Lonely Hearts Club, BtS Edition, Chapter LXXIV: Hammurabi

[sampsa]

Of course, depends what you are aiming for. For me, the "optimal" thing is what leads to faster victory. Earlier in the thread, vicawoo says he got 125AD astro on his 2nd attempt. Certainly possible if you aim for it and probably leads to the fastest win. My -management was weak and I'm paying the price, getting astro only 350AD. I wouldn't call 500-600AD astro fast at all on this map. Of course going for stuff like artillery is a massive overkill, trebs are probably good enough.

Which decision was the mistake - yours or mine?

I think moving off the plains hill to settle on a forest T1 is a mistake. It just slows you down enormously (4T later worker). Wet wheat is a great tile certainly, but can be picked off with the 2nd city. That choice certainly made bureau a lot better later, so I'm not saying it was pointless.

 

[Fish Man]

Of course, depends what you are aiming for. For me, the "optimal" thing is what leads to faster victory. Earlier in the thread, vicawoo says he got 125AD astro on his 2nd attempt. Certainly possible if you aim for it and probably leads to the fastest win. My -management was weak and I'm paying the price, getting astro only 350AD. I wouldn't call 500-600AD astro fast at all on this map. Of course going for stuff like artillery is a massive overkill, trebs are probably good enough.


I think moving off the plains hill to settle on a forest T1 is a mistake. It just slows you down enormously (4T later worker). Wet wheat is a great tile certainly, but can be picked off with the 2nd city. That choice certainly made bureau a lot better later, so I'm not saying it was pointless.

Yeah, agree arty was overkill. Should've spammed cuirs and just been done with it. Anything less than deity cuirs are probably the most solid choice and fastest 99% of the time. In an IU semi-iso Mao game that I attempted not long ago, bulbed astro 300AD and then libbed cuirs. Didn't really need to tech anything else (though got communism then rifling for more carnage and historical accuracy).

4t late worker is the main drawback, but from my point of view food == hammers in this game. And considering the whipping ratio after a granary, wet wheat is basically a 10h tile for most of the early game. Much better than +1h from city center, if I do say so myself.

 

[sampsa]

4t late worker is the main drawback, but from my point of view food == hammers in this game. And considering the whipping ratio after a granary, wet wheat is basically a 10h tile for most of the early game. Much better than +1h from city center, if I do say so myself.

Oh wet wheat is better than +1h city center, no question. But it's not a good comparison, because you can get both. I 1-pop whipped a lot in 2nd city.

 

[Fish Man]

Oh wet wheat is better than +1h city center, no question. But it's not a good comparison, because you can get both. I 1-pop whipped a lot in 2nd city.

Uh...pretty sure you can't? Wheat is 3 tiles away from PH?

 

[sampsa]

Uh...pretty sure you can't? Wheat is 3 tiles away from PH?

Get wheat with 2nd city.

 

[Fish Man]

Get wheat with 2nd city.

Ah, I see. I'm of the philosophy that a cap is the strongest with two good food resources...chose to settle 2nd city by SW clams for food and cottages. To each their own then.

 

[krikav]

Fist of all, wonderful feedback, thank you soo much!

 

[krikav]

Looks pretty good. Maybe some worker actions could have been improved, roads and mines in NW are less important than cottages in SE-area, which looks a bit neglected. Market in capital is maybe worth it, outside of it no. Capturing the barb city would be huge (trade routes), so getting some swords out asap would be great. Is CoL the correct tech path now? I'd just go towards optics.

Could well be. I feel like sometimes I get most (all) of my workers "trapped" in one part of the empire, and since I'm very weary about wasing worker turns, I tend to want to improve things while moving them. Some better decisions to avoid having all of them getting clumped together should good. Maybee not "This city is yours and you should never leave it" since that is abit to rigorous but I should probably abide some guidelines.

Regarding cottages on the grassland. Outside of the capital I'm very doubtful if it's worth it if you have access to coast.
I mean you have to spend 4 worker turns to get it, and then you have to work the cottage 10 turns to mature it to a hamlet, thereby losing 10 commerce. Then you work neutral for 20 more turns and after that you regain the lost 10 commerce over a period of 10 more turns and only after that you start making a profit.
4 workerturns and 40 turns of working the tile just to break even? Not impressive imho.
If you mean SE of the capital then yes, a few cottages there was up and running way too late.

