LK95 - Raze Three to Dominate the World V2, mystery civ

[Greebley]

I was assuming the Samuri vs the warrior would win. The musket would fight the second warrior.

Egypt and China will sign an Alliance. Byzantines require an MPP as you state. The question I was asking is do we want the MPP with Byz. The alternative is to fight them as they have an MPP with Japan.

I think we are saying the same thing here.

 

[microbe]

If you sign MPP, make sure you do not sign MA until the MPP triggers.

If you do not sign MPP, make sure to get some gpt deal out of Byzantines first, and be prepared to MA with China against Byzantine as well.

 

[LKendter]

The question I was asking is do we want the MPP with Byz. The alternative is to fight them as they have an MPP with Japan.

I think we are saying the same thing here.

Do we really want to fight 2 civs at the same time with our terrible defensive position? The Byzantines have rifles. Do you really want to fight rifles with MDI?

If we are commited to the 20-turn version, the MPP is mandatory IMO.

 

[Arathorn]

Definitely agree on joining WITH Byzantines, not fighting against them. They're a key ally (or even THE key ally), as they will pull Japan in multiple directions. 20+ turn wars was one of the reasons I thought we went with Monarchy in the first place. I have no problem with that. China is the other key, as fighting them, too, would be problematic at best and disastrous at worse. Egypt is completely optional, IMO. If they join against us, ally Germany against them and let those two fight each other and build bad blood while we concentrate on nearer foes.

Agreed with Greebley on the CHANCE of keeping all our island villages, as the AI might not attack with a musket, and we darn well better have two warriors in that town by the time Japan moves. If we can survive one turn, we can have more troops there by the second time Japan moves and it MIGHT work out, depending on what the ships are holding.

Fighting rifles with MDI? <Shrug> It happens. Enough trebuchets and/or cannons and it's fine. The odds are actually better for the attacker than fighting infantry with cavalry, and everybody does that all the time. That's the least of my concerns.

Arathorn

 

[Greebley]

If we don't ally then Japan could ally China against us. I don't think we have a choice. Trying to fight Japan, China, and Byz and we will lose too many cities.

I see a 20 turn Alliances as much less risky. It sounds like pretty much everybody agrees. Microbes point with the MPP is a valid one, otherwise the Byz and China may end up at war. I will see what I can do to avoid that.

 

[Greebley]

Preturn: Load up a previous save and see that Japan moves before China. So we should be ok making the MPP and Alliances this turn.

First I rush a Musketeer in our Iron Town and switch the courthouses to Musketeers on the Island.

Then I switch most cathedrals to things that finish earlier sometimes at a minor shield loss in some towns. Lower Lux to 10% and remove all scientists that we have. Only Beascon is far enough along and has nothing to good switch too. It will finish the Cathedral.

One town was building a Cathedral before a Market. Odd choice. That one is easy to switch to Market in 1 turn.

We Trade with Byz to Get the MPP.

We trade China World Map 91 gpt and our 7 gold for Horses, Chivalry, and An alliance vs Japan.

Egypt's Alliance is expensive so I end up skipping them.

We get our Iron back next turn and can build knights.

IBT: On the island, the Samuri kills the Warrior in the town. The musket loses vs the second warrior and we keep the town! A pike (town is on a hill) is attacked by a Samuri and wins. We lose an MDI who is the second defender

650 AD: We pick up Republic from the celts for Monotheism and Feudalism

I boat over a musket to the island. With the 3 muskets built we have one for every city and a warrior on the iron hill. There are also 2 warriors in the town near the Samuri to keep Japan from taking it.

I trade Japan Silks and 71 gpt for Metallurgy.

Cancel our iron deal and we can build knights. I am now building Knights (MM cities to optimize builds - capitol builds knights in 2 turns), Cannon, and Musketeers.

Buying Metallurgy tied up most of our gold. We need better Artillery if we have to handle Rifle defended cities.

IBT: We lose another worker to the Samuri on the island. A Caravel sinks our Galley. We lose another MDI in the same town. However we complete wall this turn.

660 AD: Move Musketeers to defend our towns.

IBT: The only attack from Japan is on the Island. The Samuri loses to our Musketeer and there are no more enemy troops on the island.

670 AD: Almost every town has at least 1 Musketeer. We build our first Cannon and Knight. Kill a Longbow.

IBT: Our second galley is Sunk. However the Japanese ship presense is completely gone.

680 AD: Things are starting to look good now. Thinking about an offensive. Not a peep from Japan.

IBT:

690 AD: Move next to the isolated town. It is guarded by a Musket.

IBT: Japanese have Cavalry [Edit: I keep calling the Japanese Germans. Fixed the wording. If I use German elsewhere I probably mean Japan ]

700 AD: Attack Fukushima. Bombard misses. Two MDI win vs reg muskets. The Knight loses vs a reg Musket.

IBT: Our galley loses again. This is getting annoying. We are 0 for 3 at even odds. These are not Frigates that are attacking.

