrian!

The Slavs assimilated the Illyrian populations of the areas in which they settled. But, with time, the Illyrian blood was diluted by the Serbian invaders. With each generation more waves of Slavs came and further diluted the Illyrian blood/genes that the original Slavs mixed with. But mixing was not the scenario. The Illyrians moved southward with the Slavic expansion to resist assimilation. It was these Illyrians in the southern portion of their domain that became known eventually as the Albanians.

Linguistic, ethnographic, archaeological, anthropological, historical evidence all point to the fact that the Albanians are the descendants of the Illyrians. Balkan Slavic nationalism, no matter how hard it tries, can't change that.

So what!? you want everything back like in the ancient times? you live in a dream world! so Montenegro and croatia and Bosnia should be Albania?

As nice as a Balkans without the Serbs would be, that's not what I want. I was just telling the history of the region of Kosova, and how its inhabitants, present and ancient, were Illyrian/Albanian.

Albania wouldn't even existed if it weren't for the Italians, after the Balkan Wars... Northen half of Albania should have bean Serbian and southern Greek... but Albania hated the fact that little Russia would have access to the sea... and the suggested that there should be a new county under there rule! and it was granted Albania was formed...

It depends on what you mean by "existed." Albania as a people would always have existed. The Albanians are the oldest survivors of Europe, and have endured 33 armed invasions since antiquity. The Albanians would have continued to survive no matter how many Milosevic's you could throw at us.

The Italians and Germans did support an independent Albania in the beginning of the 20th century. That's true. But what does that prove? Nothing really, it's not that pertinent to the discussion at hand. During the 15th century the Albanian state under Gjergj Kastrioti was recognized all throughout Europe, while the Albanians fiercely resisted the Ottoman Empire (Gjergj Kastrioti was given the title Athleta Christi, Defender of Christianity, by the Popes for his successful efforts in defeating the most powerful army in the world and securing Rome and Western Europe enough time to bolster their defenses in preparation of the Ottoman threat). The Albanians were forced to live under Turkish rule for nearly 5 centuries, even after their Balkan neighbors were winning their independences. This is a map of Albanian-inhabited regions in the time of the Ottoman occupation:



It is also true about the aspirations of the Serbs and Greeks to carve up Albania for their own. They tried but these efforts were thwarted by American President Woodrow Wilson which stressed his theory of self-determination in support of the Albanian people. Although the Albanian state included roughly 50% of Albanian-inhabited areas, it was still an improvement over what the Serbs would have wanted.

News flash baby, your Albanian leaders now pronounced that they will pronounce the Kosovo independent in 10th of January... I'd say its a long shot!
there is something called resolution 1244, we suffered the bombings to to get that, I did to! did you? baby...

It will probably take longer than that, since independence does not come so easy, but I'm patient and I'll be happy when it arrives.

You are talking about something you've never seen in person! I've been there people live there in awful therms, all because of your stupid "Great Albania" it wont happen baby!

Not quite sure what you're talking about here. I've been back to my homeland plenty of times. But, nonetheless, in order to analyze history and learn the facts, is it really necessary for one to see it for himself? An analyst of the Roman empire that has spent years researching has no say in the matter because he didn't see the Roman empire himself first hand? That's what we have historical documents for. Primary sources, ethnographic, anthropological, archaeological evidence to draw logical conclusions based on the facts. I have friends that witnessed first hand the "ethnic cleansing" in Kosova, thankfully I didn't experience it myself. But on the history of the region I have versed myself fairly thoroughly, something which it seems you have not done.

I don't want a Great Albania. There's no such thing (yet there is still a dream of a Great Serbia amongst Serbs which expands nearly the whole Balkans, haha). All I want is an ethnic Albania. Like we had before the Turks came. And like we had during the Ottoman occupation, until Serbia decided to make some land grabs and earn itself a warm-water port.

If Macedonians, Greeks and Serbs who are Albanians naigboring countries hate Albanians and think they are Nationalists, there must be something wrong with Albanians then and not with us...

It's all politics. You just need to watch the news to see all the anti-Albanian measures Greeks have taken, such as burning the Albanian flag as soccer matches and denying Albanians tickets to watch the Greece-Albania match. Police brutality against the Albanian minority in Greece, etc. Macedonia's population is roughly 1/3 Albanian, including the capital which was formerly an Albanian city and still has a sizable Albanian population (that's where the Albanian Catholic nun Mother Teresa was born). The Serbs don't like "the only people to have resisted and harmed the nucleus of the Serb state."

