LK91 - RaR OCC

[LKendter]

950 AD
(IT) The sewer system is completed.


970 AD
(IT) The park is completed for less pollution and 1 CPT.
The war gods just cursed this game and Egypt and France ally vs. Spain.
We get Realpolitik from The Encyclopedia.


980 AD
(IT) Germany and Spain ally vs. Tibet.


990 AD
We get Modern Legal System from The Encyclopedia.
(IT) An Arena is completed for +2 content and 1 CPT.


1000 AD
(IT) Egypt and Spain sign peace.


1030 AD
(IT) We get Advanced Metallurgy from The Encyclopedia.


1040 AD
(IT) A hospital completes for a 25% production boast.


1080 AD
(IT) We get The Corporation from The Encyclopedia.


1130 AD
(IT) Spain completes Emancipation Proclamation. That is an excellent wonder for city growth.
Egypt completes Eiffel Tower for a free monument in every city.


1140 AD
(IT) International Port completes for major plus in water tiles (+1 commerce, food and shield). We get 50% tax revenue and entertainment funding. It also gives 2 CPT.
The city growth rate just shot threw the roof. We many need to go back and mine some flood plains. I will want shields before specialist.


==========================

Summary:
The situation is very scary with Egypt.

Productivity and growth are way up. The culture rate isn't moving much.
Next up is University (+2 culture and research help with the Encyclopedia dies). Newton's is already under construction.

Signed up:
LKendter
Bezhukov (currently playing)
Bed_head7 (on deck)
Doc Tsiolkovski
Grs

Remember 20 turns per round (not much will happen with just 1 city) - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

NOTE: This is a strict 1CC. We can't have another city for even a millisecond.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK91-1150_AD.zip

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

The sewer system is completed

Why that? We have Shakespeares'. A complete waste, unless I miss something.

I played a couple of Deity OCC games the last few days, and I came to the conclusion this variant is not viable above Emperor, or maybe DG if the AI is cooperative.
Even with far better cities, a SCI Civ (Greece) and SGLs on (of course, not that I ever got more than 2), Oracle and 100+cpt around 1200AD, arond the time I reached 10k, someone reached domination. Once the leading Civ in RaR starts to steamroll over the runner-ups, there is no way to stop it. Even allying the world against it is futile.
Should work on standard maps, but not on small.

 

[Bezhukov]

Doc, I think the runaway AI phenomenon, as my Rome screenshot from the RandR thread was meant to illustrate, has more to do with the pathetic weakness of the weak than the strength of the strong. They just blow all their shields on pipedreams, then starve themselves to death pop-rushing. This is the only glaring weakness in what is otherwise the best mod for Civ3 hands down.

My solutions - and this is painful but I do feel necessary: no pop-rushing govs. The AI just can't manage it effectively in the long run. As well as restrictions on wonders. Some cascades may need to be sacrificed. But there are other things the AI needs badly to build to compete.

I've been testing the TAM mod to prepare for the succession game. Makes me appreciate RandR all the more. The ONLY appeal there is the novelty.

 

[grs]

Why that? We have Shakespeares'. A complete waste, unless I miss something.

Mostly my mistake, I started it. LK probably did not read Bezhukovs warning in time.

 

[LKendter]

Mostly my mistake, I started it. LK probably did not read Bezhukovs warning in time.

I did miss the warning until AFTER I played. It was to late at that point. I would suggest the next player sell it.

I played a couple of Deity OCC games the last few days, and I came to the conclusion this variant is not viable above Emperor, or maybe DG if the AI is cooperative.

While I plan to finish this game, I do agree. I give us < 10% of not losing by domination. My mistake with the starting location didn't help as we probably would have gotten more shields earlier and snuck in some more culture earlier.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Bez, pop-rushing is no problem at all. There are no units cheap enough in the IA/ModernA anyway.
The situation is mainly caused by the fact there is no Über-Defender like Infantry in unmodded.
If two equally advanced Civs, with one twice as big as the other, fight in unmodded at that time, almost nothing happens. In RaR, the bigger one will eat the smaller one alive (unless MGs/Tanks hit the scene). This game is a typical example: France and Spain wouldn't be able to defend against Egypt. In unmodded, they could easily, as long as the have Rubber.
The problem are not the weaklings, the problem is that even top Civ#2 if it happens to be played by the AI cannot defend aghainst #1.
Note I do not really see this as a balance problem; the situation rarely emerges on standard or above, simply because there is room for at least 2 strong AIs. I just wouldn't advice to try OCCs on small maps.