710 AD: Wait for another Knight.

IBT: A Musket is annoying us.

720 AD: Bombard and Attack Fukushima. We Raze it without loss

Trade Byzantine Dyes and 82 gpt for Mil Tradition (Some deals ended). Hmm... Unfortunately we lost a Lux as well. Since I was unable to complete the Cathedrals we need to hire scientists - about 1 per city.

Trade Mil Trad and 18 gold for Banking (we need banks).

IBT:

730 AD: Advance on Nagoya.

IBT: Rouen is attacked and loses a Muskeeteer and MDI

740 AD: Bombard and attack Nagoya (guarded by Samuri). Lose 1 MDI and Raze Nagoya

IBT: Lose another Musketeer.

750 AD: Head back into town to defend.

Notes:
We Razed two towns and managed not to lose any. Yay! The Japanese cities were defended by Muskets and Samuri.

On Meldor's turn we can start the offensive. I think we want to take enough towns to own our own horses. It would also be nice to have enough Razes so that we can Raze Nanking and get the Lux at the start of a future chinese war.

We are really broke. I overspent and had to use some trick to get us to break even. We are building a bank in the capitol.

I merged a bunch of workers to boost production.

Be careful about lessening defenses in cities. That will attract the Japanese Cavalry.
Gained 4 techs but two were Optional (Chivalry and Mil Trad). We still don't have Astronomy.

For the war if Japan wants to replace his towns, then let him. After they settle then take out the town again. That will build up our town credits.

We probably want at least one town building a bank.

Sorry to nix all the Cathedrals, but It was my opinion that it was necessary. An AI facing multiple opponents will attack the one with the weakest cities. By getting our defense up, we were not attacked (which would have cost us more units and made us more likely to be attacked again). To make up for it, I am hoping we can steal Japan's Incense (and horses).

Rheims needs a worker merged into it. It is at 19 shields.

Marseilles needs 2 more MP.

We have:
19 Workers
8 Warrior
2 Spear
5 Pike
4 Knights
1 Cavalry
12 Cannon
20 Musketeers
12 MDI

[Edit: We have 4 Trebs too]

Only 6 slaves so far.

Kudo's on building the Musketeers before the war began. It saved us a number of towns.

 

[microbe]

Nice! Paris was a 3-turn musketeer factory and should continue to do so after the bank. We need a settler as we are only one raze away from another city.

However, our GA is going to end before the deals run out I assume, and that's going to be a problem.

 

[Greebley]

I think we will have one turn with all the deal and not GA. If we save up some cash, that will be fine. It is also possible China will end the war with Japan early and we will get our cash back before the GA ends.

Paris can build Musketeers in 2 turns (35 shields). It was ideal for Knights (two turns also) but we can no longer build those). [Edit: or are you talking about when the GA expires?

 

[Arathorn]

Nice, Greebley. I knew the island would be touch-and-go, but not losing any cities was HUGE, especially for this variant. I know luck played a role, but good job on getting reinforcements there.

I propose a goal for this war of razing Shimoneski, Satsuma, Ise, and Toyama...not necessarily in that order. On top of Greebley's razes, that would give us 2 city credits, one to go about Satsuma's location (probably one NW or so, to have no overlap with Tokyo, once the border has expanded -- hard to tell exact location without grids) and one to be saved for the China war, as we move east next. If we have extra time, Krasnayorsk would be a good additional raze, but I think those 5 for the ~10 remaining turns would be good.

I expect to war with China on my turn.

I also imagine OCP (approximately) will be the strategy from here out, to maximize the additional tiles gained from each city. True?

Arathorn

 

[meldor]

Arathorn,

I am in major feast mode as I am still up in LK87, LK94 and MLDR06. Could we swap on this one and that should give enough room for me to finish the others up? Thanks!

 

[Arathorn]

That would probably work pretty well for me. My eldest turns 6 today, but I doubt he'll be up that late. I'd love to take a big old bite out of Japan. Consider the swap request accepted.

Arathorn

 

[Bezhukov]

Happy B-day to your eldest!



Given his half-elven blood, he can look forward to many of those to come.

 

[Greebley]

Ya, OCP seems ideal to me. I also like the idea of going for Japan and then China in 10-15 turns. I want to grab those gems and relieve the pressure on our cities.

If we can get both the incense and the gems it will go a long way to relieving our unhappiness problems.

 

[LKendter]

I trade Japan Silks and 71 gpt for Metallurgy.

I know that CAN'T be Japan. The question is who it is really.

