Ahriman
Tyrant
Longbows upgrading to gatling guns have the ranged promotion replaced by the Ambush promotion. Is this intended?
Longbow to gatling gun
- Thread starter Ahriman
- Start date
Update: I checked this out in the promo swaps file.
What looks like happened is longbow's indirect fire was replaced with ambush at the upgrade. Range was replaced with charge. It's intended in either case. I'm not sure that those are equal swaps. Faster MGs aren't all that great. The ambush upgrade is kind of nice since MGs would be pretty good against cavalry, and vanguards in a sense represent conscripted untrained assault forces.
What looks like happened is longbow's indirect fire was replaced with ambush at the upgrade. Range was replaced with charge. It's intended in either case. I'm not sure that those are equal swaps. Faster MGs aren't all that great. The ambush upgrade is kind of nice since MGs would be pretty good against cavalry, and vanguards in a sense represent conscripted untrained assault forces.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Ah. I think longbows should just lose indirect fire on upgrade (actually I don't think they ever need it at all).
There is no way that gatling guns upgraded from Longbows should be getting two free promotions.
My problem with ambush is: doesn't it also affect tanks? MGs should not be good vs tanks, IRL tanks are basically designed as a counter to MGs.
Plus, vanguards are already very weak on attack and MGs are defensive units, so there really isn't a need to use MGs against vanguards.
I'm not sure what the best solution is here. I think CKNs and Longbows should retain some advantage when promoted, but I'm not sure what that should be, and it seems weird to shoe-horn them into a specialization against a particular unit type. Would it be weird if they got morale, as a generic boost, or cover?
There is no way that gatling guns upgraded from Longbows should be getting two free promotions.
My problem with ambush is: doesn't it also affect tanks? MGs should not be good vs tanks, IRL tanks are basically designed as a counter to MGs.
Plus, vanguards are already very weak on attack and MGs are defensive units, so there really isn't a need to use MGs against vanguards.
I'm not sure what the best solution is here. I think CKNs and Longbows should retain some advantage when promoted, but I'm not sure what that should be, and it seems weird to shoe-horn them into a specialization against a particular unit type. Would it be weird if they got morale, as a generic boost, or cover?
Charge makes less sense than ambush. Armies don't use MGs and artillery to attack "wounded" units usually but as psychological weapons to start or counter an offensive. I'd definitely replace this promo swap, at least for GG/MGs. It makes sense going from camel archers to cavalry. Not in this case.
The anti-tank part is a problem. I'm not sure which promo should be used instead however. Cover makes some sense instead of indirect fire.
I'm not sure why longbows get indirect fire either, certainly not for free.
The anti-tank part is a problem. I'm not sure which promo should be used instead however. Cover makes some sense instead of indirect fire.
I'm not sure why longbows get indirect fire either, certainly not for free.
Ahriman
Tyrant
One question: how are these swaps defined? Are the global, or for particular upgrades?
In other words: does setting what we get when Longbows with ranged are upgraded to gatling guns also affect what happens when camel archers with range are upgraded to dragoons.
Or can we set these differently?
Because I'd be glad to see Longbows upgrade to gatling guns with Cover, but I wouldnt' want to see camel archers upgrading to dragoons with cover.
I think it is a mistake, myself. Longbows are arguably the best UU in the game. They would be very good even without Indirect Fire (and you could increase their ranged attack by 1 if needed), and this would in my view mean that you had to use them more selectively in their placement; put them on hills, put them to cover open terrain, etc.
I think it is weird that you can use them as super-artillery, creating a massive carpet of longbows that can destroy everything in their path regardless of intervening terrain.
In other words: does setting what we get when Longbows with ranged are upgraded to gatling guns also affect what happens when camel archers with range are upgraded to dragoons.
Or can we set these differently?
Because I'd be glad to see Longbows upgrade to gatling guns with Cover, but I wouldnt' want to see camel archers upgrading to dragoons with cover.
I think Thal felt that indirect fire was needed to get the most out or Range.
I think it is a mistake, myself. Longbows are arguably the best UU in the game. They would be very good even without Indirect Fire (and you could increase their ranged attack by 1 if needed), and this would in my view mean that you had to use them more selectively in their placement; put them on hills, put them to cover open terrain, etc.
I think it is weird that you can use them as super-artillery, creating a massive carpet of longbows that can destroy everything in their path regardless of intervening terrain.
As I understand it. The promotion swaps are related to the unit combat class. That's why mounted archers had to be swapped out as a separate class. They then are set up to be ranged/melee/vanguard promotions from there.
We could easily make "gun" units into "ranged" promos but then they would have access to the ranged promotions. May have to wait for Thal to weigh in as it's largely his system and I'm just trying to interpret it. It's possible we could set MGs specifically as "Gun" is a specific unit class and change what they get while camel archers get something else.
I'd propose getting rid of indirect fire on longbows. That seems fine to me. You can get it anyway as a promotion eventually and the range is far more powerful. Once on a hill, it's pretty easy to create the same effects.
We could easily make "gun" units into "ranged" promos but then they would have access to the ranged promotions. May have to wait for Thal to weigh in as it's largely his system and I'm just trying to interpret it. It's possible we could set MGs specifically as "Gun" is a specific unit class and change what they get while camel archers get something else.
I'd propose getting rid of indirect fire on longbows. That seems fine to me. You can get it anyway as a promotion eventually and the range is far more powerful. Once on a hill, it's pretty easy to create the same effects.
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