LK95 - Raze Three to Dominate the World V2, mystery civ

[microbe]

Did we use a leader to rush a temple in Nanking???????

Well it sounded like that didn't it? Seriously, how silly that would be?

With the resources, can we figure out who Germany embargoed us with? If so, if we get Germany to declare on them, we can then trade them stuff. Might be worth looking into.

I don't know if everyone reports embargos. If so, go back and read the logs. But if two guys are at war with us and sign embargo maybe we don't get the notice.

The Japanese incense has to be a high priority, as does a native source of horses. Gems was our third luxury (I believe), so incense would make 4, which would greatly ease our happiness burden, which would be nice.

We already have a native horse source. But this town could be attacked by Egypt cavalry in one turn so please send some reinforcement or cut the road.

Since Microbe cut out the mini-maps, there's no way to get a sense of how the world is doing against Egypt.

She is not shrinking. She has infantry, and you know AI can't handle that too well.

 

[microbe]

Leftover raze credit from previous player: 0
New razes from current player: 0 + Khabarovsk = 1
New raze credit current: 1
Number of new cities to acquire: 2 - Nanking = 1

Actually, I founded another town on the horses (did I forget to mention?), so I think we cannot found more cities..

 

[LKendter]

Leftover raze credit from previous player: 0
New razes from current player: 0 + Khabarovsk = 1
New raze credit current: 1
Number of new cities to acquire: 2 - Nanking, Horse City = 0

 

[meldor]

I don't know if everyone reports embargos. If so, go back and read the logs. But if two guys are at war with us and sign embargo maybe we don't get the notice.

Go to the trade screen, select the 2nd (middle) unsed tab. Select embargos, and it will show you the pairs that have embargos against us.

 

[LKendter]

I have no intention of running another one of these in the near future. However, I do agree the count issue is a headache. The simplified rule for FUTURE games is suggested below. The reason for the convoluted count is what was in italics.

If we lose a city the razed count goes back to zero and we forfeit the right to acquire 1 city. If we had the right to acquire 3 cities, the new count would be 2.
IS REPLACED WITH:
If we lose a city the razed count goes down by 3. It is possible for the count to be negative.

 

[LKendter]

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK95-1150AD.zip


1050 AD
Egypt and Japan will talk. I think continuing to fight Japan is a waste of time. Egypt is the run away civ. Any focus outside of Egypt gains us very little.


1060 AD
Kagoshima is razed for $0, 2 workers, 2 catapults and 1 trebuchet.
I give Japan $10 to save 3 turns on Magnetism.
This ends the Japan and Egypt trade embargo.
I ship Japan our spare Silks for wm, $16 and $13/turn.


1070 AD
(IT) I nervously watch two Egyptian troops convoys float around the iron island, but nothing lands.


1080 AD
I end the phony war with the Celts and get $4.
(IT) The Egyptian movement patterns really look like the want to land, but again nothing happens. I don't want to deal with infantry on the iron island.


1090 AD
(IT) The Byzantines and Celts sign a peace treaty that is immediately followed by the Celts declaring war on the Byzantines.
This had to be MPP tripped.
The China and Germany trade embargo ends.

Egypt lands 2 infantry on the iron island.


1100 AD
I ship Germany iron, dyes and gems and get Theory of Gravity and $55 in return. We are getting closer on the tech picture as Germany and Japan lack Steam Power.

Buying isn't practical at this time as is would require 0% luxuries and I don't know if I would get any GPT from Japan or Germany. I do plan to check every turn. I hope a turn or two of research will be enough to make the difference.
(IT) China and the Celts sign a peace treaty.
Our Musketeer kills one of the attacking infantry. The other one dies, but the infantry drops to 1 hp.


1110 AD
The newly landed cavalry kills the 1 HP infantry. The latest iron island crisis is solved. The trouble is more Egyptian ships are sailing around the island.

I can now get Rails with only dropping luxuries to 10%. I am surprised one turn of researched helped that much. I was expecting at least 2 to 3 turns of research
I get a discount by including an embargo against Egypt. IMO we should embargo Egypt the rest of the game.
$446 and $198/turn go to China for Steam Power.

We have one lousy coal source. We can now call it the iron and coal island. I already have 2 more muskets heading that way, and based on it having the ONLY coal in our empire even more will go that way.
I make the deal a 2 for 1 and give Germany Steam Power for Medicine, $55 and $8/turn. Getting Medicine from Germany shows me something totally unexpected. Germany already has Sanitation, but lacks Nationalism. That is a very odd thing to see.
It turns into a 3 for 1 deal as Japan is in the same situation as Germany. I give Japan Steam Power for Sanitation, wm and $10/turn. We are in NO position to build hospitals at this time due to the misery situation, but having the option is a good thing.

