Kaiser_Berger
Terran Emporer
Ok, I've got it.
LK93 - RaR, 25K again, not OCC
- Thread starter LKendter
- Start date
lurker's comment:
The reason you are gettting attacked is because you are choosing food rich starts. The AI will often attack you if you are ahead of it (in score), but have a really weak military.
In RaR, since a normal start has a max city size of 2 or 3, and you are choosing locations that you can grow freely, you are going to be higher in score, while the AI with its free units will have a stronger military. Your options are:
1) I think part of the point of RaR is to not be able to grow as quickly at the start. Choosing non-flood plain starts should really help in that the AI will be bigger than you.
2)Choose the very powerful starts, but build up enough military that you don't fear an attack by the AI.
3)Put off meeting other civs until you have a stronger military.
The reason you are gettting attacked is because you are choosing food rich starts. The AI will often attack you if you are ahead of it (in score), but have a really weak military.
In RaR, since a normal start has a max city size of 2 or 3, and you are choosing locations that you can grow freely, you are going to be higher in score, while the AI with its free units will have a stronger military. Your options are:
1) I think part of the point of RaR is to not be able to grow as quickly at the start. Choosing non-flood plain starts should really help in that the AI will be bigger than you.
2)Choose the very powerful starts, but build up enough military that you don't fear an attack by the AI.
3)Put off meeting other civs until you have a stronger military.
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2001
- Messages
- 20,064
FYI - there was a critical thing I forget in my reports. Please get a road to the silks ASAP. There is a wonder call Silks Road that is ONLY available to a civ with Silks. This gives us a colossus type effect for an INLAND city. Our capitol is really going to have most of the revenue and science. We need to build many of the science buildings anyhow for the culture. In addition, you get the C3C marketplace effect with luxuries making luxury #3 and above more powerful in the capitol.
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2001
- Messages
- 20,064
Another comment - Even though LK91 looks bad it did prove how powerfully tourism income is. Small wonders that give tourism including the palace gardens, and any large wonders giving tourism are the prioirity after the production boasters.
Kaiser_Berger
Terran Emporer
Preturn- Ok, looks good. Here we go.
T1 2150
Trade Japan Slavery and Fermentation for The Wheel. Disease hits Mecca
T4 2030
Lower science to get Dynast for best price.
IT- Revolt, drawing two turns of anarchy, of course.
T6 1950
We are a Monarchy. MM Mecca for growth and Worker Housing in 1.
Set research to Philosophy, due in 14 turns at 50%.
T7 1910
Mecca complete worker housing, start on Forge.
Crap, ranger ends up next to barb.
T8 1870
Barb ignored ranger. Lucky, I guess. Move on with him.
T9 1830
Nothing new.
T10 1790
Pop a hut and get Bronze Working.
T11 1750
Not much.
Summary
I played an extra turn to even it out at 1750. We have a forge due next turn in Mecca. I started a Pioneer in Medina for the Gold and Iron spot. Settling right on the iron looks good, as it will also pull in two sources of gems. Figured we could with just a Pioneer and not hardy since it has so much bonus food. If I'm wrong feel free to change. Philo is due in 7, perhaps we'll get a free tech. Worker is now free to start road to the silks.
T1 2150
Trade Japan Slavery and Fermentation for The Wheel. Disease hits Mecca
T4 2030
Lower science to get Dynast for best price.
IT- Revolt, drawing two turns of anarchy, of course.
T6 1950
We are a Monarchy. MM Mecca for growth and Worker Housing in 1.
Set research to Philosophy, due in 14 turns at 50%.
T7 1910
Mecca complete worker housing, start on Forge.
Crap, ranger ends up next to barb.
T8 1870
Barb ignored ranger. Lucky, I guess. Move on with him.
T9 1830
Nothing new.
T10 1790
Pop a hut and get Bronze Working.
T11 1750
Not much.
Summary
I played an extra turn to even it out at 1750. We have a forge due next turn in Mecca. I started a Pioneer in Medina for the Gold and Iron spot. Settling right on the iron looks good, as it will also pull in two sources of gems. Figured we could with just a Pioneer and not hardy since it has so much bonus food. If I'm wrong feel free to change. Philo is due in 7, perhaps we'll get a free tech. Worker is now free to start road to the silks.
microbe
Cascaded Mansion
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2003
- Messages
- 4,596
preturn: I switch monument to shrine. Same cost, more benefit, and I'd happily pay 1gpt for it.
I switch Medina to worker, as we simply need more.
Also, Medina should work on the forests to get high shields. I get Pioneer in 5 turns.
