LN1 - "Great works are performed, not by strength, but by perseverance."

[toug]

Haph - thanks, I appreciate it. Swap in the order for good is fine with me - less confusing. As far as builds go - you are right. I was narrow minded in the sense that I wasn't considering chopping. I'm sill of the opinion, however, that a workboat should be the first build. If we scout out or area with the first 10 or so turns that it will take to build a workboat and we see we lack production, then a worker next would make sense so we can chop. However, as you said, I hate chopping pre-math, and if we could secure a nice spot for a production city as our 2nd or 3rd city than we should be able to tech up to BW and whip any production we need with the 2 clam resources to fuel our growth. I really think it will be dependent on our scouting, and as such, I'd prefer to start with a workbout. But you provide a good argument for a worker, so I wouldn't mind either case. At least we both agree that a worker X2 is a bit redundant, and LN seems to agree himself by putting the suggestion in ()s.

LN - would you mind swapping Haphazard and I in the order?

Off to bed, will see how it plays out tomorrow.

 

[Lush Ninja]

A quick question -- what version are we running? BtS with the latest HOF mod? Just the latest BtS? I want to make certain I have the right installation.

I'm running BtS v3.13. If necessary I'll download the update, but for now I'm going to play my turnset.

I agree. Washington is going to have more food than we'll know what to do with for a while, at least until we can start boosting our happy cap.

We'll need Sailing at some point for lighthouses, to get the most out of those clam tiles and for coastal trade. But it should not be urgent -- maybe after Writing? We should also consider Pottery for a granary -- with all this food, the whip will come in handy.

Sailing IMHO is not really that important, 3 clam (4 food w/o lighthouse) tiles round the capital is more than enough, not to mention the rice. Good thinking on pottery though, I didn't even think of that, just that we don't need cottages. This is why I am going to enjoy SGing.

I am assuming Writing early is for libraries and scientist specialists, and the path to CoL and caste system is to really get the SE rolling? I'll definitely be checking out the war academy articles on the SE.

As well, We'll be able to (mostly) ignore the religious techs and trade for them once we get alpha. This is where sailing may come in handy, though a work boat can do the same thing that a galley can.

Maybe a work boat (or even two) before the second worker? That would give us a chance to grow towards the happy cap and get some improved tiles, so the second worker will be built much faster.

You know what, that's an idea. but I think that only one workboat should be built before the worker.

And I think we should definitely find time for a warrior. What are the barb settings? Plus we will want to get our starting guy out exploring a bit.

Barb settings are regular, and that was my plan with the starting guy.

toug, I have time available during the first part of this coming week. We can swap this round or permanently, I have no preference.

Swapped positions.

I think LN is planning for the worker to farm the rice, and then do some chopping and mining. That hill 1S of the settler is especially tasty for a mine plus a free river commerce. I agree that two workers early is more than we'll need.

That was my plan, and now that I think about it, two workers is a bit much.

We are going to need mines, as otherwise we will be VERY hammer-poor in our capital. Chopping will help with settler production, but we may want a few forests for an early wonder. Also, I always hate to chop very much pre-Math.

I see three hills in capital radius, if they're mined asap. we get chops from 2 of them, we just need to decide whether we will go for pyramids or not (dependent on if we find stone near our area). This is the only really useful wonder we can get, it's even worth founding a city near stone to get it (rep is very powerful in a SE)

A couple questions for the team: how do we plan to get culture for our early cities? Mysticism and monuments? Mysticism and Stonehenge? We're not aiming at an early religion, so unless we get some very lucky early spread that is out.

That's what writing is for. The order of the day is probably to chop libraries in our outlying cities. (Good for science as well )

Also, how to handle diplomacy once we start meeting other civs? I understand the guidelines on getting team consensus for major decisions, but how do we respond to those inevitable IBT no-win demands to stop trading with such-and-so? Or demands for tribute, etc.? I think we should plan ahead of time as a team who we should treat well, and who we fear, and who we plan to crush anyway.

Well, my view is that we should plan ahead as well, but that requires knowledge of other civs. I believe that a "triangle diplomacy" strategy is the best for us. Thus we need to find an economically powerful civ, and a "attack dog" civ, then make friends with only them. Other than that, if resource spreads are crap, we may have to crush those civs anyway.

Note: my girlfriend has been gone for about 4 days and she's flying back in tomorrow. I'll probably be wrapped up for the next 2 days or so spending time with her. As I'd prefer not to ask for a skip for my first time is there anyone that would like to switch places with me on the official order? I really don't mind any other spot.

Swapped, take your time man.

Now to the game:

With that said I'd do workboat-workboat-warrior or workboat-warrior-workboat. A granary and lighthouse will be nice to sustain whipping. Our early research should be pretty good because we'll be able to work the water tiles right away. Early scouting will be a priority - number one for stone, because having the pyramids is advantageous for a game highlighting the use of an SE. Secondly, if we have good dotmaps on coasts than Sailing/Metal Casting might be an option for either TGL or The colossus.

I say settle in place and queue up that workboat.

I'll work the water tiles for the commerce ASAP (border pop), that I agree with you on. Research is very important for us, and I'd rather sacrifice the early +1 food of the rice for the +2 commerce of the clams. Other than that I think workboat - worker - workboat will be the best idea.

All in all this is my plan:
Builds: workboat > worker > workboat
Techs: Mining > BW > Wheel > Pottery

Playing my turns now.

 

[Lush Ninja]

Turn 0 - The beautiful city of washington is founded in 4000BC, starts on a workboat. Warrior moves 1E. Research started on mining for chopping (BW comes in turn 26 btw)

Turn 1 - nada.

Turn 2 - So that's what we could have gotten. Pigs are found where the blue circle city site would have gotten them.

