Liberty is very hard...

I disagree. Never settle past turn 200? What do you think the Order tree is for?

Sometimes I go 2cc or 3cc until turn 200 (hermitage) and then expand.
 
The only time I settle past t100 is to secure a resource, or as a beach-head so I can use GG's to break through the great wall, or base bombers, etc... Or to secure a roadway when I've accidentally left too much space between my cities and the AI is threatening to cut off my city connections... I mean, very situational stuff.

The Order tree is for tall science victories, duh. It's broken. The devs were on drugs if they thought those policies would make it *profitable* to settle cities late. Seriously, the +3 population thing comes into play SO late. Basically, if you *have to settle a city*, those policies are handy... if you've got 3+ policies just lying around that you don't need. :P

Late settling in general is more useful for roleplaying value than anything else. I mean, aside from aggressive settling during war, which has all kinds of tactical value.
 
Maybe I will try a tall science order because tall science liberty is driving me nuts. I usually play tall science freedom.
 
That's impressive, and I can't do that, even with tradition. My best tradition time is 220. My best liberty time is 240. My average finishing time is also about 20 turns apart for the two trees. But, that means there's significant overlap there.

All vanity and style points though (and as far as those are concerned, I consider Piety opener much more stylish than Tradition finishing 100 turns earlier). A science win is a science win.

It doesn't matter that you haven't hit 190 SV, I haven't either. Most of us haven't. It's just an opportunity to demonstrate the strategy. And, if it's 220 vs 240, that's not a big deal. I'm questioning whether a 10-city build wins even before t300, which goes beyond style points and smells like "a bad strategy". Especially when you think of this as a competitive game.

See, that's the problem I have with saying a liberty approach that wins 40 turns later is viable and more secure. How is it secure if you lose? If you only won because the AI isn't capable of doing what human players can (consistently win by t250) then how is the strategy not just... bad?

I'm not saying you couldn't *eventually* win with 10 cities. You can eventually win an SV with any approach as long as no one beats you to it and you defend yourself well... but the "as long as no one beats you to it" is the *whole reason turn time matters*.

Also, Shuffle is also a perfect testing ground for your style of play, since you favor civs and strategies that work on any map type. Besides, we all learn a lot from those competitions, and not just from the fastest finish. For example on the last g-minor, the second? place time was a spearmen/ikanda rush, and the first-place time was chariot archers... it was interesting to hear the debate.

Anyway. Let the games begin! :D
 
Maybe I will try a tall science order because tall science liberty is driving me nuts. I usually play tall science freedom.

Tall Science Order works better, sadly. I argued against that notion with Tommy a while back because I was a fan of rush-buying spaceship parts, but I have been forced to admit that Order ends up working better. As someone pointed out, Liberty has reverse synergy... it encourages you to take people off 4-food tiles and put them on specialist tiles, slowing growth. This ends up being counter-productive unless your city is already working max tiles... which is unlikely at that stage of the game. By the time you really benefit from Liberty, it's too late, IMHO. Urbanization comes into play too late, because, sadly, perhaps due to bad planning, Medical Labs come into play too late. By the time you get them, investing your prized hammers and gold into them has diminishing returns. Really, IMHO, Liberty works best when you're struggling to defend yourself. It's got all these turtle bonuses, but if no one's attacking you, they're all moot. Happiness from gold buildings? Sure if you're on the warpath... basically, freedom feels half-finished to me.

Worker's Faculties is the bomb. Skyscrapers is the bomb. Heck even +50% food from trade routes is amazing. Getting your happiness from science and production buildings is the bomb.

It's not THAT much of a difference. I feel like Order wins SV about 10 turns faster, unless you mis-time your run and end up waiting for your parts to build. Liberty can afford to mis-time the techs, but only if they have the money to rush-buy parts.

And now that Order closer gives free 2 GP, it's basically ideal...
 
Glad the tradition order vs freedom thing is settled for science. It seemed a no brained when BNW first came out, but almost everyone was saying freedom was faster (when, it wasn't). Then they buffed the policy, and now its no contest.

That's actually IMO one of the things that hurts freedom the most. It's harder to go Order (you have to time pop a GE yourself).

