(LOCKED) Going for Gold: Wonders
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pineappledan
Deity
I like the jinete promotion in concept, I just don’t think its specific bonuses are doing the trick.
I think drill is comparable in power to what we want, but the problem was it was a stem promotion that locked your melee units into that specific progression and felt like it was limiting your options, rather than giving you more. making the wonder more specific to mounted melee is fine, but it also means the promotion needs to be more powerful than drill I because it is locked to strategics and less flexible (poor Zulu...)
Jinete
Mounted melee only
+10% CS
+25% vs cities and fortified units
10 damage to adjacent units on kills
so it would be an anti-infantry promotion like that, give the same all-around CS as drill, and then stack with Overrun to give a potential 25 damage on adjacent kills. Sweden can already do a similar thing with the Carolean’s grenadier promotion. Also it would mitigate the cavalry line’s city malus. Naming the promotion after the people who conquered Alhambra instead of the people who built it makes me think that there should be some bonus vs cities in there. Though I understand if the overlap with statue of Zeus isn’t welcome
I think drill is comparable in power to what we want, but the problem was it was a stem promotion that locked your melee units into that specific progression and felt like it was limiting your options, rather than giving you more. making the wonder more specific to mounted melee is fine, but it also means the promotion needs to be more powerful than drill I because it is locked to strategics and less flexible (poor Zulu...)
Jinete
Mounted melee only
+10% CS
+25% vs cities and fortified units
10 damage to adjacent units on kills
so it would be an anti-infantry promotion like that, give the same all-around CS as drill, and then stack with Overrun to give a potential 25 damage on adjacent kills. Sweden can already do a similar thing with the Carolean’s grenadier promotion. Also it would mitigate the cavalry line’s city malus. Naming the promotion after the people who conquered Alhambra instead of the people who built it makes me think that there should be some bonus vs cities in there. Though I understand if the overlap with statue of Zeus isn’t welcome
civplayer33
King
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- Sep 11, 2017
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- 965
Looks good to me! I want to stress again, however, that it should not be lost on upgrade, because otherwise you'll have an era where you push out those new mounted units after building Alhambra (typically Medieval) and then in Renaissance with the upgrades you just lose all those promotions and since you don't want to throw away promoted, combat-tested units you will only build rather few additional mounted so Jinete will be rarely seen anymore if it is lost on upgrade...we could simply reduce the numbers you gave slightly, if necessary, to prevent making it OP (I don't think it is, though, personally).
phantomaxl1207
King
Does it bother anyone else that the Ideology Wonders (Statue of Liberty, the Motherland Calls, and Prora) unlock before the Industrial Era Policy Wonders (Broadway, Bletchley Park, and the Pentagon)?
Not really, it just gives science focus a chance at those wonders compared to the cultural players, and it dilutes the finisher so that you don't get SUCH a big bump when you finish the tree.
saamohod
Deity
Terracotta Army should be nerfed imo. https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/wonder-review.657172/#post-15801052
Earning 120 culture for killing a barbarian brute seems a bit too much in 1600-something year.
Earning 120 culture for killing a barbarian brute seems a bit too much in 1600-something year.
Do people build Alhambra? If so, how many knights do you have? The promotion is quite strong but I'm finding myself without that many horses, and not using all my horses on knights. It's a lot of production to buff not that many units. I find myself just building more military instead.
also bump to nerfing Terracotta.
also bump to nerfing Terracotta.
pineappledan
Deity
The big problem with Alhambra is that Jinete isn't Global.
It should be global; The requirement to funnel all my horses through a single city is lame.
It should be global; The requirement to funnel all my horses through a single city is lame.
Most of the time, I don't have the opportunity to build Alhambra. I did last game and I was underwhelmed. Jinete isn't that strong and as @pineappledan points out, I'd have to funnel my units through that city, for an upgrade that doesn't even carry over all game.
I'd rather have the old Alhambra, as a free Drill I enables Drill III + Stalwarts units with military academies.
ElliotS
Warmonger
Why was Alhambra changed? I loved the old version.
It now gives a promotion only to mounted melee. The promotion is similar to zulu's spear throw.
No, I think that promo was too strong, I think this one just gives an attack bonus and a chance of withdrawal.
It got changed because people thought drill was constraining, not fun?
Right now, it's the weakest policy finisher wonder.
I didn't know it got changed. The old promotion was very strong but I still skipped building it often.
I think the argument was that you always went for drill units not shock units. Also its retroactive so you shouldn't ever take drill on the early units. But IDK how accurate those arguments are. I'd rather just have extra XP than the current bonus, and I think it should be too all melee or even all units.
ElliotS
Warmonger
I've never liked those arguments. If you don't wanna promote any drill units until medieval to try and get a free promotion out of it you're playing badly.
When this was changed I remember wondering what you would say about it. I somewhat agree, drill is most useful in the early game, and I had several games with old Alhambra where I went for shock and march anyways.
I think another argument was AI friendliness, but the current version is useless without horses and I don't think the AI has logic for that.
If free drill was too strong, it could just give extra XP to new units (all melee units). That's AI friendly and keeps promotion flexibility.
It could keep the chance to withdraw to melee horses if people like that (I personally don't, but maybe you can use it well with practice). Either way I agree that aspect should be global.
ElliotS
Warmonger
I've always hated chance to withdraw. One of my least favorite abilities, even if it can be useful sometimes.
If we don't want to go back to the old one let's just give all melee units a promotion "Enduring Homestead: +10% CS, +10 HP". That's a versatile promotion that is more AI friendly than this one and also doesn't suck as a human.
If we don't want to go back to the old one let's just give all melee units a promotion "Enduring Homestead: +10% CS, +10 HP". That's a versatile promotion that is more AI friendly than this one and also doesn't suck as a human.
So I built Red Fort in a game recently...only because I could, and all I can say is that I don't really understand it. I guess it's useful for a Tradition-Fealty play (which I never do), but a wonder it just seems so lacklustre that most of the time when I take Fealty I don't even bother building it. I'm inclined to suggest that it be swapped with something like Himeji Castle instead or maybe Brandenburg (or something) where the bonus is far more potent, enough to motivate me to pursue it.
How about a free promotion without gaining a level? Sort of like getting a free Policy doesn't make your next Policy cost more Culture.
even +10hp is pretty solid
chicorbeef
Emperor
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2017
- Messages
- 1,548
The only use I could see in building Red Fort is in denying it from the AI, because a city with Red Fort would be very annoying to try and conquer.
I feel like Neuschwanstein would be a good wonder for Fealty (I don't know about the mountain requirement, though. AFAIK in real life it's technically on a hill, so...maybe it's fair game to remove it?).
As for Alhambra, would ignoring terrain requirements in hills for melee units be too OP? I feel like that would be a good thematic promotion that wouldn't just be more combat strength stacking.
I feel like Neuschwanstein would be a good wonder for Fealty (I don't know about the mountain requirement, though. AFAIK in real life it's technically on a hill, so...maybe it's fair game to remove it?).
As for Alhambra, would ignoring terrain requirements in hills for melee units be too OP? I feel like that would be a good thematic promotion that wouldn't just be more combat strength stacking.