Turn 3 - nada

Turn 4 - nada

Turn 5 - Washington pops borders. We find stone NE of capital!!

Turn 6 - nada

Turn 7 - guess.

Turn 8 - Mining finished, start BW, due in 18.

Turn 9 - nada

Turn 10 - Buddhism founded in a distant land. Someone's spiritual. Work boat done, goes to make fishing boats on clams. Start worker.

IT - nasty jaguar attacks our warrior. He survives. I name him "Cougar Clubber"

Turn 11 - nada

Turn 12 - Cougar Clubber pops a hut, netting us hunting! woo!

Turn 13 - nada

Turn 14 - We meet a lion on the way to the second hut S of our capital, I retreat our hurt warrior to a forested hill.

Turn 15 - damn, he lures me off the hill!

IT - Cougar Clubber wins anyway! Promote him to Woodsman I. Hinduism is founded.

Turn 16 - nada

Turn 17 - nada

Turn 18 - nada

Turn 19 - Cougar Clubber pops another hut, netting us archery! WOOO!

Turn 20 - I fortify Cougar Clubber on that hill, until he heals. (4 turns)

BW is done in 1, the worker in 3. The stone is to the NE. So far, we are in great shape. Two techs popped by the rng!

View attachment LN1 T20 BC-3200.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[toug]

Plenty of food, looking great for an SE.

 

[haphazard1]

Fantastic turnset, LN! Two tech pops!

I was wondering about our defenses, and now we have Archery without having to spend a single beaker. If we're really lucky, some copper will appear somewhere useful. We should plan to build another warrior or an archer fairly soon -- barb animals are already out in force, and barb units will appear quickly. We'll need a guard for our capital, with Cougar Clubber to scout and escort our eventual settler.

That stone resource is going to be a HUGE boost for us. Pyramids for sure for our planned SE. And having the option for cheap walls never hurts. And to the south - GOLD! Pre-calendar happy resource, gimme gimme gimme.

I would like to float the idea of going for Stonehenge. As a Charismatic civ, we get an extra +1 happy for a monument, all the way until Astronomy. So we should be planning to grab Mysticism fairly early, and can build cheap monuments for our initial border pop + happy. Or with Stonehenge, we would get all this free for every city, plus some GPP.

It may not matter, since I expect one of the spiritual civs will beat us to it unless we go for it immediately. But we should still plan for Mysticism and monuments, to take advantage of our Charismatic trait.

 

[namliaM]

Builds at washington will probably be worker (x2?) > work boat (x2-3?) > settler with plenty of chopping. Maybe a warrior thrown in.

Uhm, sea food start = workboat first! WHile maxing out hammers = work the forrest hill.

Maybe even add a second workboat while working the clams to size 2 + forrest hill. Just prior to size 3 whip it with overflow to the worker.
Best tiles we will have for a while are those clams imho....

*UGH* To late...
Do you have the starting save to post?? Or did I miss it someplace?

Also, I always hate to chop very much pre-Math.

Me too... lets limit the chopping and max the whipping = food = workboats.

That stone looks in an awfull place, while there are allready 2 good second cities visable...
East of the 'pig lake'
South of the gold or SouthWest of the gold or even North of the Corn all on the coast grabbing food + gold depending on the surrounding land...

Jungle just south, we are going to need some workers my friends.

I guess that makes Toug up?

 

[haphazard1]

I guess that makes Toug up?

Toug asked for a swap, so it appears I am up. But if you feel strongly about the next turnset, I have no objections to a swap. I should have time to play tonight (roughly 10 hours from now). If you can play sooner (and we have agreement from the team on how to proceed), go for it. With LN's approval, of course -- respect the team captain!

Uhm, sea food start = workboat first! WHile maxing out hammers = work the forrest hill.

Maybe even add a second workboat while working the clams to size 2 + forrest hill. Just prior to size 3 whip it with overflow to the worker.
Best tiles we will have for a while are those clams imho....

*UGH* To late...
Do you have the starting save to post?? Or did I miss it someplace?

Me too... lets limit the chopping and max the whipping = food = workboats.

We went workboat first. It's debatable on the second build, but I think the worker will be very useful. I think we skip farming the rice and go directly to a chop on the hill 1S of Washington, followed by a mine. We'll be using the whip plenty, but some actual hammers will be good.

Second workboat should be the next build, with help from the chop we will get it quickly. Roll the overflow into a third workboat? We'll grow fast and will need the improved tiles, and I agree the clams are our best tiles for now.

That stone looks in an awfull place, while there are allready 2 good second cities visable...
East of the 'pig lake'
South of the gold or SouthWest of the gold or even North of the Corn all on the coast grabbing food + gold depending on the surrounding land...

Jungle just south, we are going to need some workers my friends.

I agree the stone site has little to recommend it other than the stone, but we are going to want it anyway for the Pyramids. We can't really dotmap yet, though -- we need to see if copper appears anywhere we can see. If it does, that will likely determine our second city location.

I do like both the other sites you mention, at least in principle.

How long of turnsets are we playing? LN started with 20, and not a lot happens in these early turns. I don't think we'll finish a settler this next turnset, but we will need to get the team's input on where we want to found our second city, with info on copper, etc.

I also worry about Cougar Clubber. Barb units should not go more than 1 tile inside our borders for a while yet, but if we lose him we are without defense. And if a non-scout AI unit should happen by our empty capital, our game could end most ingloriously.

 

[Winth]

Nice turnset.