Regarding barb city, I was behind in tech, only reached IW 1AD, and two swords got whipped right away. One swordman with medic and one with CR. The idea that the CR swordman could reach lvl 4 for heroic epic on the experience. I reason that the extra time it will take to get the city will be worth it in the end. Not sure thats correct though.

 

[krikav]

Is CoL the correct tech path now? I'd just go towards optics.

Not sure about that at all, but I think CoL is faster. With ORG you can 2pop whip courthouses all over the island and probably reach optics faster.

In fact as I played on last night I went CoL, CS, Med, Philo, MC, Machinery, Optics.
The detour to CoL I stand by, and I think that CS was worth it as well. Philo I'm way less sure about.

 

[krikav]

1AD

Spoiler :

I went for a more traditional tech path (IMO astro is the thing you should be aiming for asap in isolation). Optics will be in 100AD and 2nd GS to pop astro 350AD. Some poor planning there, could have GS a bit earlier. I don't think cramming in as many cities as possible is better, even with land this good.

View attachment 504875

Not questioning your judgement but just want to know.
What makes you prioritize Astro so high?
Two ofshore cities on that island soon gives you intercontinental trade routes, so you get less of a boost in traderoutes.

 

[krikav]

Very, very hard for me to believe that currency+CS beat faster astro.

Ah, I see! With the astro beeline you don't even make a pitstop for currency? Do you skip math as well?
Will check out your save.

Because there is nothing better to do currently and I think off-river cottages are slightly better than working coast. I am not making farms because I have no CS and no -cap that allows it. In the NW-area farms would probably be better though, thanks for mentioning.[/QUOTE]
NW yes, but also around the 2tile-lake. I settled my third city by that lake for the wet wheat and the possiblity to irrigate the sugar and the grassland there.

 

[krikav]

4t late worker is the main drawback, but from my point of view food == hammers in this game. And considering the whipping ratio after a granary, wet wheat is basically a 10h tile for most of the early game. Much better than +1h from city center, if I do say so myself.

It's not just 4t late worker, it's a 4 turn later everything.
It could be that your reasoning are better, but I settled on the incense as the second city, which got the wheat and later the fish.
This city produced the bulk of my settlers with 3pop whips.

Sampsa: this city was the only other that I had a market in, reason beeing I could not produce another settler since I had no more city spaces, it was starting to grow into unhappiness and a market would give me the chance of running 4 specialists.

 

[krikav]

Ah, I see. I'm of the philosophy that a cap is the strongest with two good food resources...chose to settle 2nd city by SW clams for food and cottages. To each their own then.

I did have minor problems periodically with capital growing abit slower than I liked.
However with this low happy-cap, I think it's also important to have almost all citizens working up them cottages.

 

[krikav]

1610AD conquest.

Thats a BC125 save so a few more turns to 1AD.
8 cities compared to my 14 is abit fewer, but you are way ahead in tech with CS allready in place.
I see from the logg, that you got currency after your fifth city.

In my game my techrate froze to a fimbulwinter while I was REXing, I barely reached maths and then slogged along for what fealth like a eternity.

If I would have managed to stall expansion for abit, in time to reach currency, I think that the extra traderoutes would have given an edge.
How do you reason around this?

 

[Fish Man]

Thats a BC125 save so a few more turns to 1AD.
8 cities compared to my 14 is abit fewer, but you are way ahead in tech with CS allready in place.
I see from the logg, that you got currency after your fifth city.

In my game my techrate froze to a fimbulwinter while I was REXing, I barely reached maths and then slogged along for what fealth like a eternity.

If I would have managed to stall expansion for abit, in time to reach currency, I think that the extra traderoutes would have given an edge.
How do you reason around this?

14! 14 cities! That's quite excessive for iso, and you generally shouldn't expand nearly that much until you 1. have optics or 2. have currency. The former sets you on a path for bulbing astro ASAP which gives you TR + resources and gives you tradebait for economic techs, while the latter gives you build wealth which enables your effective expansion from 6 to ~18 cities (more than that and you start to need communism to keep up with the costs).

You just need 6-7 good cities to whip cuirs, cannons, or galleons from and to research/bulb everything for those. Once you have astro and the key military techs you can basically whip your economy into the ground, because from then on it's chain-capping time and research is no longer needed.