We are really broke. I overspent and had to use some trick to get us to break even.

Depending on the timing of the deals we may be in deep trouble when the GA ends.

Sorry to nix all the Cathedrals, but It was my opinion that it was necessary.

I hated to see it, but I agree 100% with the decision. The problem is we still need them. However, with the stretched economy banks need to be first.

Kudo's on building the Musketeers before the war began.

You can thank the team on this one. I found a lot before I got the turn, and I continued to spread them around on my turn.

I also imagine OCP (approximately) will be the strategy from here out, to maximize the additional tiles gained from each city. True?

This is a key to this variant with the qualification of avoiding cultural overlap.


The nice thing on the map is the culture pressure is OFF several of our cities.


Signed up:
LKendter
Greebley
Meldor (on deck)
Arathorn (currently playing)
Microbe

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Don't forget the variant rules in the first post.

Leftover raze credit from previous player: 0
New razes from current player: 0 + Fukushima, Nagoya,
New raze credit current: 2
Number of new cities to build: 0

 

[Greebley]

I think we bought Metallurgy from the Byz.

The overspending is why I suggest we keep a bank build going. I made several GPT deals on the Preturn - 640. We got our GA in 630- 640 IBT. It shouldn't be too bad. We can generate cash when the first bank builds next turn. If we have some savings we will be able to cover that one turn of deficit.

If the celts ever have cash we can trade them tech. Also we might get our money back early if China declares peace early.

 

[Whomp]

lurker's comment: I thought Greebley said anything that was Japan should be Germany as far as trades go.

 

[Greebley]

Other way around. I kept calling Japan Germany because that was the big nasty in LK87 - I think I removed all reference to Germany and replace them with Japan. I kept doing it though.

It is unfortunate; I have a tendency to replace one word with another that has similar meaning to me but is wrong in the given context. Even worse I often don't notice it so I can't fix it other than heavy proof-reading. Sigh.

 

[Arathorn]

(0) 750 - OK, on the new computer -- seeing how it goes. It should be a bit faster in the interturn...I hope I don't miss anything important going by.

Do a fair bit of minor micromanagement, gain some food here, a bit of commerce there, build a barracks before cavalry in Tours, that kind of thing. Somewhere needs to find place for a settler, too. Actually, Tours is best suited for that, so no barracks and a settler to be produced there. We'll grow back the population rapidly.

(I) Repel two cavs from Japan -- both retreat. Musketeers are pretty tough.

(1) 760 - Borrow money from Egypt (1 gpt for 15 gold) to afford a cavalry upgrade, so that we'll have good forces to go after Satsuma in a couple of turns.

(I) Egypt/Japan embargo us.

(2) 770 - March on Satsuma. Clean up a Japanese cavalry.

(I) Germany/Byzantines MPP and MA vs. Japan. Three Japanese cavs attack our stack by Satsuma across a river. They take a total of 1 hp from defensive bombard, two musketeers, and an elite knight defending. I guess that helps our income a bit, but that's not the way I would've chosen to do so.

Egypt declares on China. YAY!

Egyptians start ToE. BOOO!!!

(3) 780 - Trebs/cannons go 7 for 12 against the 7(?) defenders of Satsuma. MDI defeats cav, MDI defeats musket, MDI dies to sam, MDI dies to sam, cav dies to sam (he started with 2 hps), MDI dies to cav, cav dies to cav, cav dies to cav, cav kills cav, cav kills cav, MDI kills cav. And that's it for me.

(I) Jap cav kills musketeer with defensive bombard across a river without breaking a sweat. Did I piss off the PRNG gods at some point?

(4) 790 - Artillery redlines Satsuma defenders. MDI kills cav, knight kills cav, and we raze Satsuma.

MDI on island kills a dropped-off cav.

(I) Jap cav kills a musketeer, no sweat, but then the second (both regular) dies to our elite knight, giving us.... well, pictures are hard to insert. Giving us our first leader.

(5) 800 - Positioning by Shimoneski. Form the cavalry army.

(I) Lose a musket and MDI to enemy cavalry. Their range is so great, it's hard to cover everybody.

(6) 810 - Cav army kills two samurai, cav kills third, and we raze Shimoneski. It's hard to find two reasonable spots here. There are two good spots, but they overlap a fair bit (near the two ex-Japanese cities). After some deliberation, I decide on a river site with lots of land and good potential, but giving up some good coast/sea squares, including two whales. Rails aren't THAT far away, so whales aren't too valuable anymore.

(I) Lose an MDI to yellow-lined cav. Kill a cav in defense. Celts/Germany peace.

Get Heroic Epic and Military Academy messages. Want to start both -- but I'm not sure where.

Paris can do HE in 6 turns, so gets that. Avignon, our FP site, starts Military Academy.