 

[Bezhukov]

Doc, how can you be so sure? When I go aspying, I see some interesting things. I once saw an International Port town with a lone entertainer! (he was the only citizen left), this says the AI is either pop-rushing (making 60 shields toward an 80 shields unit, say - something the human would never do) or drafting itself to death. The fact that two AI's can survive on larger maps is not sufficient - if we wanted to play just 2 AI's we would select that at the beginning - it's more fun with more viable AI's.

You're right about the defense. Have you ever consider going 4,5,6,7,8 on the defensive unit progression instead of 4,4,5,6,8? This gentle change might help (Line Infantry at 5 defense).

 

[Bezhukov]

"wait till you see my mistakes"

That was a long wait, grs Doc, guess it's your turn now. Despite our mistakes, if it weren't for power-mad Cleo raining on everyone else's parade, we'd be in decent shape. Pls build the Mil Academy, so we will have some hope, even only a fool's.

Doh! I see it's up to me. Got it.

 

[LKendter]

Doc, guess it's your turn now.

Signed up:
LKendter
Bezhukov (currently playing)
Bed_head7 (on deck)
Doc Tsiolkovski
Grs

Remember 20 turns per round (not much will happen with just 1 city) - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

NOTE: This is a strict 1CC. We can't have another city for even a millisecond.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Drafting is a problem, for sure. Still, the situation in RaR is more 'normal' than in unmodded IMHO. It's a bit bizarr to have an era where you do not have to care about an AI conquering another one. In unmodded MAs or AAs, that's common as well.

 

[Bezhukov]

"It's a bit bizarr to have an era where you do not have to care about an AI conquering another one."

That's true - just would like it to be a fair fight.

 

[LKendter]

Signed up:
LKendter
Bezhukov (currently playing)
Bed_head7 (on deck)
Doc Tsiolkovski
Grs

Remember 20 turns per round (not much will happen with just 1 city) - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
NOTE: This is a strict 1CC. We can't have another city for even a millisecond.

 

[Bezhukov]

Pre-flight: Ah, Total War, so near yet so far… Guess we don’t want to settle for a diplo win anyway. I see we’ll be getting Refrig next turn from the pedia, Univ as Fishery pre-build. Sell Naval Tactics to Otto for 108 gold and WM. RoP with Joanie for WM and 3 gpt to improve relations. Sell Repeating Rifle to Isabella to help her against Egypt and get us silks and some gpt. Start mining FP (we can plant forest on the plains later). Gift Tibet up to Repeating Rifle (as if it will help). Cleo is broke, maybe there is hope.

Of course, Sewer System is unsellable. Shall we build an Aqueduct too for the matched set?

IBT: Iron deal runs out – trade her Advance Metallurgy to renew, also get some gold.

1160AD: Fishery in 1.

1170AD: Fishery->hmm, take a peek at Orleans building Newton’s in 17. Better get to work. Univ in 3.

1180AD: shortrush to get Uni in 1.Trade Egypt WM for Rubber, something fishy there.

1190AD: Uni->Newton’s in 5. Espionage in 1.

Refining comes in from pedia. Of course we have no Oil, despite our generous supply of desert. Apparently only Tibet has an extra, but it is not yet roaded.

1200AD: Trade Joanie Espionage (at monopoly) for 2800 gold and two lux. Trade to Cleo for 3 more lux and some gold. To others for spare change. Marxism in 8. Ouch, we need Newton’s.

1210AD: nada

1220AD: growth to 18

1230AD: nada

1240AD: Newton’s->CH (required for Prison). French start Wonderland (we need that one, so worth keeping an eye on. This also means France is at least 3 techs ahead, though only Internal Combustion is showing)

1250AD: CH-> Prison in 3.

1255AD: Combustion from pedia, shortrush Prison.

IBT: Egypt piles on Spain.

1260AD: Prison->School of Scribes. Marxism->Compulsory Ed. Sell Joanie Marx for 1900 gold. Change from the rest – Egypt is flat broke (unit support?) Planning to go science boosting now.

1265AD: School of Scribes->Monastery (one turn short rush using empty-box laborer)

1270AD: Mon->Lab (one turn, same) There are now 3 Egyptian cities with Spanish names. The French are screwing us (and themselves). Reup coal with Cleo for 15gpt.