Ofc I decided to be fancy and be the first to econ, communism, physics, and also went for artillery because why not. But you don't have to do that. A few cannons will absolutely shred through any medieval army, a lot will annihilate rifles, and 50+ can deal with even infantry handily.

 

[Fish Man]

I did have minor problems periodically with capital growing abit slower than I liked.
However with this low happy-cap, I think it's also important to have almost all citizens working up them cottages.

It's only low happy-cap until you research calendar and get astro. Then you have all the happy in the world.

Also capital as a whip factory is IMO key for expansion, and 5->3 whipping (settlers) is what i mostly did here, keeping the 3 "power tiles" (corn, wheat, gems). Fast regrowth doesn't always have to lead to unhappy if you "slow" build (and by slow I mean 4-turn) a worker once you reach size 4 and only then after that stop stagnating the cap.

 

[sampsa]

Sorry for the late response.

Not sure about that at all, but I think CoL is faster. With ORG you can 2pop whip courthouses all over the island and probably reach optics faster.

In fact as I played on last night I went CoL, CS, Med, Philo, MC, Machinery, Optics.
The detour to CoL I stand by, and I think that CS was worth it as well. Philo I'm way less sure about.

There is IMO no way that detouring to CoL to get courthouses leads to faster optics. If it does, you have majorly over-expanded. CS and Philo obviously not, but certainly bureau is useful for you since you invested in your capital (academy).

Regarding cottages on the grassland. Outside of the capital I'm very doubtful if it's worth it if you have access to coast.
I mean you have to spend 4 worker turns to get it, and then you have to work the cottage 10 turns to mature it to a hamlet, thereby losing 10 commerce. Then you work neutral for 20 more turns and after that you regain the lost 10 commerce over a period of 10 more turns and only after that you start making a profit.
4 workerturns and 40 turns of working the tile just to break even? Not impressive imho.

Well, I said they are slighly better than coast, not that they are great. Certainly they should be built only when workers have nothing better to do. Yes, I understand that it takes 40 turns to break even (btw, note that it takes longer if you are financial), so it depends mostly on how long the game is going to be. No big deal either way I'm sure.

What makes you prioritize Astro so high? Two ofshore cities on that island soon gives you intercontinental trade routes, so you get less of a boost in traderoutes.

Resource trades mostly, but also the ability to go to war or expand to unclaimed islands.

Ah, I see! With the astro beeline you don't even make a pitstop for currency? Do you skip math as well?

Yep, no math, no currency. I think earlier optics+astro is just much more beneficial. Math and currency can be gained via trade.

You should check out the deity isolated -thread for tips from better players than me.

14! 14 cities! That's quite excessive for iso, and you generally shouldn't expand nearly that much until you 1. have optics or 2. have currency. The former sets you on a path for bulbing astro ASAP which gives you TR + resources and gives you tradebait for economic techs, while the latter gives you build wealth which enables your effective expansion from 6 to ~18 cities (more than that and you start to need communism to keep up with the costs).

Yes, I think 14 cities in isolation is just too much, I'd even question if my 11 is excessive. Well, this is not deity and we are org, but still.

 

[krikav]

Sorry for the late response.

No problem and thanks!

There is IMO no way that detouring to CoL to get courthouses leads to faster optics. If it does, you have majorly over-expanded.

Yes this appears to be the case. Too much too soon can be a big problem!

I did try to replay the start once more, but this time holding expansion back abit more early on so that I could reach currency, before tanking the economy with overexpansion. This time I reached 16 cities.
The 1AD result was even more impressive than the previous tries.

I want to focus on other games right now, but I should have also made some trial with keeping the empire abit more streamlined, I'm sure that it could yield even better results.
And w/o ORG this difference should be even more telling.

 

[krikav]

I assume this is the thread you mention?
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/deity-isolation-workshop-stan-norm-fractal-nh-ne.612863/

 

[sampsa]

I did try to replay the start once more, but this time holding expansion back abit more early on so that I could reach currency, before tanking the economy with overexpansion. This time I reached 16 cities.
The 1AD result was even more impressive than the previous tries.

I want to focus on other games right now, but I should have also made some trial with keeping the empire abit more streamlined, I'm sure that it could yield even better results.
And w/o ORG this difference should be even more telling.

Yeh, I think ORG is the thing that allows such extreme expanding. However, just looking at empire ++ -output might lead us astray, as often the bottleneck of winning the game is something else than raw yields.