But yes, I can finish 8 city liberty under 275 consistently, and high score of 242. The security is that I end the game with almost 2k output of science, whereas I have 1.2k for tradition. So, each 5 turns of Tradition is 3 turns of liberty (and that's what the GS are multiplying). So, when information era techs are 3-4 turns each, naturally... The 20 turn edge for tradition disappears in 25 turns of a liberty miss. So, even at a miss, liberty will out science tradition by turn 300. That's after the setup. Maybe I've just gotten good at it, but an early spread and/or CB rush (or even arty rush) is very simple imo (for 1 civ). So, the spread is almost as guaranteed as tradition's 4 cities.

Ultimately, for science (and diplo) , I'm not saying liberty beats tradition, but its really very very close (and the civ's UA/UB oftentimes pushes it over the edge, since the nonmilitary ones are usually per city bonuses that works better with wide than tall).

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Happiness is essentially unlimited once ideology hits... assuming your cities are small. ~5.25 pop (4 per city from ideology, 4 from buildings, 1.25 from liberty). You're only limited until then. Anything else comes off of your total extra happiness pool. So, that's why that 32 pop buffer is important to manage mid game, and this grows somewhat late game as you have more access to happiness (stadiums, which are awful, but available, and a little extra from CSs beyond your first two, international games, eifel, etc).

Of course, there is always cost. My post was specifically addressing another poster's problems with spreading 8-10 cities wide by midgame. That should not be an issue ultimately for happy, science, or gold (you just time shift those things from midgame to late game). You'll actually have significant net gains when calculated in the aggregate.

You should never settle a city post-turn 200 except for purely strategic purposes (anything after 150 is iffy). You should never take over or accept a city in a peace deal with expect resistance time past turn 250, except for the same considerations (and only the good ones past turn 200). On a 300 turn metric. Of course, science and growth are meaningless for conquest victories after a certain point anyway.

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I'm not sure how you can say with confidence that Happiness is unlimited via Ideology.

From G&K, a lot of happiness was cut out of the Medieval/Renaissance trees and was replaced two-fold in each Ideology, but also there is a -10 Happiness penalty at minimum for influence levels. When there is no influence difference you are happy as a clam, but there is also some non-zero cost, particularly on higher diffs, to keeping up your Culture/Tourism. Sure it is possible to keep up, but again, to put more strain on your Happiness you are exposing yourself to the costs of doing so. Because when you are getting hit with Influence unhappy, you are even at best with the happy tenets you picked, and in most cases of influence problems you're more unhappy after Factories than before.

So again, you don't necessarily have these gains in aggregate if you're too busy paying costs, and as you do, you snowball further and further behind where you could've been. You are right that most players don't know how to play wide though. Most seem obsessed with growing all-Food tiles, growing each city to 10 Pop, and putting Colosseums/Circuses into their first 3 builds. This is the very problem I'm describing, of having such an enormous outlay that you barely recover real costs, and arguably never recover opportunity costs. But this 10 average pop, 7-8 city empire, whatever, is the very scenario you're arguing for when you plug the numbers for this Wide > Tall argument. To the poster you were responding to (open discussion by the way, that's how forums work), he said your Happy and Science is worse for pop in that style, and then your response was that you have more pop. How are you going to have more pop without making these ridiculous outlays up front? You've got buildings, hammers, trades, and now Culture, above and beyond what any unique luxury provides, and you give that approach credit for an outcome that's only theoretically achievable if you reach maximum leverage on Happiness for free.

I don't think Wide is dead, but the reasons for going Wide aren't congruent for what you're arguing that Wide is capable of. Maybe you are stretching out for an apologetic, since you say Trad is ahead several posts down, but there it is. Going to 7 cities to work Grassland Farms and build Colosseums and Circuses is bad.
 
I think I just did the math on 8-10 cities. The pop isn't unlimited, its expressly limited by 32 extra off base redistributed. But, when your base is 5 pop, and your pop bank swells to 70, over 8 cities, that's 110 pop.
His original claim is that you can't do it. I've proven (I can send a screenshot if you want) that you can. Your question is about science cost, which can mathematically prove you compensate for in 30 turns, and gold/hammer cost of the happiness, which I grant is the price you pay for the pop. But, the pop doesn't just work food and hammers.... They should be working trade posts and luxuries. They should be generating gold, not losing gold overall, even accounting for happiness gold cost. It's just all time shifted 50 turns. The claim isn't that there's not more cost up front (both opportuny and raw), it's that you reap back more rewards than you put in in the last 100 turns. There's nothing wrong with building happiness buildings and basic infrastructure for 50 turns everywhere (you should do that anyway), but at a certain point you want to stop growing/building and start reaping.