We can lower lux and get Philosophy one turn earlier.
1725BC: Set Mecca to Palace Garden. Culture 2 and has tourist income. MM to get it in 8 turns.
IBT India starts HG and completes Oracle.
1700BC: Sell Fermentatoin to Sioux for 83g. Raise lux to 30.
MM Medina to get Pioneer next turn as the grow. We should never let it grow beyond size 7 as that would empty the food box.
1650BC: Send settler to claim the iron/gems/gold.
1625BC: Methology to Sioux for Construction+6g. Bronze Working+35g to Japan for Polytheism. Medina starts Worker Housing.
1600BC: We get Philosophy the first and take Classic Education.
1575BC: Philosophy to India for 295g. Philosophy+36g to Germany for Aristocracy.
Classic Education to India for 362g. Classic Education+71g to Germany for Civil Engineering.
Set to Poetry in 9 turns. Found Baghdad.
IBT Palace Gardan is completed and we start Wind Mill. India establishes embassy with us.
1500BC: Philosophy+5g for CoL from Japan. Wheel to Sioux for 156g.
Medina could go 3fpt/6spt or 1fpt/8spt. Make sure not to let it grow to size-8.
We shouldn't spend too many shields on wonders, as in RaR they don't have much more culture than normal improvements (normally just 2cpt instead of 1). So after WM we should go for Monument/Acadamy/Arena/etc. Cheap ones go first. (I should have built Monument first I guess)
But I guess we are going for Great Library?
I switch Medina to worker, as we simply need more.
Also, Medina should work on the forests to get high shields. I get Pioneer in 5 turns.
We can lower lux and get Philosophy one turn earlier.
1725BC: Set Mecca to Palace Garden. Culture 2 and has tourist income. MM to get it in 8 turns.
IBT India starts HG and completes Oracle.
1700BC: Sell Fermentatoin to Sioux for 83g. Raise lux to 30.
MM Medina to get Pioneer next turn as the grow. We should never let it grow beyond size 7 as that would empty the food box.
1650BC: Send settler to claim the iron/gems/gold.
1625BC: Methology to Sioux for Construction+6g. Bronze Working+35g to Japan for Polytheism. Medina starts Worker Housing.
1600BC: We get Philosophy the first and take Classic Education.
1575BC: Philosophy to India for 295g. Philosophy+36g to Germany for Aristocracy.
Classic Education to India for 362g. Classic Education+71g to Germany for Civil Engineering.
Set to Poetry in 9 turns. Found Baghdad.
IBT Palace Gardan is completed and we start Wind Mill. India establishes embassy with us.
1500BC: Philosophy+5g for CoL from Japan. Wheel to Sioux for 156g.
Medina could go 3fpt/6spt or 1fpt/8spt. Make sure not to let it grow to size-8.
We shouldn't spend too many shields on wonders, as in RaR they don't have much more culture than normal improvements (normally just 2cpt instead of 1). So after WM we should go for Monument/Acadamy/Arena/etc. Cheap ones go first. (I should have built Monument first I guess)
But I guess we are going for Great Library?
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2001
- Messages
- 20,064
microbe said:
We do want to get the Great Wonders that also have benefits we like. Great Library is one of those for keeping up with tech. We want Silks Road for the revenue improvement. Right now we want anything with tourism bonus while the game is early. Palace Gardens was a great call. Heroic Epic has no bonus and should be ignored for now or used as a pre-build.
Signed up:
LKendter (on deck)
Kaiser_Berger
Microbe
Sanabas (currently playing)
Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
While there are no specific variant restrictions remember the basic goal is a semi-passive 25K. War should be to trim the leader, stop a launch, or to grab a critical resource.
Got it. I don't think great Library is that important in RaR, Silk Road is much more important to us. Great Library expires relatively early, and if there's other tourism wonders available, it's very feasible to bypass literature until we need a library for something like copernicus', and make up the other techs with encyclopedie. Not being able to prebuild is also a factor in my reasoning.
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2001
- Messages
- 20,064
I agree as Silk Road also has tourism and the extra revenue will really help with tech research. Now we need to build Academy and The Academy in the capitol at some point.sanabas said:
We may want to keep Heroic Epic (no tourism) around as a small pre-build.sanabas said:
Sorry, didn't type that as clearly as I meant to. Because Library is a prerequisite for Great Library, and both become available at literature, it's not possible to do any sort of prebuild for the great library. Can prebuild/rush to finish the library the turn you get literature, but then TGL is started from scratch.