Like the poem goes: "Is it the Albanians' fault that he wishes to live in a land that is his own?"

Kosova was not Serbia; it was a failed colonization attempt. Kosova isn't Serbia, as the UN and NATO won't let the Serbian state have control over it. And Kosova won't be Serbia, because it will gain its independence.

I hope you're ready for it.

 

[GarretSidzaka]

PM me a link when ya make it sounds awesome. now lemme see if i have a CU account yet....

 

[GarretSidzaka]

@the two of you

you guys sure are going at it!!!! Wow, just trying to catch up with your posts.

 

[Partizanac]

Not quite sure what you're talking about here. I've been back to my homeland plenty of times. But, nonetheless, in order to analyze history and learn the facts, is it really necessary for one to see it for himself?

Yes, if you are going to discuss a Kosovos independence with me etc. you had to see the real WAR in person... if you had seen it, you wouldn't talk like this, I'm sure of it! and I will not reply to you any more cause you are just a kid that thinks he know everything... and I'm not going to spend any more time with a ignorant little brat!

 

[GarretSidzaka]

be nice

 

[dutchking]

mmm...I never knew balkans had that much to be pissed about.

 

[Shqype]

Yes, if you are going to discuss a Kosovos independence with me etc. you had to see the real WAR in person... if you had seen it, you wouldn't talk like this, I'm sure of it! and I will not reply to you any more cause you are just a kid that thinks he know everything... and I'm not going to spend any more time with a ignorant little brat!

Or, I completely destroyed your argument and whatever credibility you may have had, and you have nothing better to say because Serbian nationalist propaganda can only hold up against logical history based on empirical fact for so long, and you are playing the "age card" (without even knowing how old I am) because you have no other way out of the argument which you've lost.

You wouldn't be the first Serb to try to weasel his way out of defeat in an intellectual debate with me. I'm used to it by now.

As for discussing Kosova's independence and seeing the war in person, no, I was not present in Kosova during the time of the war. For that I am thankful. But I have seen its effects on the people and the region. I have seen evidence of Albanian corpses and mass graves that came from Serbian brutality. I have interacted with victims that experienced it first hand. And I realize that this wasn't much different from the genocide the Serbs committed against the Albanians during the Balkan Wars and the late 1800s before that.

Like I said, sooner or later Kosova will officially gain its independence, and I will be very happy when that day arrives.

mmm...I never knew balkans had that much to be pissed about.

lol dutchking. The Balkans is the powder keg of Europe! It was Serbs that assassinated Archduke Franz Ferdinand and ignited the spark that began World War I. Thankfully the region is on its way to stabilization.

 

[GarretSidzaka]

mmm...I never knew balkans had that much to be pissed about.

yeah bro. i was there in '99 for my military service, and the place was mostly a wreck.

...i remember being on guard duty at night, and looking out in the distance with my nightvision goggles, i saw a distant glow in the faraway hills. i took off my goggles, and stared hard at the horizon till my eyes adjusted. then i saw distant ribbons of flames all around in the hills. the countryside was burning...

 

[Gaius Octavius]

Well, this thread sure went down quickly...

I must say I was very impressed with the graphics. Who did you use as a base? Hannibal? It's actually hard to tell--one of the marks of a really good leaderhead!

 

[dutchking]

^Its De Gaulle!
Yes I like this LH too. Its very unique, I like Garrets LH's, they're very creative in the end.

 

[GarretSidzaka]

Well, this thread sure went down quickly...

I must say I was very impressed with the graphics. Who did you use as a base? Hannibal? It's actually hard to tell--one of the marks of a really good leaderhead!

LMAO thats for sure, but what do expect from a thread related to the hotbed balkans?

Yeah, it was dugalle with a stalin hat. i gave him smashed gandhi glasses as an after though and then fattened the whole model up a bit for realism (du galle is really skinny)

@dutchking
thank you!! I am very impressed with your work as well. that patton you guys made is beyond belief!!

 

[Partizanac]

I know I promised I wont post in this thread again, but I couldn't resist posting one more time! (I promise)

I just wanted to congratulate Shqype for Kosovo's proclamation of independence on 10th December 2007. (NOT! )

 

[Shqype]

I know I promised I wont post in this thread again, but I couldn't resist posting one more time! (I promise)

I just wanted to congratulate Shqype for Kosovo's proclamation of independence on 10th December 2007. (NOT! )

I didn't expect them to declare independence on the 10th. They are making the right move by waiting just a little bit longer until it is right to do so: a time when Most of the European Union and France will join Britain and America in readily recognizing that independence.