For the cities, umm... Our capital has nice production, although not very powerful The stone to our east, although worthwhile, is just a bit too desolated to make a good city in the future - not counting any profits from water tiles, of course! Seeing this situation, I think that Colossus may also be a great addition to our empire. Lots of coast there. Our capital is quite suitable for making clean sweep on Stonehenge, Oracle (for Metal Casting snag) and Colossus. Great Lighthouse seems to be too much of a longshot, and I'd consider it only if we are having plenty of room in our starting position - but we are more concerned about Pyramids.

Our capital seems to be a great GP Farm - all the grasslands and seafood, the only thing we lack is fresh water. I think it may be a good idea to move our capital to somewhere else, so we can benefit more from Bureaucracy - this city is, I presume, hemmed somewhere on the west or north of our motherland. All the wonders we are having plans for will give us a pretty head start on those Great People.

Our traits mix up well in growing. The +1 happy face from Charismatic (effectively +2, since we will build Stonehenge) appeals to me as a great tool to manage slavery unhappiness. We can grow more population early, so it appeals to SE - especially when considering the gold nearby .

Nothing else can be said I think, the information about our world is pretty horsehockey (I can rhyme too!)

 

[toug]

Nice turnset.

For the cities, umm... Our capital has nice production, although not very powerful The stone to our east, although worthwhile, is just a bit too desolated to make a good city in the future - not counting any profits from water tiles, of course! Seeing this situation, I think that Colossus may also be a great addition to our empire. Lots of coast there. Our capital is quite suitable for making clean sweep on Stonehenge, Oracle (for Metal Casting snag) and Colossus. Great Lighthouse seems to be too much of a longshot, and I'd consider it only if we are having plenty of room in our starting position - but we are more concerned about Pyramids.

Our capital seems to be a great GP Farm - all the grasslands and seafood, the only thing we lack is fresh water. I think it may be a good idea to move our capital to somewhere else, so we can benefit more from Bureaucracy - this city is, I presume, hemmed somewhere on the west or north of our motherland. All the wonders we are having plans for will give us a pretty head start on those Great People.

Our traits mix up well in growing. The +1 happy face from Charismatic (effectively +2, since we will build Stonehenge) appeals to me as a great tool to manage slavery unhappiness. We can grow more population early, so it appeals to SE - especially when considering the gold nearby .

Nothing else can be said I think, the information about our world is pretty horsehockey (I can rhyme too!)

Since it's an SE we won't be needing to worry about bureaucracy much. The effects of moving the capital would be marginal.

I think the build should be(after the worker) warrior(or archer) -> workboat. We need to scout the land so we can plan on how we are going to get access to that stone (I'd like it early as I'm fond of the idea of going for stonehenge).

I'm of the opinion that based on scouting our GP farm will be located SW of the capital. There is plenty of food there. At our capital, the rice isn't irrigated so pre-biology that will only be +4F and the clams will only be +4 as well (with a lighthouse). +12F is nothing to shake a stick at but I think we can do better.

I'd suggest scouting so we know how to maximize acquiring the stone, building up our capital and trying for stonehenge.

 

[ChrisFromLux]

Nice going so far ...

As for city locations, I think it's still a bit early to decide that yet. We have enough land to explore yet. For the moment, it looks like the spot N of the corn could be the best city-spot, getting the corn, the pigs and the gold. And it could even borrow the southern clams from Washington, if it hits the happiness cap.

This way, another city could grab the Banana and the Cows.

And I think it's too early to say the stone-area looks awful ... of course, there are 2 deserts, a peak and a desert-hill, but this also depends on the land east of it ...
Beside that, we all seem to agree the Stone would be interesting for the Pyramids, the most important Wonder for our strategy, IMHO.

Our capital seems to be a great GP Farm - all the grasslands and seafood, the only thing we lack is fresh water.

Ahem, in my save, Washington has fresh water

 

[haphazard1]

For the cities, umm... Our capital has nice production, although not very powerful

We do have fresh water in the capital. There is a tiny (one tile length) river between the capital and that hill 1S where we want our first mine. Three hills total is not a lot of production, but it is enough to handle early infra and some units. Workers and settlers will be no problem with the food.

You may be right about moving the capital long term, but that will depend a lot on our landmass -- how big it is and what shape. We'll not know for some time yet, though.

The stone to our east, although worthwhile, is just a bit too desolated to make a good city in the future - not counting any profits from water tiles, of course! Seeing this situation, I think that Colossus may also be a great addition to our empire. Lots of coast there. Our capital is quite suitable for making clean sweep on Stonehenge, Oracle (for Metal Casting snag) and Colossus. Great Lighthouse seems to be too much of a longshot, and I'd consider it only if we are having plenty of room in our starting position - but we are more concerned about Pyramids.

I like the idea of all of these wonders, but I don't think it is practical for us to get all of them. We would end up doing nothing else, and we have some good land to claim. If we want the Pyramids for our SE, then we need the stone, however poor that site may be. If we want Stonehenge, then we need to go for Mysticism and get started very quickly to beat the spiritual Monarch AIs (of which there is at least one, apparently). An Oracle -> Metal Casting gambit for the Colossus could work well, too, especially with gold (more happiness from all the forges).

I think we will need to prioritize. Depending on copper, maybe we can make our second city a hammer haven, and build wonders (and a few units) there while the capital handles workers, settlers, and early commerce?

 

[namliaM]

Toug asked for a swap, so it appears I am up. But if you feel strongly about the next turnset, I have no objections to a swap. I should have time to play tonight (roughly 10 hours from now). If you can play sooner (and we have agreement from the team on how to proceed), go for it. With LN's approval, of course -- respect the team captain!

OK, no probs... And I am up for SGOTM, so if / when I have time it will be that!

We went workboat first. It's debatable on the second build, but I think the worker will be very useful.