Everything we have left can't get us incense. I have to hire a ton of temporary specialist and clowns. I also swap library builds away as no self-research can occur in the next 20 turns. The lack of churches really hurts right now as the cities with churches need no specialist.

Our economy is trashed with $24/turn to spare and $55 in the bank. Rails are one of the only techs I will do that for as getting a military rail-net will do wonders for the wars.

I sign an embargo with the Byzantines against Egypt. We really want keep resources and luxuries out of the hands of the tech leaders.
(IT) The embargo from the Celts and Egypt ends.
Germany and Japan sign a peace treaty.

The Celts start a war back up due to the MPP with Egypt. I can only guess it started as I have units in Egyptian territory.


1130 AD
The single cavalry landing on the iron and coal landing is destroyed.
Well it is clear how we can catch up on tech. We need to raze some Egyptian cities for the booty!

1140 AD
Rennes is formed and we claim luxury #4 of furs. This breaks the OCP goal of the cities, but I wanted those furs impossible to pillage by settling ON the furs. Now it is time for the joy of firing a lot of clowns and specialist.
(IT) The China and Byzantine trade embargo ends.
The stupid wars continue as the Celts declare on China.

==========================


Summary:
Our best hope for tech is that Germany continues to lack iron. That is what setup the trading rounds that netted 4 techs.

Keep building up troops, including cannons, one the iron and coal island.

This sounds really crazy, but we need to start INCREASING our worker force again. We have a ton of lands to rail at this point. With being industrious natural workers are better then the free ones. I already peeled a couple of workers out of cities with full food boxes and we need to keep that going.

IMO the Egyptian war can't stop until we see a tank. They are still the #1 threat with having Hoover, Smiths and being the tech leader. In addition, razed Egyptian cities will give us the cash to get caught up on tech quicker. Did I mention they are the #1 culture win threat? Once we are up to infantry and artillery they may fund the massive upgrading effort.


Signed up:
LKendter
Greebley (currently playing)
Meldor (on deck? - skipped other games today due to flu)
Arathorn
Microbe

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Don't forget the variant rules in the first post.

Leftover raze credit from previous player: 1
New razes from current player: 1 + Kagoshima, Tatung,
New raze credit current: 3
Number of new cities to acquire: 1 - Rennes = 0

Some pictures from the front:
This is the coal and iron island. The coal is hiding under Cherbourg. You can see the start of rail-net.

This is the current front with Egypt. The cannon SoD is hiding under the forward cavalry army. Greebley gets to decide on the next city to attack. Abydos is more of a core city, but probably is better defended. The second cavalry army can come of guard duty of the worker stack next turn. Most of the workers should be freed up to go to the interior to continue to build the rail-net. I like to hide very large worker stacks under armies to avoid risking any possible loss.
I have been ONLY attacking with one of the two armies. I refuse to risk both armies getting weak enough to be attacked and losing the large cannon stack. That would end our war making abilities.

 

[Arathorn]

Good news:
- We have Steam Power and are up to the Industrial Age.
- We have Coal, so we can rail!!!
- Twofer/threefer possibilities with techs (thanks Germany and Japan). We need to continue to take advantage of those.
- Minimal rails in Egypt -- no rails will slow them down.
- A fourth luxury! That's worth a church in every city and probably cost less shields than 160*our_number_of_cities. A fifth lux will solve happiness for most cities for a LONG time.

Bad news:
- At least one railroad in Egypt -- they either have coal or got it for a while -- danger might be mounting.
- Trashed economy again, with factories still not available. (Mind, I agree it was worth it for rails but factories are also HUGE.)
- Not enough workers (but nobody ever has enough when rails come along). I suggest following Lee's start and stripping workers off full-size cities with full food boxes. After rails, they can merge into our new towns to get cities quickly and/or into metros after we make time to build a few hospitals.

Other random thoughts:
- Remember that factories require iron, so don't trade away our last iron to get Industrialization. It's not worth it.
- We get the same gold for each city razed, regardless of size, so I would go for the smaller first, to get us $$$ and more city credits. We do need to hit Cleo's core, but we're not in a HUGE hurry. Starting when we did meant Egypt didn't get too huge a lead to overcome. Cav armies vs. infantry is an OK place to be.

Arathorn

 

[microbe]

Nice turns. Seems we are on track.

 

[LKendter]

Trashed economy again, with factories still not available. (Mind, I agree it was worth it for rails but factories are also HUGE.)

I agree we really want factories, but our economy has its limits. We are trying to stay in war mode. Several AI civs have already fought us making another war very likely. A military rail-net will do wonders for keeping the war going. We are at least starting to squeeze more shields from our empire and it is getting easier to defend.

Remember that factories require iron, so don't trade away our last iron to get Industrialization. It's not worth it.

A bigger problem is that would stop our ability to lay new rails. In around 15 turns I would trade Germany our spare iron, but we can't drop to none.

