Lime or Volcanic Ash as a resource?

[thelibra]

It occurred to me while reading an article, that one of the single most important resources, Concrete (or rather the necessary material to make it), has been left out of every version of Civ to date. When the Romans made it, they used Volcanic Ash as the binding material. Later on, the recipe was rediscovered using lime instead of ash.

Concrete is the foundation (pun intended) of modern architecture and civil engineering! How could this have been overlooked for so long? I should think it would at least allow for the standard bonus to hammers as iron does. It really seems like a no-brainer. Have concrete as a tech, which then causes Lime (or Ash, whatever) to show up which can then be mined for a production bonus as well as a tile hammer bonus.

 

[duckofspades]

Intresting idea, I woud go for this and salt being in the game. So long as they don't have to many resoures. I think they should keep it around 30. Also would like to see luxery resource only supply limited cities. 1 Ivory supplys 5 cities as a example.

 

[fromeast2west]

Historic (or even current) shouldn't be the only factor in determining somethings inclusion in the game. It also needs to be of strategic significance.

If something is important, but also very common, then it's the technology to exploit the resource, and not the resource itself that's important.

For instance, trees are very important, but also very common. Their distribution on the map may factor into where and how you build, but they aren't a 'resource' in the game.

I don't know how common ash or lime are, but salt can be produced pretty much anywhere you have access to the ocean. There may be areas that are better suited for production than others, and some places it can be mined.. but in the end it's still pretty common.

 

[brianshapiro]

fromeast2west

The reason we've been talking about salt is that it did have a lot of strategic importance in that countries with salt mines became very wealthy and powerful, and control over the resource has led to wars. Mass scale salt production from the sea wasn't easy.

I simply don't know enough to say if there was a big enough trade around ash. I would guess if they didn't use concrete they would have used something else. In a more detailed, complex civ game we could put a lot of different things in but right now it would just burden the game to put too many. If anyone here knows anything about the commerce of ash / concrete in the roman era it would be interesting to find out

Lime, alone, could be considered to be gathered through the stone resource with a quarry, since limestone is a type of rock.

 

[The_J]

With the natural wonders on the map and the more "living maps" with different stiles for different "continents", i can definitly also see volcanos as possible features on the map.
Adding volcanic ashes is then a logical step imho, or would make a good random event.

 

[thelibra]

RE: Trees - Actually, I thought the same thing before I studied architecture, but you'd be surprised how few places had appropriate wood-types in sufficient quantities to build many permanent structures. Likewise, clay, a great building material, varies in quality, quantity, and type. So, for instance, in England and north from there, you find a lot of split-beam, cross-timber, filled with aggregate to make the stereotypical "English Cottage" look in architecture, whereas in the soutern area of the US, you find a lot of clay buildings and brick buildings. There's lots of very old concrete structures around Italy and in places Roman roads and aquaducts connected to, but not in, say, the far north of Europe, where trees were pretty much the ONLY building material in abundance, to the point where intricate cathedrals would be made from nothing but wood, including wooden pegs instead of nails. In parts of Africa and Arabia, mud, straw, and reeds were the only material available, and yet Shibam, this awesome city of 7 to 11 story skyscrapers, was made entirely out of mud-brick. People had to make due with what they had using vernacular materials.

However, certain vernacular materials, such as stone, iron, copper, concrete, and wood, lend themselves rather well to empire-building compared to others. IMHO, wood should be a strategic resource as well, because of the previously mentioned reasons. Clay as well.

As far as the case for having too many resources in the game, I'm of two minds. True, I would not want hundreds of resources to worry about, but for instance, it would be nice if substitute materials were available for 1/2-build times on wonders, or production bonuses, or tile bonuses. That way if I couldn't get, say, Concrete, I could get Clay and accomplish nearly the same results.

RE: Salt - It would definitely be a valid commercial resource, though I'm not so sure of its strategic value. When I think "strategic" I think in terms of either building material or weapon-making material. Materials, not trade goods. While sea-salt has some nice heat-retention and radiation properties, it's not yet been used in any sort of widespread building effort nor are there weaponized salts that I'm aware of, outside of Q.

 

[12agnar0k]

well as for concrete/tarmac or something, if you wanted it in the game, I think the best place would be in the modern era, and have it either 1. decrease road maintanence, concrete/tarmac lasts longer than other types of road one assumes, or/and 2. +1 Movement on roads.

 

[civ_king]

Lime/Ash and salt should really be added, very important resources

 

[Alki]

IIRC volcanic material, pumice perhaps, from Vasevius was used in concrete as it set in massive quantities and even underwater.

To translate that into Civ terms, I think what we are talking about is that concrete can be used instead of stone for building projects. But isn't that what the construction science does?

 

[Tregon]

Perhaps we should think resources backwards...

How important they are today...

Strategic resources like iron, aluminum, oil or copper have not lost their importance. No steel without iron, copper is abudant everywhere where there is electrical wiring and so forth.

Salt and to some extent ash/lime would lose their importance rapidly.
Of course, such thinking brings us to ask if whales would be important resource, but what would they be replaced with?