1275AD: Lab->School (same thing – this is costing us about 800 per rush). I think this is 20, so will stop here. We’ll get Compulsory Ed in 3, and can trade to Joanie for cash. Can wait to get Mass Production from pedia, but should probably go for Psych on our own to get Wonderland. May need to peak at Joanie’s city building it.

We doubled our beakers and increased production by nearly 50% on these turns, so progress is being made. If only Isabella can hold out until peace. Joanie is well ahead of Cleo on tech, so maybe her tanks can do something for us.

 

[LKendter]

We doubled our beakers and increased production by nearly 50% on these turns, so progress is being made.

I agree, the only trouble is CPT isn't growing much.


Well looking at the picture we have TO much food! I would rather have shield for wonders then some specialist. We had better mine the rest of the flood plains and maybe even desert.


Signed up:
LKendter
Bezhukov
Bed_head7 (currently playing)
Doc Tsiolkovski (on deck)
Grs

Remember 20 turns per round (not much will happen with just 1 city) - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

NOTE: This is a strict 1CC. We can't have another city for even a millisecond.

 

[LKendter]

1200AD: Trade Joanie Espionage (at monopoly) for 2800 gold and two lux. Trade to Cleo for 3 more lux and some gold. To others for spare change. Marxism in 8.

We have the encyclopedia. I am curious what the hard research push when we get techs for free.


I took a look at the game. I think we have lost a bit of focus on the goal of 25K. A school offers zero culture and gains 50% to science. A museum offers 2 culture and gains 50% to science. Culture generating buildings are needed now. To win just before 2050 AD we need to average 70 CPT for the rest of the game. We currently make just 72 CPT with some possible doubling left. The game won't last to 2050AD. The museum should have been build before any of the other science boosters. We are at the stage where any culture still makes a big difference. 70 CPT would mean 262 turns left. 80 CPT would mean 229 turns left. We need to cut down the number of turns left.

The no culture exceptions should really help us. Fishery was worth it as we can mine a lot for tiles for shields from the extra food. Production boasters pay to help get future culture.

 

[Dwarven Zerker]

Well looking at the picture we have TO much food! I would rather have shield for wonders then some specialist. We had better mine the rest of the flood plains and maybe even desert.

Lurker comment:
From the pic, zero growth can be maintained at 20 pop if 3 of the 4 deserts are mined. You currently have 7 extra food and will lose 6 to mining deserts the extra one will combine with the 2 from the only irrigated desert to reduce the extra food to zero.


LK: I apologize if you don't like lurkers commenting like this. Thought it would be okay as it isn't spoiler info. If you like I'll edit to delete.

 

[LKendter]

LK: I apologize if you don't like lurkers commenting like this.

I have no problems with these type of comments. My problem is spoiler information such as hints of future wars, resources, etc.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

French start Wonderland

You are aware this comes with Psychology, which also obsoletes the Encyclopedia? In my single player trials, I always fell hopelessly behind at that point; never got a non-SGL wonder except Einstein with the Wonderland shields (missed it for one tunr), and the LoN, whcih the AI usually doesn't build; they learn Totalitarism before they start it.

Then, Food. We don't have such a surplus; they most efective use should be size 21, and a Forest on the irrigated plains tile. Any other +/- 0 situation requires to pillage a RR.

Culture: The MilAc is pretty important, but it may be already too late. Armies will allow for Pentagon, and some more small wonders, especially the War Memorial (3cpt, Fascism).
There is almost nothing to get in the Modern Ages. We won't get any wonders there, so Apollo, and a few pure cultural improvement are everything we can get. But IA offers a lot high-culture small wonders, at foremost the National Gallery (100% Science, 3cpt).
Our cpt isn't very impressive. In all the games I lost, I had 100+cpt around 1200AD already. My best result so far was 21.5k in 1774 - when Iros launched. Do not expect a Deity game lasting longer than 1800AD.

Oh, and don't forget to sell of the Court. This one at least can be sold .

 

[LKendter]

Our cpt isn't very impressive. In all the games I lost, I had 100+cpt around 1200AD already. My best result so far was 21.5k in 1774 - when Iros launched. Do not expect a Deity game lasting longer than 1800AD.

Why do you think I am so worried about more culture buildings. However, I give us < 5% at this point. My bad starting placement together with mistakes made in the game pretty much killed this one.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Your start wasn't sooo bad. The reason why founding on a hill is almost mandatory is to get the 4th crucial base shield sooner, so that a Worker Housing/Forge shows an effect. But with those Camels, we could benefit from them soon enough anyway.