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2001
- Messages
- 20,064
I got a chance to look at the game. We now have construction and mines. We need to get some more workers, and to get mines on the flood plains, hills, and forest. RaR actually is slower for initial culture with all the production boasters to build. We are almost ready for culture and need to build it quickly.
I have a question for the team. Should we head toward democracy with a cash rush government? We might be able to partially rush some additional culture in the capitol.
I have a question for the team. Should we head toward democracy with a cash rush government? We might be able to partially rush some additional culture in the capitol.
Exactly what I was about to ask. We definitely should be on democracy, for the extra commerce, the higher rate cap and for the cash rush ability. We can also mine most of Mecca's terrain, and should ASAP. We'll reach close to 40 shields, possibly higher in mecca when we do, which means we should be able to build a AA tourism wonder every 8-10 turns until we run out. Anyway, played my turns, and they were:
1500BC: All looks good, we really need that incense to the south of Mecca, it's a prereq for a lot of culture. So I change Medina to a pioneer to settle next to the incense, build a shrine then a temple, and pinch the incense with culture, as that's preferable to starting a war.
1475: zzz, except there was a worker on a goto to the silks, that should have been mining in Mecca, and I didn't notice it until it moved.
1450: Silks connected
IBT: Sioux building Stonehedge
1425: India & Germany have Republic
Pop a hut and recieve Naval Warfare, sell it to India for 143 gold.
IBT: Korea building Colossus
1400: zzz
IBT: Research poetry --->maths (for silk road)
1375: Mecca Water Mill ---> Shrine (micromanage mecca to move from 18 to 20 shields to get shrine in 1 turn)
Medina Pioneer ----> worker
Buy Republic from Germany for poetry & 85 gold
Sell poetry to India for 87 gold. We don't need republic, but it's a net cost of 0 to get it, and we can sell it to the other AI civs when they get something useful for us.
IBT: India building Mausoleum
1350: Mecca Shrine ---> Hanging Gardens (Silk road prebuild)
Damascus Archer---> worker
IBT: Japan building hanging gardens
1325: Baghdad worker--->worker
India & Germany now have Democracy & Monotheism. Personally I'd buy democracy & revolt at this point, but it can wait the 3 more turns until the next player so everyone can discuss it.
1300: Germany, India & Korea have maths. Buy maths off Korea for 15 gold, start on Trade.
1275: Medina worker ---> worker
IBT: Sioux complete Hanging Gardens, cascade ends with India completing Mausoleum.
1250: Mecca changed to Stonehedge, still on Silk Road prebuild.
Najran founded, ----> Shrine. Ignore Najran's growth for shields to get the incense ASAP.
Germany & India now have Iron working & Trade as well.
We can buy all 4 available techs off Germany for 830 gold or India for 790 gold. I would recommend buying Democracy & trade, revolting immediately, and then researching Drama and Literature, as they will both have trade value. We don't need to buy the other 2 anytime soon. Long term, once silk road is finished, hopefully we can cash rush Library, Academy & temple (total cost about 1100 gold to get them in 3 turns total, mecca's production should be high enough by then to get them in 5 turns total for minimal cash.) Then stockpile cash while we build great library, cash rush any other available culture & production buildings (arena, wind mill, etc), and start cranking out the wonders.
1500BC: All looks good, we really need that incense to the south of Mecca, it's a prereq for a lot of culture. So I change Medina to a pioneer to settle next to the incense, build a shrine then a temple, and pinch the incense with culture, as that's preferable to starting a war.
1475: zzz, except there was a worker on a goto to the silks, that should have been mining in Mecca, and I didn't notice it until it moved.
1450: Silks connected
IBT: Sioux building Stonehedge
1425: India & Germany have Republic
Pop a hut and recieve Naval Warfare, sell it to India for 143 gold.
IBT: Korea building Colossus
1400: zzz
IBT: Research poetry --->maths (for silk road)
1375: Mecca Water Mill ---> Shrine (micromanage mecca to move from 18 to 20 shields to get shrine in 1 turn)
Medina Pioneer ----> worker
Buy Republic from Germany for poetry & 85 gold
Sell poetry to India for 87 gold. We don't need republic, but it's a net cost of 0 to get it, and we can sell it to the other AI civs when they get something useful for us.
IBT: India building Mausoleum
1350: Mecca Shrine ---> Hanging Gardens (Silk road prebuild)
Damascus Archer---> worker
IBT: Japan building hanging gardens
1325: Baghdad worker--->worker
India & Germany now have Democracy & Monotheism. Personally I'd buy democracy & revolt at this point, but it can wait the 3 more turns until the next player so everyone can discuss it.