 

[Alki]

Chickens. Very big chickens.

 

[NedimNapoleon]

What about sulfur its used to make gunpowder and its forms around volcanes

 

[Alki]

What about sulfur its used to make gunpowder and its forms around volcanes

To this day?

 

[NedimNapoleon]

no not to this day they just used it to make black gunpowder now we use smokeless gun powder and sulfur is an industrial material

 

[thelibra]

If memory serves, Sulpher was in Civ3. As for whales, I believe they got replaced by a combination of ground-oil and increased agricultural yield from the Green Revolution when farm equipment got mechanized, hybrids started getting planted, etc.

Concrete is still absolutely essential in modern architecture. And the two best binders for it are limestone and volcanic ash. Methinks it remains as important as copper and iron to this day. In fact, like Aluminum, a case coud be argued that it only continues to gain in importance the more advanced we get.

 

[Disgustipated]

isn't limestone widely available? It is in the area where I live (desert southwest). Volcanic ash is also very prevalent.

There is no need for these resources. The hammer provided by hills represents these resources.

 

[DocBuchanan]

I think... some resources could be treated as strategic/special resources. Perhaps a national wonder could provide the resource, or change an existing resource into the new resource. These new resources in turn could allow special buildings, units, or promotions. Examples would be spanish steel (used by Caesar for his 10th and 3rd Gallacia legions after their blacksmiths were taught the techniques of bonding coal with iron in the 1st century BC, way before industrialized steel), french wines (considered throughout history to be the best, maybe awarded with the construction of a master winery), the arabian horse, Egyptian silk, southern tobacco, etc. All of these are plays on current resources, but could be made better through a little effort on the players part. Once provided, the player would have a static number of these resources and would have to choose how to appropriately utilize them. I think this would take care of extremely uncommon resources. Resources that are TOO common shouldn't be added in. Common but localized resources are what should be placed on the map.

 

[civ_king]

Wootz/Damascus Steel>Spanish Steel

 

[Rusty Edge]

isn't limestone widely available? It is in the area where I live (desert southwest). Volcanic ash is also very prevalent.

There is no need for these resources. The hammer provided by hills represents these resources.

I'd describe these things as regional. Sort of like coal... one place might have had a lot of prehistoric shellfish, another a lot of prehistoric ferns, depending whether it was land or sea, climate and elevation, etc. It can be common on one side of a continent and scarce on the other, not so different from volcanoes in that respect. The thing is, a given country can be a have or have not, depending on the resource, so fortune favors the large countries and empires.

I guess I'd have to agree that there is no need for these resources, even though I'd like to have more in the game. Just as salt can be made from seawater, lime can be made from bones and seashells. Charcoal can be made to take the place of coal. Saltpeter can be refined from urine. Common( "workshop" in civ terms) industries in the 1700s. Also, we have quarries and mines in the game, they are most likely providing salt, tin, zinc, lime, and other unspecified metals.

I always figured the farms without special resources were raising chickens, vegetables and forage. The cottages had their own chickens and gardens, I'm sure.

On the other hand we have whales, a limited time period resource. We have coal. Arguably, salt should be a tradable resource through the middle ages.

 

[DocBuchanan]

I'd describe these things as regional. Sort of like coal... one place might have had a lot of prehistoric shellfish, another a lot of prehistoric ferns, depending whether it was land or sea, climate and elevation, etc. It can be common on one side of a continent and scarce on the other, not so different from volcanoes in that respect. The thing is, a given country can be a have or have not, depending on the resource, so fortune favors the large countries and empires.

I guess I'd have to agree that there is no need for these resources, even though I'd like to have more in the game. Just as salt can be made from seawater, lime can be made from bones and seashells. Charcoal can be made to take the place of coal. Saltpeter can be refined from urine. Common( "workshop" in civ terms) industries in the 1700s. Also, we have quarries and mines in the game, they are most likely providing salt, tin, zinc, lime, and other unspecified metals.

I always figured the farms without special resources were raising chickens, vegetables and forage. The cottages had their own chickens and gardens, I'm sure.

On the other hand we have whales, a limited time period resource. We have coal. Arguably, salt should be a tradable resource through the middle ages.

Agree. Maybe with the new system of limited resources salt should be treated like a luxury resource, where one quarry is good enough for your entire empire. It was more common than say... Gems. Of course many other represented resources are common throughout the world.

Maybe it would have been better if each resource, before being used by a city, required a number of buildings to be constructed. A blacksmith, armor-smith, lumber mill, steel factory, that kind of thing. And maybe those buildings could vary in the quality of product they produce... giving the units built in that city a + or - percentage bonus. Or providing 12% production bonus instead of 10%. Give buildings a unique feel where the player can say... I've got an incredible shipwright there in Antium. It produces high quality submarines, every time. Maybe these subs with their extra movement point will be of use to me someday, or maybe I can sell such a high quality item.

Anyway, it'll be in my Mod. Just gotta play the game first, learn how to make things in blender, and learn Lua. And C++. And keep my effin job.