It's not the food food science next turn next turn mindset of tradition. You actually have to intelligently evaluate your situation. I didn't teach myself this overnight, but it's also not rocket science. You just have to learn when/where food is good and when/where its bad.

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I think we agree on the idea that it's situational, to grow or not. I just tend to see overproducing Happy unnecessarily due to unproductive, excessive growth as the greater face palm of the two mistakes, while lots of others think that's the whole goal, particularly those migrating from the Tradition-only, Science-only mindset. And those people are essentially locked in that mode, because they'll never found a city or do anything at all for reasons other than Science/Hugeness. So when you come with the idea of, hey, I'm building this city for immediate returns and won't grow it past 3-4 till later, it sets of an alarm bell. That's despite the best Deity LP's doing it over and over that way. Remember, we're talking about 3-4 cities v. 6-7, or 8-10 under your calculus. No matter how many you found, you're doing a lot of business in your first four. If I am founding a 10th city, it better be for a reason other than Monument > Granary > Colosseum, because sitting there as a passive beaker/TP giant at 10 pop is at best break-even after 250-300 turns. That's not enticing, even under that math, which is debatable in the first place. In fact if I am founding even my 6th city, I probably have Archer/C-bow in the first 3 builds and am working 0-food Hill tiles fairly quickly.

So basically yeah, if you're producing Happy everywhere for 50 turns during which period you're yet to break-even on the motives you put yourself in that spot, you're at a bit of cross-purposes. And you're bound to lose or be severely hurt by anything that does come up - a DoW, or a culture runaway, for example. And to be certain then, you can't play both sides of the same grow or not-grow argument, such that you're saying it's BOTH safer and bigger. On your 7th-8th city, you're either prod or food. Only both if you are playing Prince level and the AI sits on 2-cities. So if you're doing it wrong going food, you're going prod, and you're doing it for space, safety, and a bit of economy, at the expense of Science.

If you want to go wide because you like playing that way, ok. I for one am not a huge fan of duplicating the same Science race game after game. But if people go a counter-growth, counter-science strategy, growing into Happy buildings to cross their fingers they'll break even on T250 isn't what it's about.
 
Well, the entire conversation between me and Cro and tommy was about science... so yeah, I was doing math and pulling examples, and making assumptions about science. I don't know why people keep making me arguing for 5 different things at once. You can go several ways with liberty and with wide in general.... but you can't do them all at once. For science, it's best to go semi-wide and tall when playing liberty (if your cities don't have at least 12 pop each by endgame, you're doing it wrong). For culture, it's best to go wide period, with less consideration for tall (a couple of 5 pop cities is 100% okay). For conquest, you don't have a choice but to go fairly wide, and you frankly can't support the happiness fairly quickly on deity if you're growing anything while going that wide, so you HAVE to stay small. For diplo, I don't know why you would go liberty in the first place.

We've been posting on the same threads for a couple of months now Justice, you know I don't only play science, or only one map type, or only certain civs. You know I don't care about turn times. I only keep track so I can communicate with what seems like the 90% of deity players who measure success by that metric. ;)
 
Happiness is essentially unlimited once ideology hits... assuming your cities are small. ~5.25 pop (4 per city from ideology, 4 from buildings, 1.25 from liberty). You're only limited until then. Anything else comes off of your total extra happiness pool. So, that's why that 32 pop buffer is important to manage mid game, and this grows somewhat late game as you have more access to happiness (stadiums, which are awful, but available, and a little extra from CSs beyond your first two, international games, eifel, etc).

Of course, there is always cost. My post was specifically addressing another poster's problems with spreading 8-10 cities wide by midgame. That should not be an issue ultimately for happy, science, or gold (you just time shift those things from midgame to late game). You'll actually have significant net gains when calculated in the aggregate.

You should never settle a city post-turn 200 except for purely strategic purposes (anything after 150 is iffy). You should never take over or accept a city in a peace deal with expect resistance time past turn 250, except for the same considerations (and only the good ones past turn 200). On a 300 turn metric. Of course, science and growth are meaningless for conquest victories after a certain point anyway.