I suggest following Lee's start and stripping workers off full-size cities with full food boxes.

We get 2 that way, and at least more due next turn. I would also strip that in cities that will grow and hire a specialist. Rails are much more valuable then a scientist or clown.

We do need to hit Cleo's core, but we're not in a HUGE hurry.

I am not so sure. We don't know how close tanks are, and that would END our fighting ability until we reach infantry.

 

[Greebley]

I got it. I have one game to play before this one.

 

[LKendter]

We get the same gold for each city razed, regardless of size, so I would go for the smaller first, to get us $$$ and more city credits.

Arathorn's comment about all cities razes generating the same amount of cash didn't feel right. I set up the below contrived scenario.

Note the amount of gold if I take Thebes first:

Note the amount of gold if I take Memphis first:

The size of the city very much matters and taking out larger cities don't just hurt Egypt more, but the line our pockets better.

 

[Arathorn]

Thanks, Lee. I wonder what the exact formula is. Maybe I should research that.

Arathorn

 

[Greebley]

Heres a theory. You count Town as 1, city as 2 and Metropolis as 3. Add up the total for the empire.

If Thebes and Memphis were the only 2 cities (I don't think they are) then you would get 1/4 the gold from Thebes and 3/4 the gold from Memphis.

Lee, is there another city that is the capitol? If that capitol was size 1, the AI had 10 gold. Then 1+1+3 = 5 and memphis would be worth 10 * 3 / 5 which is 6 gold which isn't the case. If the capiol counted as one more then it would work.

A town would be 1/6, so 10 * 1/ 6 = 2 rounded off.
A metropolis would be 3/6, so 10 * 3/6 = 5 gold.

This is all pure speculation on very little data. Easy enough to test though.

Another example to help clarify:
If you had 3 towns, 4 city, 2 Metropolis, and a Metropolis capitol you would get:
3 * 1 + 4 * 2 + 2 * 3 + 4 = 21

So each town would be worth 1/21 of the total gold.
Each city would be worth 2/21 of the total gold.
Each Metropolis would be worth 3/21 of the total gold.
The capitol would be worth 4/21 of the total gold.

------------------------------------------------------
Note the above is pure speculation so don't take it as fact unless someone proves it. There is a lot of guesswork here. It wouldn't be too hard to set up and test though.

[Edit: I am starting to play now...

 

[Greebley]

Preturn: I investigate whether stealing techs is more cost effective than self research. Stealing from Japan is about 1/2 the cost. Since without the Intelligence Agency we have 1/2 chance of success (more or less), it seems either way could work. Buying is probably about the same too. I think I will save cash for greater flexibility.

IBT: 4 Cavalry attack Rennes. Lose a Musket
Memphis completes Hoover.

1160 AD: Heavily fortify Rennes. Start backbuilding the Rail network. The attack stack head toward Abydos.

IBT: Japan and China sign peace.
Egypt declares war on the Japanese.

1170 AD: Raze Abydos for 585 gold (size 9) netting 4 workers. The Army and Cavalry go after Anyang and I Raze Anyang with the loss of 2 Cavalry. Army that attacked retreats to a town with barracks to heal.

Egypt is fighting everyone on our continent (so not the Celts).

It turns out the cost to buy is more than the cost to research, however we have more money making buildings than science.


1180 AD: Move stack toward Stuttgart.

IBT: Watch the Japanese take a Egyptian Town.

1190 AD: Raze Stuttgart
Build Strassbourg

There is a trade opportunity here I cannot pass up even though it risks war with the Byzantines.
Steal Electricity from the Byzantines.
Trade Electricity, 5 gpt and 95 gold to Germany for Industrialization
Unfortunately, I can't do the final part of the deal I saw. Electricity and Industialization with all our 60 gpt does not buy us Nationalism.

Japan does have Incense now, so I do a trade:
Industrialization for Incense, Economics (marginally useful - wealth is worth more), and small change.
The nice thing is we can reduce Lux to 0 and fire all scientists with the incense.

1200 AD: Raze Avaris. Egypt doesn't have coal anymore. Some towns are starting factories.

1210 AD: Raze Vladavodstock. Lose a Cav vs a 1 hp Infantry while doing so.
Bombard and Kill an Island landing (some Cannon were left on the isle)

IBT: Egypt and Germany make Peace.

1220 AD: ROP with Japan

1230 AD:
Raze Yakusk losing 2 Cavalry.
Build New Paris That name is a good sign.

1240 AD:

1250 AD:
Autoraze Bryansk

Notes:

We have an ROP with Japan so defend the towns

I am unsure we hurt Egypt that much with the 7 towns we razed as they were all small. However we did stop them from growing, picked up about 2700 in cash, and 10 or so workers.

Was tired at the end. No real MM for a few turns.

Random Pic of the warzone.

