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Longswordsmen and Great War Infantry

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by j51, Aug 20, 2012.

  1. jjkrause84

    jjkrause84 King

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    Don't forget: there were more French than Americans or Brits combined at Yorktown...


    (anyways sorry for the tangent...carry on!)
     
  2. Callonia

    Callonia Deity

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    U seem to fail to grasp that paratroopers and marines is optional. If you need them, you will build them. If you don't, you don't. There have been times where marines and paratroopers was simply way more useful than mech infantries.

    Sometimes, there's simply just badlands where they excel at.

    And on defense, paratroopers can even do even more tricks that mech infantry simply can't do like bypassing enemy lines in your territory. I seriously disrupted one of chinese invasions by judicious use of paratroopers to penetrate the invasion forces with ww2 infantry tanking the charge. And the fact that you can't just simply road each single hex increases the value on paratroopers in fact. They can move further and quicker than mech infantry does, and bypass mountain ranges. Or even provide quick chain of island defense lines.

    Tons of small islands but japan couldn't invade them so easily due to me keeping paratroopers in the area. They was forced to do too much amphibious assaults. Which in turn, bled them too much for them to even actually take cities on smaller islands nevermind the fact that they ran out of forces to even push on and take the main island in a island chain.
     
  3. Louis XXIV

    Louis XXIV Le Roi Soleil

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    Yeah, I know. It's the fight to a standstill at Monmouth Courthouse that is generally considered the American troops "proving themselves."
     
  4. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    I get that. I'm merely saying that people focusing solely on the Western time period when Great War Infantry and Infantry were introduced kind of defeats the point of having a game where you command history. It also leads to situations where people get upset because a unit may turn up outside of it's 'historical' (from a strictly Western perspective) context, which is a bit silly. That's all I meant on the subject.

    I've already mentioned the marketing aspect and we completely agree on that.

    I also wasn't trying to argue that weren't too many units (though I disagree on the assertion that there are, but this is largely an opinion issue so I'm not arguing that point - just stating my opinion).

    I think this was directed to me, but I'll take a whack at it in any case.

    Units like marines and paratroopers are optional. The problem is, the situations where their obvious benefits are really useful are also usually situations where I can get by just as well with other 'mainline' units. Their abilities are not so well-developed that there are many situations where I could do much better with them. I'm not saying they don't happen, but it's rare. I guess what I really want is more well-developed/stronger unique abilities for units like this. Lacking such, I don't use them because as I stated, I get by just as fine without them.

    There's also the opportunity cost of building them. Sure I could build a marine to take a coastal city. But then I've taken it and the marine is largely redundant. I could have built a more powerful, more general-purpose unit like a tank or bomber instead. I don't knock the concept of marines, paratroopers, etc.; rather I knock the execution.

    BTW - I am pretty sure that Paratroopers can only paradrop when they start off inside your own territory. Which means they aren't quite as mobile as you posit - though I can't remember if they can use enemy roads or not which would offset the limited paradrop somewhat, but not completely. The limited paradrop, coupled with a relatively small drop raiuus and the lack of drop-then-attack in one turn really offsets the paradrop and turns what could be an awesome unit into something that's really meh and highly situational.

    BTW again - People have tried to argue how useful paratroopers are by pointing out their own strategies in other threads. These strategies often included massive aerial bombardment and/or the use of nuclear weapons. Any 'optional' unit that requires the extensive use of other units or nuclear weapons is pretty meh in my opinion.
     
  5. Callonia

    Callonia Deity

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    Actually, Paratroopers is extremely mobile defenders. As long as you use them in your own territory. I've had situations where mountain ranges and island chains which was my own territory where paratroopers just plain excelled in moving around. Thats what i was trying to say.


    As for marines, I admit they are bit retundant now in gods n kings considering that destroyers can now melee a city. However they're also not retundant at same time, for some reason you're lacking in ranged support for your navy, you can basically double attack a city in same turn due to dessys and transports occupying a same hex is allowed now.

    Tbh it doesn't really bother me, build a bunch marines and do a d-day and push in deep. Marines did their job now they help with garrison happiness as i push inland or serve as reinforcements in case the AI somehow does the unthinkable and do something extremely good in combat. And with marines, you're getting the amphibious promo for free :p
     
  6. Harv72b

    Harv72b Prince

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    Where Marines would rock would be on an archipelago/tiny islands map, when built in a city with Brandenburg Gate. March & Amphibious right off the bat on a map which isn't exactly conducive to racking up promotions with land-based melee units.
     
  7. Callonia

    Callonia Deity

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    Bradenburg Gate or Almaharba? Cuz Almaharba gives a free promo as well. I once had both built in a same high production city, was yummy xD
     
  8. smallfish

    smallfish Immortal

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    What would make Great Admirals & Marines even more attractive than they are currently... is the ability to have their movement stacked with the unit escorting them, like a Hakkapeliitta with a Great General.
     
  9. Callonia

    Callonia Deity

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    What was the amphious penalty again? -20% I seem to recall it was like -50% in the past.
     
  10. NukeAJS

    NukeAJS King

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    I'm sure someone has already pointed this out already but longswordsmen obsolete at metallurgy, not gunpowder. So, you can make a UU Samurai and immediately upgrade it to a musket man. Their two promotions carry over -- shock 1 and great generals 2.

    So it doesn't limit its life, it actually makes them better.
     
  11. Matches

    Matches Chieftain

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    I just started playing and was befuddled by Railroad's place in the tree, in particular. Since I started playing Civ games I've always liked to get to Railroad as soon as possible because I love being able to zip around my territory. And so I was confused to see Railroad A.) in the Modern Era rather than Industrial, and B.) having Dynamite(!) as a prerequisite tech. The patent for dynamite was filed in 1867, and railroads had been booming well before then; the U.S. had already completed its transcontinental railroad just 2 years after dynamite.
     
  12. cakes

    cakes Prince

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    i think they'll work the tech tree out eventually. there is a bit of mess in the later game but some things like navigation > archaeology are excusable as museums developed from 'wonder rooms'; collections of curiosities from around the world.
     
  13. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    Mobile defense/rapid response is actually a great way to use paratroopers. But I have to say that overall they suck at offensive combat unless extensively supported by artillery or bombers. (They should be supported, my case is that they are almost useless without major support. Yes, you can pillage behind the lines, but that's a limited use for what could be a great unit)

    It's not that they are all-around awful, they just need a bigger drop radius and a drop+attack in 1 turn ability.


    Agreed.
     
  14. nukehumvee

    nukehumvee Warlord

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    Longswordsmen to Musketmen's a bit too fast, really; but the WWI infantry is just ridiculously absurd. Infantrymen of both world wars have only a few differences.
     

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