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quick question: what is the 32-pop buffer? (does it mean not to exceed 32 pop?) :confused:
 
quick question: what is the 32-pop buffer? (does it mean not to exceed 32 pop?) :confused:

Just a hypothetical.

For tradition, you will always be able to obtain more happiness, so the focus is grow grow grow.

For liberty, your happiness is capped somewhere, depending on your religion, social policies, availability of zoos/stadiums, city states, etc. This "cap" gets majorly lifted when ideologies come into play, as you start being able to select 3-4 happiness policies in a row if you so choose, at not so high opportunity costs (because besides 1-2 policies, the happiness policies, especially tier 1 ones, are some of the highest value social policies in the game). But, until then, you have to distribute your population efficiently, which means you don't necessarily want your 7th city to grow to 10 pop (yet), even if it could. In fact, because all happiness can be traded for gold, if you are pursuing a culture strategy, you may not want to grow those cities at all (stay at 4-5 pop) because the reason you added more cities was not for science, but for archeologists, or space to put great works, or maybe you have a UI that translates into tourism, or you're just banking on getting more dig sites in your territory.

Anyway, say we're at zoos, each city has +4 possible happiness, we have +2 for religion with temples, and +1 for a road. That means each city is happiness neutral at 4 pop. You then have a global happiness "bank" of luxuries and city states and what not, and that is the max additional pop (+5% with Liberty) in your empire for you to distribute. You'll want enough pop in your culture city to support the specialist slots, if you are producing things, you'll want enough pop in that city to be able to work mines (or trade posts with a gold city), but most importantly, you'll want population in the NC city. If you have a total of 40 extra pop and 8 cities, the worst way to divide them is 5 extra pop per city. Your cities clearly should be prioritized differently.

The actual # of the happiness buffer/bank changes depending on the game, but you should have a rough idea of where it is, so you can do some empire population planning (something completely unnecessary in tradition, where you're only limited by the amount of food you can pump into a city).

Because of the price you can sell luxuries at, each pop costs you a static 2 gold per turn, so long as you have any luxuries you haven't sold/traded yet. In early game, that's hefty. In mid game, that's the same as a military unit, or worker. In late game, it's not even half a worker. Justice is making the point that at a certain point, pop is no longer worth the cost of 2 gold per turn and the hammer opportunity cost to get the pop in the first place, because all of it's value (besides science) is being put into food (which only gives more pop) and hammers (which is being used to build happiness buildings / food buildings / hammer buildings). For a science game, I don't see it that way, since you would pay almost any amount of gold for more science. So, all I'm worried about is the mid-game happiness bottleneck and thus proper population distribution (this also means it's not necessary to run all those food routes, just 1-2, so you end up with more gold for mid-game).
 
Anyway, say we're at zoos, each city has +4 possible happiness, we have +2 for religion with temples, and +1 for a road. That means each city is happiness neutral at 4 pop.

No, the two happiness per temple religious belief is only active in cities with five or more believers. You need at least five pop, but more likely 6 or 7, to get that happiness.
 
Because in most games at least some of your cities will be catching pressure from another religion besides your own, which will convert one or two of your citizens.
 
Plus you are likely to have an atheist or two. Hard to always have 5 followers in a 5 pop city.
 
An interesting point could be be the Scienece overflow thing. Go liberty, Rush NC with two or three cities, after NC rush for education and spam as many cities as possible and focus on building libraries, build 5-6 universtities, (sell libraries if nessessary to slow down tech more) bulb at architecture. Since you get outteched hard anyway you should be able to produce 6-7 gs. If you have 7-8 cities you can probably wind up at turn 200 (completed techtree) with 8 instead of 3 cities compared to tradition... In this cities since you dont have to build public schools and research labs you can focu on growth and production, resulting in a faster space ship through production... maybe ??

thoughts ?

Its already established that the Science overflow can only reduce tradition wins by approx 10-20 turns. Maybe it can reduce Liberty wins by like 30 ? Still worse but an improvement :D

EDIT: This post is mostly speculation, I had not the time to test anything so dont take it too seriously
 
Because in most games at least some of your cities will be catching pressure from another religion besides your own, which will convert one or two of your citizens.

Ahh, yes, I forget its tied to followers. But, the idea is the same minus the religion happiness.

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