A worker is allways usefull... just a matter of what is better.
We currently have 10 food stored (from building the workboat in 10 turns) with +4 food. 3 turns (3 hammers) to grow to size 2.
24 food required to size 3, working the Clam and Forrest hill +3 food for 8 turns. Do this 7 turns (just before growing) 7 * 3 hammers = 21 + 3 (from size one) = 24. Whip for 1 pop and grow back to size 2 next turn.

Now Start the worker with +2 more food and +2 more commerce and having allready 21 + 2 = 23 hammers in. 60 - 23 = 37 / 7 = 6 more turns worker done.
So by turn 10 (Workboat #1) + 7 (workboat #2) + 6 (worker) = 23 we would have: 2 workboats + Worker + Size 2 Washington.
Whereas in 4 turns from now we can have:
2 Workboats (whip it asap for 1 pop) + Worker + Size 1 Washington

Not only is the workboat a turn late and Washington one pop lower. Also we lost out on 12 commerce, not much but it counts...

I think we skip farming the rice and go directly to a chop on the hill 1S of Washington, followed by a mine. We'll be using the whip plenty, but some actual hammers will be good.

I would start by mining the plains hill, it is the only unforrested tile around => Copper/Iron??
Plus we get the mine faster... Plus I am allways "stressed" by the Math thing.

Second workboat should be the next build, with help from the chop we will get it quickly. Roll the overflow into a third workboat? We'll grow fast and will need the improved tiles, and I agree the clams are our best tiles for now.

If we take a third workboat.... we can skip farming the rice for a while if we need to... I think I would rather get 1 or 2 warriors out exploring and one for MP in New York (aka Settler escort) ...

I agree the stone site has little to recommend it other than the stone, but we are going to want it anyway for the Pyramids. We can't really dotmap yet, though -- we need to see if copper appears anywhere we can see. If it does, that will likely determine our second city location.

How long of turnsets are we playing? LN started with 20, and not a lot happens in these early turns. I don't think we'll finish a settler this next turnset, but we will need to get the team's input on where we want to found our second city, with info on copper, etc.

I believe he said 10 for the next sets...

I also worry about Cougar Clubber. Barb units should not go more than 1 tile inside our borders for a while yet, but if we lose him we are without defense. And if a non-scout AI unit should happen by our empty capital, our game could end most ingloriously.

Scouts cannot attack?
But you probably mean a scouting warrior... I have never ever seen an AI warrior attack an undefended capitol in the first turns.... And I (allmost) NEVER have an MP untill I settle my second city.

I think that Colossus may also be a great addition to our empire.

Colossus... not so great I think... We want food right? Food = farms not coastal tiles... Food and specialists right??

Our capital is quite suitable for making clean sweep on Stonehenge, Oracle (for Metal Casting snag) and Colossus. Great Lighthouse seems to be too much of a longshot, and I'd consider it only if we are having plenty of room in our starting position - but we are more concerned about Pyramids.

Wow talk about your basic wonder builder Pyramids tho nice are supposed to be a boon for an SE... not a must have.
Colossus like I said.... not a real thing... for me anyway. Oracle maybe... Great Library definatly one way or another

Beside that, we all seem to agree the Stone would be interesting for the Pyramids, the most important Wonder for our strategy, IMHO.

I think the great lib is more important like I said the stuff I read about SE is that Pyramids is optional. More GS via TGL is not....
Offcourse anything and everything is optional...

Wouldnt we rather build settlers than the Pyramids without stone? Pyramids without stone = 5 settlers.

 

[Winth]

As for the fresh water - I do know that there is, but that tiny river won't supply us with much food until we get Civil Service so we can spread that plague... I mean, irrigation... to our capital.

Colossus... not so great I think... We want food right? Food = farms not coastal tiles... Food and specialists right??

The city we are going to secure stone with, as I see it, doesn't have much food - there are mainly plains and water tiles. These water tiles can actually turn out to be a nice commerce pumper (harbors FTW!) - although in SE, commerce isn't that useful, it can squeeze us some extra cash. The so called fishing villages, given a proper utilization, can fuel us a bit with additional beakers or cash to tick our sliders a bit more.

Wow talk about your basic wonder builder

namiliaM! Beink nice! Do you think that I am some sort of a grumpy, obsolete (sorry for the pun ) peacemonger?
The point is, Philosophical can nicely fit with the theme of the wonder building. You won't build them faster, but you will get more benefits. Given that GP are one of our strengths, we should think about pumping them fast. I certainly won't go wonderhappy if we happen to get some very close neighbor.

Since it's an SE we won't be needing to worry about bureaucracy much. The effects of moving the capital would be marginal.

We could possibly make a little exception for one city - getting a lot of commerce or hammers in it and switching it to becoming the capital.

 

[haphazard1]

OK, no probs... And I am up for SGOTM, so if / when I have time it will be that!

OK, then I will plan to play later tonight -- assuming we can get agreement on what to do.

I agree with your figures on the second workboat -- we should have gone with that rather than the worker. But now that we're almost done with the worker, what next? You and toug have both emphasized getting units out to explore, but do we want the second workboat first? Even with a one-pop whip, it will be a while before we get a warrior/archer out. Would a scout do any good at this point (we did get Hunting), or will it just get killed by barbs?

I would start by mining the plains hill, it is the only unforrested tile around => Copper/Iron??
Plus we get the mine faster... Plus I am allways "stressed" by the Math thing.

We have four resources at the capital -- I think it is unlikely we will get lucky enough to have copper or iron (or horses) as well. But I will mine the plains hill first, then chop and mine the hill by the river. The chop will not complete until the following turnset, so we can decide what to put it into.

I believe he said 10 for the next sets...