(7) 820 - Just maneveur. Kill a few Japs, of course.

(I) Jap cav kills an exposed MDI, leaving itself open to counterattack. Elite knight who produced a leader is killed on his way east. I need to learn to count better.
Celts/Egypt ally vs. China. Japan/China make peace, so we lose our horses.

(8) 830 - At Ise, yellowline musket and see a cav. MDI kills cav, cav kills musket and we raze Ise.
Horses cost 64 gpt+ from China. No thanks. We'll try to get our own at that price.

(I) Japan finds 6 cavalry to attack our settler stack, losing one, killing a musketeer, and retreating lots.
Egypt demands TM and 23 gold. They're already at war with China, and would have to go through Mao to get to us. BUT, is a war worth 23 gold? As much as I want to tell Cleo to stuff it, I pay her off.

And thus ends our GA...oh, boy, I worry about revolts coming.

(9) 840 - MPP with Byzantines can be cancelled, saves us 14 gpt, so it is. We are free to make peace with Japan at any time. I'll have to think about that, once some other things are taken care of. Like killing the Jap cav on the island again -- thanks for leaving the MDI there.

We have enough cavs on hand to raze Toyama.

Even after canceling the deal with Theodora, we're at -16 gpt. We have a 72 gpt deal to Mao set to expire next turn, though. Raising lux tax to 30% to put people back to work moves it to -39 gpt. We have 51 gold, so we can do it, but only for one turn (which is all we need).

Japan won't give Astronomy for peace. Why not? We've razed a whole slew of cities. Hmmm.... I guess we go for Krasnoyarsk and Khabarovsk to get us horses before we let them off the hook. They're still the #1 ranked civ according to F8 and have the most land.

Brest formed up in the old Satsuma/Shimoneski area. Needs a lot of stuff, but I start it on walls first. It needs a cultural expansion to be flipproof, but it doesn't overlap any of Tokyo's core 21.

(10) 850 - Once again, our vet cavalry can't kill a regular defending Jap cavalry in the open by Brest. Sigh. We might need to make peace soon just to keep this city. I figured 4 musketeers and a couple cav would be good, but.....

At least, we raze Krasnoyarsk with the army. Khabarovsk shouldn't be more than a couple turns away. I don't know if Brest can hold.

We're at 20 gold but back in the black at +44 gpt.

Right now, we can give Japan 20 gpt with peace and get Astronomy. I have no idea if it's worth it. Depends on whether Brest can hold -- I give it a 50/50 shot or so. Give me better luck and I'd give it a better chance but my 5 defense with defensive bombard against their 6 attack had no shot. Those horses look nice, but getting a city over in the east will greatly lengthen our front with China, who has to be next, I believe.

BTW, Egypt has insane tech -- infantry, ToE building, Steam Power, at least.

Avignon has our artillery stack. It can be used against whoever we go up against next. Gotta be in the east, though, I believe.

Razes: 2 (coming in) + 5 = 7 - 3 (one city built) = 4...credit for one city plus one extra raze. The army's current location might not be a bad place for that city, to get horses and to be on fresh water...but it would require clearing a marsh first.

I would do the peace with Japan for Astronomy and then see about getting horses from them. And declare on China in the next 3-4 turns, once we get that front reinforced a bit.

Arathorn

 

[LKendter]

The army's current location might not be a bad place for that city, to get horses and to be on fresh water...but it would require clearing a marsh first.

We pretty much have to get a native source of horses, so I agree.

BTW, Egypt has insane tech -- infantry, ToE building, Steam Power, at least.

Are we sure this is only 850 AD?
This is really bad as we need to stop Egypt, but you know how much the AIs suck when it comes to infantry vs. infantry wars. And we are still several techs away from even getting to the IA.


Signed up:
LKendter
Greebley
Meldor (currently playing)
Arathorn (swapped)
Microbe (on deck)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Don't forget the variant rules in the first post.

Leftover raze credit from previous player: 2
New razes from current player: 2 + Satsuma, Shimonoseki, Ise, Toyama, Krasnoyarsk = 7
New raze credit current: 1
Number of new cities to build: 2
Number of new cities built: 1 - Brest
Number of new cities to build: 1

 

[Greebley]

The problem with getting the horses is that we risk losing Brest. Also Egypt looks like it might take the city and we still don't get horses.

Maybe it would be better to make peace and buy horses for 20 more turns (and do the astronomy deal) We can go back to war with Japan after 20 to get horses.

In the mean time we could fight China. Grabbing the Gems should be easy enough and we can relieve the cultural pressure on the rest of our cities.

[Edit: We may also want to build more Cannon in case we need to take on Egypt. Enough Cannon can handle infantry. We could trim their "outlying cities" if need be.