1300: Germany, India & Korea have maths. Buy maths off Korea for 15 gold, start on Trade.
1275: Medina worker ---> worker
IBT: Sioux complete Hanging Gardens, cascade ends with India completing Mausoleum.
1250: Mecca changed to Stonehedge, still on Silk Road prebuild.
Najran founded, ----> Shrine. Ignore Najran's growth for shields to get the incense ASAP.
Germany & India now have Iron working & Trade as well.
We can buy all 4 available techs off Germany for 830 gold or India for 790 gold. I would recommend buying Democracy & trade, revolting immediately, and then researching Drama and Literature, as they will both have trade value. We don't need to buy the other 2 anytime soon. Long term, once silk road is finished, hopefully we can cash rush Library, Academy & temple (total cost about 1100 gold to get them in 3 turns total, mecca's production should be high enough by then to get them in 5 turns total for minimal cash.) Then stockpile cash while we build great library, cash rush any other available culture & production buildings (arena, wind mill, etc), and start cranking out the wonders.
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2001
- Messages
- 20,064
Signed up:
LKendter (currently playing)
Kaiser_Berger (on deck)
Microbe
Sanabas
Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
While there are no specific variant restrictions remember the basic goal is a semi-passive 25K. War should be to trim the leader, stop a launch, or to grab a critical resource.
LKendter (currently playing)
Kaiser_Berger (on deck)
Microbe
Sanabas
Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
While there are no specific variant restrictions remember the basic goal is a semi-passive 25K. War should be to trim the leader, stop a launch, or to grab a critical resource.
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2001
- Messages
- 20,064
1250 BC
Najran is with the range of the 21 tiles of Oglala. This kills AI attitudes, and goes totally against the grain of a semi-passive 25K. This is a warlike action to me. I switch it to worker to abandon it in 2 turns.
I change Medina to spearman with another settler after than. We must continue to expand our empire.
I buy Democracy from India for $290. I will save the rest of the cash for rushing.
1200 BC
I cash rush a shrine in Baghdad. Gold is needed for a lot of the later income buildings and I want it more inside our borders. I partial rush a forge (due in 2) in Medina to speed up the building of future settlers and escorts.
I give tech backwards France Polytheism and Naval Warfare for $18 and a barbarian worker.
I ship The Sioux Poetry for $156.
(IT) The next research project is currency that no civ has.
1175 BC
(IT) A barb runs away from our scout.
Najran is abandon in favor of a worker.
1100 BC
The final civ of English is meet. They have the exact same techs as India and Germany.
(IT) Slave Trade is completed. The reason I went for this is the production boast in all cities for the free slave markets, future tourism, and colossus effect in the capital until the industrial age.
1075 BC
(IT) The English complete the Sphinx.
1050 BC
I ship Republic to The Sioux for Monotheism.
I ship Republic to Korea for Seafaring and $4.
I ship Republic to Japan for Riding and $6.
I ship Democracy to the Sioux for Elephant Training. We don't have Elephants at this time, but you never know.
The only tech we are down is Iron Working.
(IT)
There are massive barbarian uprisings near Medina.
1025 BC
Currency is bought for $13 from Germany. I start on Drama so that the culture strong theater can be built.
1000 BC
Our only archer can't kill that annoying barb near Medina.
Currency goes to Japan for Iron Working. We are close to entering the Middle Ages.
==========================
Summary:
The reason I am building the Great Wall is that is has *3* culture. That is good for a RaR great wonder. We want as many high culture buildings as possible that can double. Silks Road takes longer, so in the worst case we build Silks Road earlier. I would build Silks Road after The Great Wall.
The newest settler pair is heading toward the horses. The city won't be great until irrigation, but horses are a very important resource. We need to explore more that way to determine how many more city sites are available. Our empire is very small.
Our culture rating isn't very strong yet, but if we get the two planned wonders we gain 5 more culture a turn.
Signed up:
LKendter
Kaiser_Berger (currently playing)
Microbe (on deck)
Sanabas
Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
While there are no specific variant restrictions remember the basic goal is a semi-passive 25K.
War should be to trim the leader, stop a launch, or to grab a critical resource.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK93-1000BC.zip
Najran is with the range of the 21 tiles of Oglala. This kills AI attitudes, and goes totally against the grain of a semi-passive 25K. This is a warlike action to me. I switch it to worker to abandon it in 2 turns.
I change Medina to spearman with another settler after than. We must continue to expand our empire.