10 turns it is. I should be able to get the worker done, grow to size 2 and whip the second workboat. Not much more, I think. What should I do with the overflow -- warrior probably to start exploring/future New York settler escort duty? Or do we want to go right to an archer?

Scouts cannot attack?
But you probably mean a scouting warrior... I have never ever seen an AI warrior attack an undefended capitol in the first turns.... And I (allmost) NEVER have an MP untill I settle my second city.

Yes, I did say "non-scout" AI unit. I need to adjust my thinking -- my last two games were Always War.

I know there is a "grace period" when the AI will not attack, but how long is it? The barbs will hold off until the average number of cities per civ hits a
threshold (1.5, 2, don't remember).

On Wonders, I think we have to pick and choose where we want to put our efforts. With settlers, workers, and units to build we are not going to be able to build more than one or two of the early wonders. If we want the Pyramids, I think we have to have stone.

OK, to summarize my turnset plan for discussion:

Finish BW and hope for copper. Swap civics to slavery AFTER the worker finishes.
Complete the worker, start second workboat.
Whip the workboat as soon as we hit size 2, putting overflow into a warrior.
Once Cougar Clubber is healed, resume exploration. (Which direction?)

Open issue -- tech path after BW. Wheel then Pottery (roads, and granaries for more effective whipping)? Mysticism for a monument in future New York? (OK, can probably do this later.) Iron Working if we don't see any copper?

Comments, suggestions, general heckling from the peanut gallery?

 

[haphazard1]

OK, finally got home from work, and was able to load the game file. Odd, though -- I got a warning that I needed to load the mod "NONE" and the app would have to restart. I had started by double-clicking the game file. I then got a warning popup about missing some txt menu something something. Ideas, anyone?

Anyway, it did then load...although I appear to have two BtS instances running now. Weird.

Since LN left us with one turn to BW, I checked things over (not much to actually do) and hit enter.

We have copper at the capital!

There is also copper to the east, across the river. Somewhere along the river, grabbing the wine (and maybe the pigs?) could make a strong city site. Note that Cougar Clubber is soon to see more action. I'll shift him into the forest for better tile defense and his woodsman bonus.

I wanted to get this up for the team to start thinking over. The rest of my turnset seems pretty obvious:

Finish the worker
Then switch to Slavery civic
Start worker mining the copper
Work on the Wheel to get copper hooked up
Grow the capital to size 2 while starting on a second workboat
Whip the workboat ASAP
Put the overflow into a second warrior for more exploration, future escort duty

I'll play the rest of my turnset in an hour or two (must have food!), but will check back first. Any ideas or suggested changes to the above, chime in now.

I foresee some in the future. Early copper, yes!

 

[Lush Ninja]

I was wondering about our defenses, and now we have Archery without having to spend a single beaker. If we're really lucky, some copper will appear somewhere useful. We should plan to build another warrior or an archer fairly soon -- barb animals are already out in force, and barb units will appear quickly. We'll need a guard for our capital, with Cougar Clubber to scout and escort our eventual settler.

Archer after 3rd workboat, I would think. It would be better if we got those resources up and running first for whipping.

That stone resource is going to be a HUGE boost for us. Pyramids for sure for our planned SE. And having the option for cheap walls never hurts. And to the south - GOLD! Pre-calendar happy resource, gimme gimme gimme.

I think gold city should come after stone city. there could be some other resource up there anyway, and that's probably the likeliest direction of AI expansion, vs south in the jungle.

I would like to float the idea of going for Stonehenge. As a Charismatic civ, we get an extra +1 happy for a monument, all the way until Astronomy. So we should be planning to grab Mysticism fairly early, and can build cheap monuments for our initial border pop + happy. Or with Stonehenge, we would get all this free for every city, plus some GPP.

Now this is an idea. +1 would be crucial in our SE. The added culture would be cheaper than libraries en masse as well.

It may not matter, since I expect one of the spiritual civs will beat us to it unless we go for it immediately. But we should still plan for Mysticism and monuments, to take advantage of our Charismatic trait.

If we hook stone up and save chopping forests till mysticism is researched, we can snag it, I'm pretty certain.

Uhm, sea food start = workboat first! WHile maxing out hammers = work the forrest hill.

Maybe even add a second workboat while working the clams to size 2 + forrest hill. Just prior to size 3 whip it with overflow to the worker.
Best tiles we will have for a while are those clams imho....

*UGH* To late...
Do you have the starting save to post?? Or did I miss it someplace?

I have it but didn't post it, do you want it?

Nice turnset.

For the cities, umm... Our capital has nice production, although not very powerful The stone to our east, although worthwhile, is just a bit too desolated to make a good city in the future - not counting any profits from water tiles, of course! Seeing this situation, I think that Colossus may also be a great addition to our empire. Lots of coast there. Our capital is quite suitable for making clean sweep on Stonehenge, Oracle (for Metal Casting snag) and Colossus. Great Lighthouse seems to be too much of a longshot, and I'd consider it only if we are having plenty of room in our starting position - but we are more concerned about Pyramids.

Break out the bricks, we have a builder!

Since it's an SE we won't be needing to worry about bureaucracy much. The effects of moving the capital would be marginal.

I think the build should be(after the worker) warrior(or archer) -> workboat. We need to scout the land so we can plan on how we are going to get access to that stone (I'd like it early as I'm fond of the idea of going for stonehenge).

I'm thinking workboat > archer instead. But, I already did a move, so take my words with a grain of salt.

I'm of the opinion that based on scouting our GP farm will be located SW of the capital. There is plenty of food there. At our capital, the rice isn't irrigated so pre-biology that will only be +4F and the clams will only be +4 as well (with a lighthouse). +12F is nothing to shake a stick at but I think we can do better.