I'm patient, and I'm waiting for it. It'll come, don't worry

 

[GarretSidzaka]

Yeah, i've been hearing about Kosovo alot in the Independent Media quite a bit. I hope that all those people find a solution to their differences.

 

[Shqype]

EU proposal lays out steps on Kosovo independence

By Dan Bilefsky and Stephen Castle
Wednesday, December 12, 2007

PRISTINA, Kosovo: Kosovo will declare its independence in the first two months of 2008 and will be recognized by Britain, France, Italy and Germany within 48 hours, under a plan to be proposed by Slovenia after it assumes the presidency of the European Union in January, senior EU officials said Wednesday.

The officials described a carefully orchestrated declaration of independence, probably after Serbian elections in early February, followed by a welcome from the EU and diplomatic recognition by Europe's biggest nations.

More groups of countries will then recognize an independent Kosovo in a rolling series of announcements, led by the United States, the officials said. Washington would be followed by Switzerland, Iceland and Norway before another group made up of Turkey, Macedonia, Albania Montenegro, Croatia and Slovenia joined in. The 56 members of the Organization of the Islamic Conference would follow suit.

The looming declaration of independence is the biggest test of European foreign policy for years. In the 1990s the EU's failure to intervene in the Balkan wars, and its reliance on the United States to halt the bloodshed, was seen as a humiliating failure of European political will.

Immediately after the declaration of independence, Slovenia would like to have a statement by EU foreign ministers endorsing it. That would clear the way for a European police and judicial mission that would take over from the current United Nations administration in July or August.

The issue will be discussed further at a meeting of EU foreign ministers, which might be brought forward after the declaration of independence, or might take place in March. All of the elements of the Slovenian plan are subject to approval by the EU members.

The plans drawn up by Slovenia are crafted to minimize the risk of a new Balkan crisis and maintain as much unity as possible among European nations, the officials said.

European leaders are determined to try to avoid a repeat of the 1990s and to assert their own influence in the face of pressure from Russia, which supports Serbia in its opposition to independence for Kosovo.

"We must be fast and decisive because the EU is showing it's boss in its own courtyard," said one EU diplomat, speaking on the condition of anonymity. "We want to show we don't need Washington or Moscow to tell us what to do."

"We are fighting for unity in action as well as words. We need fast and decisive moves," the diplomat said. "We must leave no space that will create a vacuum."

The first former Communist country to hold the EU presidency, Slovenia is a former Yugoslav republic, making its role in the process highly symbolic.

Kosovo remains technically part of Serbia, and two rounds of Serbian elections are due to be held on Jan. 20 and Feb. 8.

A declaration of independence in Kosovo before those dates would be likely to play into the hands of nationalist forces in Belgrade.

The EU will put pressure on the Kosovars to delay their declaration until after the elections, providing that the Serbs do not postpone them.

After the declaration, the EU will also try to organize a donor conference designed to start a series of infrastructure projects aimed at improving electricity supply and road networks.

Close attention is being paid to the diplomatic aftermath of the declaration of independence because of the experience of the 1990s when the early recognition of an independent Croatia accelerated the break-up of Yugoslavia. Washington and Brussels agree that the first group to recognize Kosovo should be European.

Some countries in the European Union, such as Spain, are worried that recognition will encourage other separatist movements in Europe.

But most policy makers said they believed there was no alternative to independence in this case.

"If we want to stabilize Kosovo, there is no alternative but to establish a state because, without this, Kosovo has become a paradise for criminals, " one official said.

Meanwhile, as part of a package of measure for the Balkans, Macedonia and Albania are likely to be invited to join the North Atlantic Treaty Organization at its summit meeting in Bucharest in April 2008.

 

[ainwood]

Moderator Action: All: This is to discuss graphics packs, not history. Please use the history or off topic forums for these discussions.

 

[jkp1187]

Can someone please re-upload this LH? Thanks.

 

[GarretSidzaka]

yes, plz help as this is one of the leaderheads I'm missing!!!

 

[RPG]

yes, plz help as this is one of the leaderheads I'm missing!!!

Check your PMs.