I buy Democracy from India for $290. I will save the rest of the cash for rushing.
1200 BC
I cash rush a shrine in Baghdad. Gold is needed for a lot of the later income buildings and I want it more inside our borders. I partial rush a forge (due in 2) in Medina to speed up the building of future settlers and escorts.
I give tech backwards France Polytheism and Naval Warfare for $18 and a barbarian worker.
I ship The Sioux Poetry for $156.
(IT) The next research project is currency that no civ has.
1175 BC
(IT) A barb runs away from our scout.
Najran is abandon in favor of a worker.
1100 BC
The final civ of English is meet. They have the exact same techs as India and Germany.
(IT) Slave Trade is completed. The reason I went for this is the production boast in all cities for the free slave markets, future tourism, and colossus effect in the capital until the industrial age.
1075 BC
(IT) The English complete the Sphinx.
1050 BC
I ship Republic to The Sioux for Monotheism.
I ship Republic to Korea for Seafaring and $4.
I ship Republic to Japan for Riding and $6.
I ship Democracy to the Sioux for Elephant Training. We don't have Elephants at this time, but you never know.
The only tech we are down is Iron Working.
(IT)
There are massive barbarian uprisings near Medina.1025 BC
Currency is bought for $13 from Germany. I start on Drama so that the culture strong theater can be built.
1000 BC
Our only archer can't kill that annoying barb near Medina.
Currency goes to Japan for Iron Working. We are close to entering the Middle Ages.
==========================
Summary:
The reason I am building the Great Wall is that is has *3* culture. That is good for a RaR great wonder. We want as many high culture buildings as possible that can double. Silks Road takes longer, so in the worst case we build Silks Road earlier. I would build Silks Road after The Great Wall.
The newest settler pair is heading toward the horses. The city won't be great until irrigation, but horses are a very important resource. We need to explore more that way to determine how many more city sites are available. Our empire is very small.
Our culture rating isn't very strong yet, but if we get the two planned wonders we gain 5 more culture a turn.
Signed up:
LKendter
Kaiser_Berger (currently playing)
Microbe (on deck)
Sanabas
Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
While there are no specific variant restrictions remember the basic goal is a semi-passive 25K.
War should be to trim the leader, stop a launch, or to grab a critical resource.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK93-1000BC.zip
microbe
Cascaded Mansion
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2003
- Messages
- 4,596
It's quite wasteful to abandon a city for a worker. We essentially wasted 2 pops and 20 shields, or 1 pop and 50 shields.
I understand your reaction, and agree it wasn't founded in the right way, but isn't it a bit paranoid? I didn't look at the map though.
I understand your reaction, and agree it wasn't founded in the right way, but isn't it a bit paranoid? I didn't look at the map though.
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2001
- Messages
- 20,064
This is another wonder to really think about. The capitol can have one of the monuments of the three needed. 2 CPT for 300 shields is typical for RaR. More important is this wonder is 1/2 of our GA. If we swap the capitol to Stonehenge we have the other half. IMHO you can't have an early enough GA with 25K goal. The really early culture that doubles is quite a way to a victory. Are there any comments from the team?
I disagree that founding Najran there is warlike, and I've honestly never noticed the AI attitude getting worse when I do. It's just the attitude of that AI, not a rep hit, yeah?
And even if you consider it warlike, it's less aggressive than actually declaring war, so I consider it definitely within the spirit of a semi-passive game. As you have said multiple times:
Incense is extremely critical, especially as we need culture.
And even if you consider it warlike, it's less aggressive than actually declaring war, so I consider it definitely within the spirit of a semi-passive game. As you have said multiple times:
Incense is extremely critical, especially as we need culture.
Doc Tsiolkovski
Deity
It is definitely a provocation. Don't even think the attitude itself gets worse, I think it is an independant reason to declare on you, like weakness or having a resource they need.
Unless they are substantially weaker, they will declare at some point for no othre reason.
Lee:
You should go for the Pyramids for the REL trait. Except for Angkor Wat (and that one is hard to get), the MA REL Wonders require Incense, so you better don't rely on that. OTOH, about the time you get the Pyramids, you'll have Chivalry as well.
Slave Trade gives no tourism, btw. And only 1 cpt. Still a useful wonder, but no must-have for 20k games.
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2001
- Messages
- 20,064
sanabas said:
I have had games where a city like this was founded, and war with they AI I overlapped occured within 10 turns.
We are in no position at this time to risk a war IMO.
I agree incense is critical. However, we haven't even explored the lands near us to the north. There may be another conflict free source.
