Logistics

[tothePAIN]

I've asked about this in other threads with little response so I've created a thread for it.

Can anyone explain why logistics is a level 5 promotion for the archer and skirmisher line but level 4 for ranged ships and the siege line? Personally, I'd like this change reverted, so that it's a level 4 upgrade for everyone. Or, if it's going to remain a level 5 upgrade, can we not have logistics be locked behind the infiltrator upgrade? It's not an upgrade that I think most people prefer to take.

 

[Vhozite]

Yeah I’d prefer Logistics be moved down so it’s not gated behind Infiltration. I’m really not a fan of the Infiltration promotion and honestly I’d like to see it changed, but if other people like it then I think moving Logistics down is a good compromise.

 

[DeAnno]

I don't really like the design of Logistics at the moment but I don't think gating it behind a specialist promotion is really the nerf it needs, especially with it different for different unit types.

 

[JamesNinelives]

The reason it was moved to the end of the promotion tree was so that one promo tree wasn't obviously superior to the other.

I don't really care about what it's "gated" behind tbh because I don't bee-line it anyway. What promotion would you suggest?

 

[tothePAIN]

The reason it was moved to the end of the promotion tree was so that one promo tree wasn't obviously superior to the other.

I don't really care about what it's "gated" behind tbh because I don't bee-line it anyway. What promotion would you suggest?

I think the only class of units where logistics was clearly the best pick dictating which promotions to go was for ranged ships.

Skirmishes can only use safely use logistics with road support. Parthian tactics is a strong promo.

For the archer and siege line, range is strong enough that logistics isn't a straight up dominant pick forcing a promotion path. Also, for the archer line, accuracy is better than barrage, so the accuracy line would still be stronger until logistics.

I'd like logistics moved back to being directly after Barrage III. Level 4 upgrades still require 100 xp and take quite a while. Otherwise, I'd like it behind Coup De Grace. Infiltrators is a weird promotion that can actually penalize someone for being grouped with units.

 

[JamesNinelives]

I understand if you feel that way, the point I am making is simply that this change was a result of conversations on the subject - it wasn't made out of the blue.

Otherwise, I'd like it behind Coup De Grace.

OK. That's a possible alternative. I don't really have a stake in this myself, so let's see what other people think.

 

[Stalker0]

I will say that as long as range is a level IV promotion I don't mind Logistics being the same. I consider them about equivalent in terms of power, and I would also agree accuracy is a superior base promotion to barrage the majority of the time.

 

[looorg]

I guess the goal was to delay Logistics since it's for the human player the GOAL of the promotion tree for ranged units. Everything else is like meh and just picks you have to do to get there. In general I think it might as well be moved back to 4th but with the change that it gains half xp or something for the future since you are now taking double shots. But it's a bit weird to hide it behind a pick that in theory makes the shorts worse since you have to be alone to get the full effect of your shots. Which is just weird since logistics sort of require other people or a supply chain of people to work, in reality.

 

[Vhozite]

I think Logistics is a bit more powerful than range, albeit less safe. Theoretically Logistics gets you to the next promo 2x as fast, or at least let’s you shoot and scoot.

 

[chicorbeef]

Either way, make it level 4 or 5, I don't think it should be locked behind Infiltration.

 

[tothePAIN]

I understand if you feel that way, the point I am making is simply that this change was a result of conversations on the subject - it wasn't made out of the blue.


OK. That's a possible alternative. I don't really have a stake in this myself, so let's see what other people think.

I remember. I thought it was moving back for ships but not for the archer line. If we've decided that it's a level 5 upgrade, fine, but not behind infiltrators. But I thought it was only clearly the dominant pick for the ranged ship line, without range to balance it out. Logistics is great but range is also really strong because it enables attacking from more tiles.

Also, right now, field III allows for both logistics and range for siege units, which really throws off the balance there. You can go field III, get logistics, then get range, and then get volley. It's pretty safe too since field guns get indirect fire.

Right now, I don't bother with going for logistics on an archer line unit because I'd rather have a ranged indirect unit than a logistics infiltrator unit (and the logistics unit will take forever to get online).

 

[CrazyG]

If I recall correctly logistics was really OP for ships, ships with targeting + logistics did far more damage to cities than ships with 4 promotions dedicated to attacking cities.

It should be a tier 4 promotion for archers IMO, and not behind infiltrators (which is a really weird promotion for ranged units)

 

[DeAnno]

Weird idea: Introduce the +1 move promotion for all ranged lines that don't already have it as a level 4 promo, and gate Logistics behind that.

 

[azum4roll]

Does this seem OK?

Spoiler Promotion Trees :

Ship of the Line has to be given another free promotion instead of Indomitable. I suggest Splash or Splash II.

 

[DeAnno]

For naval ranged, why does Sentry come off of Targeting 1 but Bombardment 2? There doesn't seem to be any compensation for the Bombardment line.

 

[tothePAIN]

Does this seem OK?

Spoiler Promotion Trees :

View attachment 563216
View attachment 563217
View attachment 563218

Ship of the Line has to be given another free promotion instead of Indomitable. I suggest Splash or Splash II.

Yes, this looks good. I'm assuming that we'd make similar changes for the skirmisher line. It's a pretty significant nerf to Mongolia right now to have logistics where it is.

 

[Stalker0]

For naval ranged, why does Sentry come off of Targeting 1 but Bombardment 2? There doesn't seem to be any compensation for the Bombardment line.

Better yet, why does sentry exist at all? Who would you use a Sentry ranged ship (remember ranged ships have limited sight to begin with) compared to a Navigation I melee ship?

I honestly cannot think of a single time I have used sentry....like ever.

As far as I am concerned the sole purpose of that promotion is to help AIs make bad decisions

 

[Stalker0]

Does this seem OK?

Spoiler Promotion Trees :

View attachment 563216
View attachment 563217
View attachment 563218

Ship of the Line has to be given another free promotion instead of Indomitable. I suggest Splash or Splash II.

The ranged naval ones look good, assuming we want to keep logistics for ranged naval ships (I'm personally fine if it dies in a fire). I particularly like that bombardment gets equal access. I actually think the bombardment line is decent right now until you factor in logistics, and then targeting gets all the glory. But with this setup, its even steven.

 

[tothePAIN]

The ranged naval ones look good, assuming we want to keep logistics for ranged naval ships (I'm personally fine if it dies in a fire). I particularly like that bombardment gets equal access. I actually think the bombardment line is decent right now until you factor in logistics, and then targeting gets all the glory. But with this setup, its even steven.

I think logistics and ranged ships are needed on higher difficulties, given the challenges of beating the AI's waves of ships. I think naval is the only place where beelining for logistics is clearly the right play. For other units, going accuracy or siege to get range is a strong alternative. Particularly if its incredibly difficult to get logistics + range units. Right now, I can get a logistics + range + Field III siege unit with the 5th promotion (150 xp). On the archer line, that requires 8 promotions. It's realistically not going to happen in most games. So you'll end up wanting some units with logistics and some with range.

Getting 150 xp on a ranged ship is pretty hard on recent patches too, so it won't be *that* common.

 

[Cokolwiek]

Getting 150 xp on a ranged ship is pretty hard on recent patches too, so it won't be *that* common.

Agreed. Though generally there's a serious shallowness when it comes to naval warfare, stretching back from vanilla (no terrain play, production sink, trading units, whoever gets critical mass wins), so that's part of a wider problem.