Keep in mind that lighthouse clams are +5F, civil service rice is +5F.

I'd suggest scouting so we know how to maximize acquiring the stone, building up our capital and trying for stonehenge.

Agreed. Lets send the warrior to the stone, unless anyone else has a better idea.

OK, no probs... And I am up for SGOTM, so if / when I have time it will be that!


A worker is allways usefull... just a matter of what is better.
We currently have 10 food stored (from building the workboat in 10 turns) with +4 food. 3 turns (3 hammers) to grow to size 2.
24 food required to size 3, working the Clam and Forrest hill +3 food for 8 turns. Do this 7 turns (just before growing) 7 * 3 hammers = 21 + 3 (from size one) = 24. Whip for 1 pop and grow back to size 2 next turn.

Now Start the worker with +2 more food and +2 more commerce and having allready 21 + 2 = 23 hammers in. 60 - 23 = 37 / 7 = 6 more turns worker done.
So by turn 10 (Workboat #1) + 7 (workboat #2) + 6 (worker) = 23 we would have: 2 workboats + Worker + Size 2 Washington.
Whereas in 4 turns from now we can have:
2 Workboats (whip it asap for 1 pop) + Worker + Size 1 Washington

Not only is the workboat a turn late and Washington one pop lower. Also we lost out on 12 commerce, not much but it counts...

Well, that was a move.

I would start by mining the plains hill, it is the only unforrested tile around => Copper/Iron??
Plus we get the mine faster... Plus I am allways "stressed" by the Math thing.

Good thinking. 4h is nothing to shake a stick at. Copper would be just ridiculous though. Math is definately one of our priorities. (but we have so many )

Wow talk about your basic wonder builder Pyramids tho nice are supposed to be a boon for an SE... not a must have.
Colossus like I said.... not a real thing... for me anyway. Oracle maybe... Great Library definatly one way or another

I think the great lib is more important like I said the stuff I read about SE is that Pyramids is optional. More GS via TGL is not....
Offcourse anything and everything is optional...

Wouldnt we rather build settlers than the Pyramids without stone? Pyramids without stone = 5 settlers.

Well, we have a good chance with TGL, as not too many AIs go aesthetics. mids and henge are another question. mids we may be able to leave for a while (not too long of course). Henge, if we want it, we must go for ASAP. The other wonders, not so much, as we really just want to focus on the ones that can really, really help in a SE.

As for the fresh water - I do know that there is, but that tiny river won't supply us with much food until we get Civil Service so we can spread that plague... I mean, irrigation... to our capital.

Well that won't take too, too long.

10 turns it is. I should be able to get the worker done, grow to size 2 and whip the second workboat. Not much more, I think. What should I do with the overflow -- warrior probably to start exploring/future New York settler escort duty? Or do we want to go right to an archer?

Id say an archer. but thats just me.

I know there is a "grace period" when the AI will not attack, but how long is it? The barbs will hold off until the average number of cities per civ hits a
threshold (1.5, 2, don't remember).

I thought it was ~2000BC.

On Wonders, I think we have to pick and choose where we want to put our efforts. With settlers, workers, and units to build we are not going to be able to build more than one or two of the early wonders. If we want the Pyramids, I think we have to have stone.

Preferences: 1)mids 2) henge. anything else is not really THAT useful to us. other than TGL, but that we should worry less about.

OK, to summarize my turnset plan for discussion:

Finish BW and hope for copper. Swap civics to slavery AFTER the worker finishes.
Complete the worker, start second workboat.
Whip the workboat as soon as we hit size 2, putting overflow into a warrior.
Once Cougar Clubber is healed, resume exploration. (Which direction?)

Open issue -- tech path after BW. Wheel then Pottery (roads, and granaries for more effective whipping)? Mysticism for a monument in future New York? (OK, can probably do this later.) Iron Working if we don't see any copper?

Comments, suggestions, general heckling from the peanut gallery?

All good, but I think an archer instead of a warrior. Wheel then pottery sounds good, I say Masonry then Mysticism though. Henge would come much faster that way, plus we can also go after mids as well. Again, any better ideas, come forward, because I'm still just a prince player.

As for CC, make him go across jungle to east. This way he may face another animal and get woods II. Then send him north to the stone site (unless we get another scout).

About the save . Does the fact that I have a no-cd patch affect it? I had to install the game from an iso that I made from the disc, due to the fact that I don't have a DVD drive.

 

[haphazard1]

OK, turnset completed. We've met our first AI, and completed the Wheel.

The summary:

T21 - as in my previous post -- completed BW and found copper at our capital!

T22 - snooze

IBT - we meet a man with a very large hat

His archer appeared to our northeast, so Joao (oaoaoaoaoa) is probably off to our east or northeast. We will definitely need to claim that stone soonest.

T23 - Worker completes, start work boat. We revolt to Slavery (1 turn anarchy). Worker heads for copper hill to start a mine.

T24 - Cougar Clubber is healthy again (the lion wandered off somewhere). I decided to send him west and south, then loop east through the jungle. CC is our woodsman, so spending ~10 turns sending him across already known territory to the stone seemed wasteful. Our next warrior can get there not much later, while CC (hopefully as a Woodsman II) explores the south and southeast. Also, I fog-gazed water southwest of the gold, and wanted to know our options in the area.

Throw rotten fruits and veggies for this decision if you feel the need.

T25 - Worker begins copper mine

T26 - CC exploring, we have an isthmus west of the gold -- could be a good canal city site and chokepoint.

T27 - Washington grows to size 2. Given the copper, I decide NOT to whip. Second city dweller works grassland forest one turn, and will then switch to the about-to-finish copper mine.

