Looking for advice moving up the difficulties

[Deadstarre]

Not sure what the current consensus on this practice is (cheese?) but worker stealing is also something that should be done liberally IMO.

Taking 1 from a CS and making peace on the same turn is a no brainer, but you can also cripple your neighbors by taking theirs, and taking theirs again. AI is extremely forgiving in the early game and also very quick to make peace since they have a perceived low "war score" without any units in your territory, but since you have one in theirs when you take it- youre "ahead". Even if they get you surrounded and are just about to kill your scout/warrior (pillage wisely) they'll almost always make peace in 3 turns (epic speed). As the Aztecs you'll even occasionally get golden ages from their UA as an added bonus for having taken a free worker


With cities having 1 range, plus AI connecting their cities with roads very early its easy to grab 4 workers or so - just keep DOWing fearlessly early on. But then cut that out heh...


Oh another thing, if you have no need of the workers when you steal them, you can even use them to scout a little bit with impunity- i wouldn't go too far but its worth noting that barb camps don't move off their site to steal civilians anymore (they did in vanilla as i recall) - so theres a fairly low risk of being caught with your worker out in the wild. They can even cash in on ruins =) depends how early in the game you stole it whether its worth ruin hunting with them


About ruins, there another thread currently which was discussing how unfair it is on deity to get almost no ruins, because a lone starting warrior can't traverse terrain quickly enough to find them before theyre gobbled up. I agree with those posters, however there are at least 3 civs circumventing this, and letting you play any start that didn't include settling directly on forest for a turn 2 scout- Aztec, Iroquois and Shoshone. Unless youre really unlucky that woodsman promotion is usually good enough to get 2 moves per turn with your starting unit. and Pathfinders? a godsend! plus with defense promotions/medic (not to mention encampments and UA bonus) they can be useful in war for a loooong time


the way this game works with early benefits snowballing in your favor, its hard for me to pick a civ that gets late bonuses (you can have your musketeers Napoleon) - so if youre lookin for a crutch to take on harder difficulties now, i'd say try one of those civs as well. Aztec + Authority is a freakin blast

 

[Edaka]

Not sure what the current consensus on this practice is (cheese?) but worker stealing is also something that should be done liberally IMO.

Taking 1 from a CS and making peace on the same turn is a no brainer, but you can also cripple your neighbors by taking theirs, and taking theirs again. AI is extremely forgiving in the early game and also very quick to make peace since they have a perceived low "war score" without any units in your territory, but since you have one in theirs when you take it- youre "ahead". Even if they get you surrounded and are just about to kill your scout/warrior (pillage wisely) they'll almost always make peace in 3 turns (epic speed). As the Aztecs you'll even occasionally get golden ages from their UA as an added bonus for having taken a free worker


With cities having 1 range, plus AI connecting their cities with roads very early its easy to grab 4 workers or so - just keep DOWing fearlessly early on. But then cut that out heh...


Oh another thing, if you have no need of the workers when you steal them, you can even use them to scout a little bit with impunity- i wouldn't go too far but its worth noting that barb camps don't move off their site to steal civilians anymore (they did in vanilla as i recall) - so theres a fairly low risk of being caught with your worker out in the wild. They can even cash in on ruins =) depends how early in the game you stole it whether its worth ruin hunting with them


About ruins, there another thread currently which was discussing how unfair it is on deity to get almost no ruins, because a lone starting warrior can't traverse terrain quickly enough to find them before theyre gobbled up. I agree with those posters, however there are at least 3 civs circumventing this, and letting you play any start that didn't include settling directly on forest for a turn 2 scout- Aztec, Iroquois and Shoshone. Unless youre really unlucky that woodsman promotion is usually good enough to get 2 moves per turn with your starting unit. and Pathfinders? a godsend! plus with defense promotions/medic (not to mention encampments and UA bonus) they can be useful in war for a loooong time


the way this game works with early benefits snowballing in your favor, its hard for me to pick a civ that gets late bonuses (you can have your musketeers Napoleon) - so if youre lookin for a crutch to take on harder difficulties now, i'd say try one of those civs as well. Aztec + Authority is a freakin blast

I wonder if a diplomatic penalty could be applied for stealing workers and attacking civilian units of major civs in general. Similar to how liberating a civilian grants you a diplomatic bonus that I believe is stackable to a certain extent. If you think about from a realism point of view, killing soldiers is one thing, but killing (or enslaving) civilians is a much more inhumane course of action. It would also kinda (maybe) limit the cheese as there at least will be real penalties. They could be erased by liberating the same civ's units - like the warmonger score on a smaller scale.

