Longswordsmen and Great War Infantry

[jjkrause84]

Aside from a couple of key battles, which, with the exception of Yorktown (and a few others, e.g., Monmouth), could be attributed to generaliship (Arnold, Morgan) rather than fighting prowess. Yorktown was an indication that the American troops were competent to fight the British (although the French Navy was certainly crucial as well).

Don't forget: there were more French than Americans or Brits combined at Yorktown...


(anyways sorry for the tangent...carry on!)

 

[Callonia]

U seem to fail to grasp that paratroopers and marines is optional. If you need them, you will build them. If you don't, you don't. There have been times where marines and paratroopers was simply way more useful than mech infantries.

Sometimes, there's simply just badlands where they excel at.

And on defense, paratroopers can even do even more tricks that mech infantry simply can't do like bypassing enemy lines in your territory. I seriously disrupted one of chinese invasions by judicious use of paratroopers to penetrate the invasion forces with ww2 infantry tanking the charge. And the fact that you can't just simply road each single hex increases the value on paratroopers in fact. They can move further and quicker than mech infantry does, and bypass mountain ranges. Or even provide quick chain of island defense lines.

Tons of small islands but japan couldn't invade them so easily due to me keeping paratroopers in the area. They was forced to do too much amphibious assaults. Which in turn, bled them too much for them to even actually take cities on smaller islands nevermind the fact that they ran out of forces to even push on and take the main island in a island chain.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Don't forget: there were more French than Americans or Brits combined at Yorktown...


(anyways sorry for the tangent...carry on!)

Yeah, I know. It's the fight to a standstill at Monmouth Courthouse that is generally considered the American troops "proving themselves."

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Well, being Western centric at least makes some sense in the late game (less so in the early-mid game), historically. From a playability stand-point, it is a Western game for (primarily) Western consumption....of course it is Euro-centric. If it wasn't, people would not identify with it and probably would not play it (unfortunate, but true.....we like what we know).

Way I see it, there are four main infantry units from the mid-1800s to now....a space of 150-odd years. It's too many, in my book. Spread them out.

I get that. I'm merely saying that people focusing solely on the Western time period when Great War Infantry and Infantry were introduced kind of defeats the point of having a game where you command history. It also leads to situations where people get upset because a unit may turn up outside of it's 'historical' (from a strictly Western perspective) context, which is a bit silly. That's all I meant on the subject.

I've already mentioned the marketing aspect and we completely agree on that.

I also wasn't trying to argue that weren't too many units (though I disagree on the assertion that there are, but this is largely an opinion issue so I'm not arguing that point - just stating my opinion).

U seem to fail to grasp that paratroopers and marines is optional. If you need them, you will build them. If you don't, you don't. There have been times where marines and paratroopers was simply way more useful than mech infantries.

Sometimes, there's simply just badlands where they excel at.

And on defense, paratroopers can even do even more tricks that mech infantry simply can't do like bypassing enemy lines in your territory. I seriously disrupted one of chinese invasions by judicious use of paratroopers to penetrate the invasion forces with ww2 infantry tanking the charge. And the fact that you can't just simply road each single hex increases the value on paratroopers in fact. They can move further and quicker than mech infantry does, and bypass mountain ranges. Or even provide quick chain of island defense lines.

Tons of small islands but japan couldn't invade them so easily due to me keeping paratroopers in the area. They was forced to do too much amphibious assaults. Which in turn, bled them too much for them to even actually take cities on smaller islands nevermind the fact that they ran out of forces to even push on and take the main island in a island chain.

I think this was directed to me, but I'll take a whack at it in any case.

Units like marines and paratroopers are optional. The problem is, the situations where their obvious benefits are really useful are also usually situations where I can get by just as well with other 'mainline' units. Their abilities are not so well-developed that there are many situations where I could do much better with them. I'm not saying they don't happen, but it's rare. I guess what I really want is more well-developed/stronger unique abilities for units like this. Lacking such, I don't use them because as I stated, I get by just as fine without them.

There's also the opportunity cost of building them. Sure I could build a marine to take a coastal city. But then I've taken it and the marine is largely redundant. I could have built a more powerful, more general-purpose unit like a tank or bomber instead. I don't knock the concept of marines, paratroopers, etc.; rather I knock the execution.

BTW - I am pretty sure that Paratroopers can only paradrop when they start off inside your own territory. Which means they aren't quite as mobile as you posit - though I can't remember if they can use enemy roads or not which would offset the limited paradrop somewhat, but not completely. The limited paradrop, coupled with a relatively small drop raiuus and the lack of drop-then-attack in one turn really offsets the paradrop and turns what could be an awesome unit into something that's really meh and highly situational.

BTW again - People have tried to argue how useful paratroopers are by pointing out their own strategies in other threads. These strategies often included massive aerial bombardment and/or the use of nuclear weapons. Any 'optional' unit that requires the extensive use of other units or nuclear weapons is pretty meh in my opinion.