 

[Arathorn]

Got it. Won't play until tonight, at the earliest, so I can get a bit of clarfification. We're at 1 of 3 razes needed for a new city, right?

Basic plan is to continue thumping Egypt until they're not the biggest threat, even though it probably means continuing to stick cities out into a longer and longer front.

I'll probably also try to sneak in a few factories and probably hospitals, too. And maybe try to move us towards Replaceable Parts, as infantry and artillery would be insanely handy. Cannons and musketeers are good, but we are going to need real defenders again soon.

Arathorn

 

[LKendter]

There is a trade opportunity here I cannot pass up even though it risks war with the Byzantines.
Steal Electricity from the Byzantines.

We get lucky this time. However, a war with the Byzantines really scares me as they also have infantry. I would hate to be forced to stop the Egypt war due to the Byzantines.

I was right that the huge cash blocks from razing Egyptian cities would pay off.

Bombard and Kill an Island landing (some Cannon were left on the isle)

I think some were being built when I handed it over. I would like a pretty healthy stack on the island in case we get a 5 infantry landing.

I am unsure we hurt Egypt that much with the 7 towns we razed as they were all small.

Egypt had dyes as of 1150 AD, but lacks them in 1250 AD. A loss of a luxury really hurts them.
With them being fascists, we took away quite a bit of free unit support as even the smallest city gives 4 free units.

@Greebley - I am curious how you picked the location for New Paris. It is crammed tight against a Japanese city, yet to the east of Strasbourg seems wide open.

There is a lot of Egyptian rifles on the map. Did we raze a rubber source?

==============================================

Right now my biggest worry is weak defense on the border towns. If China gets tempted by us the could easily raze 3 to 4 border towns with cavalry. Once those factories complete we really need to pump out some muskets and get at least 2 quality defenders in the border towns.

I think it is time for military academy in Paris after the factory.

I noticed a sleeping caravel in Dijon - please wake up those cannons in case another landing happens.

The good news is we have hit #1 for number of cities and percentage of world.
We still have plenty of work ahead of us. Egypt is still a serious threat and the Byzantines are by no means a wimp.

Basic plan is to continue thumping Egypt until they're not the biggest threat, even though it probably means continuing to stick cities out into a longer and longer front.

Keep hitting them until they are #2 or tanks show up.

However, there is NO reason to create a longer front. We can simply horde the right to build cities for when we can build them in more logical locations.


Signed up:
LKendter
Greebley
Meldor (I suspect still on flu skip)
Arathorn (currently playing)
Microbe (on deck)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Don't forget the variant rules in the first post.

Leftover raze credit from previous player: 0
New razes from current player: Abydos, Anyang, Stuttgart, Avaris, Vladivostok, Yakutsk, and Bryansk
New raze credit current: 7
Number of new cities to acquire: 2 used to build Strasbourg, New Paris
New raze credit: 1

 

[Greebley]

The island has been keeping its cannon.

This reminds me though:
I put some units into a boat thinking to ship over. They should be woken up.

I thought long and hard on the Byz tech steal. If we had ended up at war with Byz, I probably would have allied Japan against them. It was a risk, but we are far enough behind in tech and needed both Electricity and Industrialization enough to warrant it. Also at the time I though we would get 3 techs for it. Nationalism though was more than twice as much as those two techs.

Note that the two cities I place were placed entirely due to Strategic locations rather than desirabilty of terrain or closeness to water. One watches over the gap into Egyptian lands and the other gives us flexibility - it is behind jungle allowing us to attack outward while Egypt has to stop in the jungle to give us an attack.

We don't know if we razed their Rubber, but I have been seeing more and more rifles.

 

[Greebley]

One other question: We could trade for or research Nationalism at full and go for Espionage after Rep Parts. As Lee mentions, going to war is a real risk of Tech stealing. However the cost of buying techs is prohibitive and supplies the enemy with cash, research is inflexible and also more expensive.

Stealing from our enemies would be much better. I think we win in the long run if we do this. What do you all think?

 

[LKendter]

Stealing from our enemies would be much better. I think we win in the long run if we do this. What do you all think?

Once we have spies, the spy agency, and can steal from civs we are ALREADY AT WAR with. That IMO is the best way to steal as there is NO risk. Stealing from Egypt would be great as they give US the money for the steals.

I think espionage needs to be our next tech target. The trouble is we need the ultra expensive nationalism first, and not via minimum research. The trouble is how many more diplomatic steals can we afford to risk. The failure rate on those is much higher. Do we start researching Nationalism to build to a discount on it?

 

[Greebley]

I would like to get rep parts first. We desperately need a better defensive unit than 4 and artillery would be almost required for those larger cities of Egypt.

I was trying to say the same thing you did. I used "enemies" to mean ppl we were at war with. Not very clear on my part.

Also note that if we get Rep Parts first we could try trading it for Nationalism.