My reasoning: An immediate one-pop whip for the workboat would get us a third improved tile (2 clams plus the copper mine) with only 1 pop to work them. Six turns later, we would be pop 2 again, with 6 hammers + the overflow (8 hammers) into a warrior. So at turn 33 we would have Washington at pop 2 (plus 2 food stored), two improved clam tiles, and a warrior 1 turn from complete.

By working the copper starting turn 28, we get the workboat on turn 31 (7 already invested + 2 on turn 27 + 3 turns at 7 hpt), a warrior on turn 34 (with a swap to working two clams that last turn), and pop 2 plus 20 food stored. Net gain: 18 stored food (most of what we need to grow to size 3).

T28 - Swap second city dweller to copper. CC explores coastline south, and

Better hope that woodman promo pays off...

IBT - Cougar Clubber kills the panther (1.1%) but takes significant damage (56/100 HP). The lion attacks....

Victory! Sure, he's barely alive, but a quick Woodsman II promo boosts him to 1.1. He'll be healing for the next 5 turns, but will then be double-moving through the jungle.

T29 - Worker can't really do anything this turn. We need to road the copper, and it seems better to road the copper first then the 1S hill. That way our worker will be better positioned for his next tasks. So he does nothing this turn.

T30 - The Wheel is completed, and our worker starts roading the copper. I set research to Pottery as was discussed (7 turns), but we can still switch if desired as long as it is before the next "hit enter".


After the workboat completes next turn, I think we should build a warrior and send him towards the stone. We need to know if there are any other resources there, and hopefully find Portugal quickly as well. Joao is imperialistic, so he gets cheap settlers -- we need to claim that stone (and maybe the other copper?) soon. The archer we saw went south along Washington's eastern border, then vanished into the fog.

Despite the need for speed, I think we need to build a third workboat and another unit (archer or even axe) before we build a settler. At size 4 (with a third workboat), we will have 3 clams + copper for 6 surplus food + 7 hammers per turn => 8 turn settlers. We could build the settler at size 3 (4 surplus food + 7 hammers per turn => just over 9 turn settlers), but size 4 gives us two extra commerce each turn as well.

Hmmm, maybe we should build the settler at size 3, then grow the capital further. We'll have an escort available since we won't need the third work boat right away.

Anyway, we can discuss. NamliaM -- tag, you're it!

View attachment LN1 BC-2800.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[haphazard1]

Break out the bricks, we have a builder!

Hey hey, no bad-mouthing the builders. I have strong builder tendencies myself. And while many wonders are only semi-useful to our planned SE, wonders denied to an enemy are always a good thing.

Of course, this "builder" is looking at that early copper and an AI who has been terribly annoying in every game I've encountered him. Early axe rush, anyone?

About the save . Does the fact that I have a no-cd patch affect it? I had to install the game from an iso that I made from the disc, due to the fact that I don't have a DVD drive.

I have no idea. I suppose it could be. I was able to load and run the save, though, so it doesn't seem too important. Let's see if anyone else sees the same odd behaviors.

 

[namliaM]

@Lush Ninja: Yes starting save please....that way Someone can replay if they like.

2 archers = 3 warriors. Warriors should do for now shouldnt they?
Plus with 3 warriors we can use 2 to explore while having 1 at home. 2 Archers we only have 1 (tho stronger) scout.

Agreed. Lets send the warrior to the stone, unless anyone else has a better idea.

I would send our southern warrior tho, but send a new warrior/unit there instead...

I know there is a "grace period" when the AI will not attack, but how long is it? The barbs will hold off until the average number of cities per civ hits a
threshold (1.5, 2, don't remember).

IIRC 2 cities per civ, maybe 2 per civ - 1. I would have to look it up ...

Wheel then pottery sounds good, I say Masonry then Mysticism
though

Hmz, why pottery? For a Granary which we dont need? With + 10 food available at the capitol at size 4 I really dont see the need.
I would much rather research AH, so we can get at the Pigs and Cows.
Also Masonry => Mysticism is a BAD idea. This will cost us about 20 beakers, beelining a tech to only research a pre-req tech right after is generaly a bad idea...

As for mining that grass forrest hill. That would turn into a 1/3/1 tile, for most things we are going to be producing we need food (or can use food). I suggest mining it to 1 turn from completion (that means 2 turns in the civ screen!) then road to the hill on the otherside and do the same. That way we can chop/mine them anytime we like.

T24 - Cougar Clubber is healthy again (the lion wandered off somewhere). I decided to send him west and south, then loop east through the jungle. CC is our woodsman, so spending ~10 turns sending him across already known territory to the stone seemed wasteful. Our next warrior can get there not much later, while CC (hopefully as a Woodsman II) explores the south and southeast. Also, I fog-gazed water southwest of the gold, and wanted to know our options in the area.

Throw rotten fruits and veggies for this decision if you feel the need.

You have my blessing, for what it means ...

T27 - Washington grows to size 2. Given the copper, I decide NOT to whip.

Good thinking
My train of thought was to compare 2 workboat - Worker to Workboat - Worker - Workboat, not particularly optimized for what happened.

T29 - Worker can't really do anything this turn. We need to road the copper, and it seems better to road the copper first then the 1S hill. That way our worker will be better positioned for his next tasks. So he does nothing this turn.

Now in the 2 workboat scenario this wouldnt have happened and we would have been glad to get those extra 12 beakers (1 full turn atm)

After the workboat completes next turn, I think we should build a warrior and send him towards the stone. We need to know if there are any other resources there, and hopefully find Portugal quickly as well. Joao is imperialistic, so he gets cheap settlers -- we need to claim that stone (and maybe the other copper?) soon. The archer we saw went south along Washington's eastern border, then vanished into the fog.