 

[Callonia]

Units like marines and paratroopers are optional. The problem is, the situations where their obvious benefits are really useful are also usually situations where I can get by just as well with other 'mainline' units. Their abilities are not so well-developed that there are many situations where I could do much better with them. I'm not saying they don't happen, but it's rare. I guess what I really want is more well-developed/stronger unique abilities for units like this. Lacking such, I don't use them because as I stated, I get by just as fine without them.

There's also the opportunity cost of building them. Sure I could build a marine to take a coastal city. But then I've taken it and the marine is largely redundant. I could have built a more powerful, more general-purpose unit like a tank or bomber instead. I don't knock the concept of marines, paratroopers, etc.; rather I knock the execution.

Actually, Paratroopers is extremely mobile defenders. As long as you use them in your own territory. I've had situations where mountain ranges and island chains which was my own territory where paratroopers just plain excelled in moving around. Thats what i was trying to say.


As for marines, I admit they are bit retundant now in gods n kings considering that destroyers can now melee a city. However they're also not retundant at same time, for some reason you're lacking in ranged support for your navy, you can basically double attack a city in same turn due to dessys and transports occupying a same hex is allowed now.

Tbh it doesn't really bother me, build a bunch marines and do a d-day and push in deep. Marines did their job now they help with garrison happiness as i push inland or serve as reinforcements in case the AI somehow does the unthinkable and do something extremely good in combat. And with marines, you're getting the amphibious promo for free

 

[Harv72b]

Tbh it doesn't really bother me, build a bunch marines and do a d-day and push in deep. Marines did their job now they help with garrison happiness as i push inland or serve as reinforcements in case the AI somehow does the unthinkable and do something extremely good in combat. And with marines, you're getting the amphibious promo for free

Where Marines would rock would be on an archipelago/tiny islands map, when built in a city with Brandenburg Gate. March & Amphibious right off the bat on a map which isn't exactly conducive to racking up promotions with land-based melee units.

 

[Callonia]

Where Marines would rock would be on an archipelago/tiny islands map, when built in a city with Brandenburg Gate. March & Amphibious right off the bat on a map which isn't exactly conducive to racking up promotions with land-based melee units.

Bradenburg Gate or Almaharba? Cuz Almaharba gives a free promo as well. I once had both built in a same high production city, was yummy xD

 

[smallfish]

What would make Great Admirals & Marines even more attractive than they are currently... is the ability to have their movement stacked with the unit escorting them, like a Hakkapeliitta with a Great General.

 

[Callonia]

What was the amphious penalty again? -20% I seem to recall it was like -50% in the past.

 

[NukeAJS]

I'm sure someone has already pointed this out already but longswordsmen obsolete at metallurgy, not gunpowder. So, you can make a UU Samurai and immediately upgrade it to a musket man. Their two promotions carry over -- shock 1 and great generals 2.

So it doesn't limit its life, it actually makes them better.

 

[Matches]

Actually, the whole Modern Era is just too screwy. Has anyone even looked at it? Railroads appear at the same time as Refrigeration and Radio, Flight is before combustion, Great War Infantry come before Machine Guns (to a such a degree that you never see them fighting one another, though this may be a generalizatin on my part), and of course Infantry coming one tech tier after Great War Infantry. Some more techs would be nice, but I'm not sure how that would affect the game flow. I would hate to have an issue like Vanilla where some techs had three or four buildables while others had one or none.

I just started playing and was befuddled by Railroad's place in the tree, in particular. Since I started playing Civ games I've always liked to get to Railroad as soon as possible because I love being able to zip around my territory. And so I was confused to see Railroad A.) in the Modern Era rather than Industrial, and B.) having Dynamite(!) as a prerequisite tech. The patent for dynamite was filed in 1867, and railroads had been booming well before then; the U.S. had already completed its transcontinental railroad just 2 years after dynamite.

 

[cakes]

i think they'll work the tech tree out eventually. there is a bit of mess in the later game but some things like navigation > archaeology are excusable as museums developed from 'wonder rooms'; collections of curiosities from around the world.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Actually, Paratroopers is extremely mobile defenders. As long as you use them in your own territory. I've had situations where mountain ranges and island chains which was my own territory where paratroopers just plain excelled in moving around. Thats what i was trying to say.

Mobile defense/rapid response is actually a great way to use paratroopers. But I have to say that overall they suck at offensive combat unless extensively supported by artillery or bombers. (They should be supported, my case is that they are almost useless without major support. Yes, you can pillage behind the lines, but that's a limited use for what could be a great unit)

It's not that they are all-around awful, they just need a bigger drop radius and a drop+attack in 1 turn ability.

As for marines, I admit they are bit retundant now in gods n kings considering that destroyers can now melee a city. However they're also not retundant at same time, for some reason you're lacking in ranged support for your navy, you can basically double attack a city in same turn due to dessys and transports occupying a same hex is allowed now.

Agreed.

 

[nukehumvee]

Longswordsmen to Musketmen's a bit too fast, really; but the WWI infantry is just ridiculously absurd. Infantrymen of both world wars have only a few differences.