Despite the need for speed, I think we need to build a third workboat and another unit (archer or even axe) before we build a settler. At size 4 (with a third workboat), we will have 3 clams + copper for 6 surplus food + 7 hammers per turn => 8 turn settlers. We could build the settler at size 3 (4 surplus food + 7 hammers per turn => just over 9 turn settlers), but size 4 gives us two extra commerce each turn as well.

Hmmm, maybe we should build the settler at size 3, then grow the capital further. We'll have an escort available since we won't need the third work boat right away.

At +8 food at size 3 (3 workboats/ 2 workboats + Farmed Rice) growing to 4 doesnt take long and allows for a 2 pop whip to finish the settler faster.

I also wouldnt quite hook up the Copper yet unless we plan a real axerush...
Get a couple of warriors out first before they go out of style.

My Plans:
Worker
Finish the road on the Copper
Farm the rice
Road and pre-mine the NORTHERN hill
Pre-mine the Southern hill

City build
Workboat
1 turn (Switch to the Clam, +4 food/2 turns due to the 2 turn move)
Warrior 7h from the workboat move. Start at 12 food, and +6 food => 2 turns to grow + 2 hammers. Work the Plains hill for another 7 hammers = warrior finished 1 workboat + 4 = Turn 5. +4 food (need 26 to grow to 4)
Warrior
With 1 hammer overflow from previous warrior, 2 turns working the plains hill. at +4 food. Making total 12 food stored, turn 7.
Workboat
5 turns at 7 hammers/turn (into the next turnset) with 5 hammers to spare.
At +4 food 12 => 26 = 4 turns. But if we work a forrest one turn we gain a turn in growing, while losing 5 hammers.
Dont know if the 5 hammers is worth the extra turn on pop, eventually growing a turn faster = every time we grow a turn faster.

At size 4, which we now are start a settler, whip it for 2. Grow back working food and start a worker.

 

[haphazard1]

@Lush Ninja: Yes starting save please....that way Someone can replay if they like.

Yes, please post the starting save. It could be interesting for a future replay.

2 archers = 3 warriors. Warriors should do for now shouldnt they?
Plus with 3 warriors we can use 2 to explore while having 1 at home. 2 Archers we only have 1 (tho stronger) scout.

I think for now we want numbers over quality, to get more exploration. But we probably want an archer for settler escort duty, once we reach that point. A bear or two barbs at once is always a risk.

I would send our southern warrior tho, but send a new warrior/unit there instead...

If Cougar Clubber had been to the east I would have sent him, but with healing time and the distance he wouldn't have reached the stone by the end of my turn set. Seemed better to use him in the jungle as a woodsman. He almost ended up dead, and is spending more time healing than exploring, though.

Hmz, why pottery? For a Granary which we dont need? With + 10 food available at the capitol at size 4 I really dont see the need.
I would much rather research AH, so we can get at the Pigs and Cows.

We do need AH eventually, but if we truly intend to go for stone city first it can wait. It would reveal horses -- those open grasslands and plains to the east might have a horse tile if we're lucky.

I think a granary will be worthwhile, even with all the food we have at Washington. If we plan to whip a fair bit (and as Charismatic we have a bit more happy cap for it), the granary will pay for itself fairly quickly. Stone city could certainly use a granary as well, given its (probable) lack of food.

Pottery also opens one path to Writing.

Also Masonry => Mysticism is a BAD idea. This will cost us about 20 beakers, beelining a tech to only research a pre-req tech right after is generaly a bad idea...

Agree. We want Mysticism anyway for our Charismatic monuments, and we can hold off Masonry until our settler is headed for the stone. No need to research them out of order.

As for mining that grass forrest hill. That would turn into a 1/3/1 tile, for most things we are going to be producing we need food (or can use food). I suggest mining it to 1 turn from completion (that means 2 turns in the civ screen!) then road to the hill on the otherside and do the same. That way we can chop/mine them anytime we like.

I was thinking we might want the mines before we reach Math, but with the copper plains hill for hammers we can probably wait, and get full value for the chops. Especially if we go for the Pyramids, we will need every hammer. And grabbing them after the stone is connected is much better.

Speaking of connecting stone, we need to find time to research Sailing for coastal trade connections. Or else build a bunch of road. (Which we will want eventually, but for now we have better things for our worker(s) to do.)

Now in the 2 workboat scenario this wouldnt have happened and we would have been glad to get those extra 12 beakers (1 full turn atm)

I tried to find a productive use for that turn, but nothing presented itself. Moving off the hill would have lost a turn moving back onto it. Probably what I should have done was calculate the time better, and that first turn after the worker was built move onto the rice and put one turn into a farm. Then the mine would have finished just as the Wheel completed.

I'm more used to Epic speed, and expected the mining to take longer. I'll do better next time.

I also wouldnt quite hook up the Copper yet unless we plan a real axerush...
Get a couple of warriors out first before they go out of style.

We can leave the road incomplete on the hill 1S of Washington, although it will cost us a worker turn later moving back onto the hill. I don't know how many warriors we want to build before switching to stronger units. A couple for exploration definitely, but with jungle to the south we will be seeing a fair number of barb units all too soon. Archers and axes will be needed to keep our copper mine intact.

My Plans:

Looks good to me. I assume the first warrior built will set out for stone, to see if there is a decent city site to the east of it? The water to the south is coast, so the stone is either on a peninsula or an isthmus. If it is the latter, then Portugal is likely on the other end of it.

If there is no food source near the stone, we could settle on it for the hammer bonus in the city center. At least we would get some bonus from it, without having to stagnate to work it. The city would be a fishing village, very slow growing, but it would have some value. Especially if it did bottleneck the Portugese.

Good luck!