As for city-states, maybe the already existing (and being about to be scrapped) disability to send diplomatic units could be applied to those CSs you've declared war on for a set amount of time, along with the current penalties for DOWing a CS. The latter right now are barely enough to stop anybody from stealing workers, and I personally think it's most certainly an exploit.

 

[PurpleMentat]

I wonder if a diplomatic penalty could be applied for stealing workers and attacking civilian units of major civs in general. Similar to how liberating a civilian grants you a diplomatic bonus that I believe is stackable to a certain extent. If you think about from a realism point of view, killing soldiers is one thing, but killing (or enslaving) civilians is a much more inhumane course of action. It would also kinda (maybe) limit the cheese as there at least will be real penalties. They could be erased by liberating the same civ's units - like the warmonger score on a smaller scale.

As for city-states, maybe the already existing (and being about to be scrapped) disability to send diplomatic units could be applied to those CSs you've declared war on for a set amount of time, along with the current penalties for DOWing a CS. The latter right now are barely enough to stop anybody from stealing workers, and I personally think it's most certainly an exploit.

I don't think this penalty should apply for the first, say, 200 turns of the game. Thematically, it only makes sense from a modern perspective. Slavery and forced labor have existed since the dawn of history. They have generally been seen as acceptable, and in many cases preferable to death on the battlefield. Slavery as a birthright was the horrid evil that almost split the United States in half.

The view of 'civilian' vs 'military' is also relatively modern. If you were able bodied, you fought to defend your home when you were called upon. AFAIK, only in the last few hundred years has the professional soldier become commonplace.

In my opinion, having civs and city-states take special exception to worker capture over killing combat units would be sacrificing theme for the purpose of gameplay balance or modern perspective. The latter should be avoided if possible, and the former does not seem necessary.

 

[PurpleMentat]

This has been a great thread for strategy advice. Let's keep them coming! New topic: what do you look for when you are settling a city? A capital? What situations do you take a look at and go "nah, I'm gonna reroll"?

 

[Strigvir]

Settle-able forest tile or egregiously tundra starts.

 

[Gamewizard]

I always settle my starting settler in place and never reroll. Sometimes I start in the middle of a forked desert river as Ghandi, sometimes I get river-less start in unforested tundra. Rerolling for the perfect start takes away the challenge that I'm looking for by playing the game in the first place.

 

[Strigvir]

Might as well delete your starting settler, because settling a city takes away the challenge.
Even AI civs, including city-states, move their settler if needed.

 

[callmewoof]

I don't have time to write up as much as I want right now but I wanted to chime in on stealing workers. In vanilla I used to do it all the time, but because of the CPD (dipo whatever mod) I don't. I took some pics in a game I played recently, but you too much value. If you leverage the different city states you end up with major bonuses. Plus, -50 influence takes two eternities to wear off. Yes, you can "spam diplos" but that isn't until later and costs gold, too much gold.

Diplo $cost in epic speed: 200g
Influence: 45 (?I think? 50? whatever)
Cost to unscrew yourself: 400g
Cost to alliance: 400-800g
Cost of a worker: 260g

Heck no. I say alliance because you can absolutely gain alliances early in the game and keep them if given the quests. That's the other reason - you can't pledge CS that hate you so you lose the bonus influence modifier, and hateful CS won't give you quests (or at least not for awhile or something). I'm just saying the opportunity cost blows chunks. One worker early game vs what, buying 2x Knights? Buying myself 2+ alliances? No. Just no. Edit: I've got a screenshot series I will setup later demonstrating the awesome advantage of playing nice.

The number one way in deity is to steal a worker from a civ, but even better, steal their settler. Sometimes it's escorted, sometimes the escort goes awry and you can snag. The easiest time is when you see the worker who is outside of both city range building that connecting road - you can usually snag him and get away easy-peasy.

Extremely early game wars are desirable, not because of the "oh I can peace out super quick" which sometimes you can't. They're great because you only get a bad rep with discovered Civs or ones they know(?). In other words, later in the game 8x Civs are going to hear the tales of my snatching a city and call me a warmonger (Shaka HATES warmongers! My latest game said that. SCREW YOU SHAKA OMGOMGOMG). But early on the reputation damage is minor with the civ itself, and can be zero with other civs.

If you ever see the chance to steal a settler, do it. At any cost. Denying them that city for a single unit's move is the absolute biggest blow you can give any AI. That destroys the turns they built it - turns that they have to repeat - turns that give the building city zero growth. Population is science, population is everything. I'd gladly delay my own buildings to raise troops of archers to withstand the revenge of the AI if it means their 3rd city doesn't exist.

Deadstarre was spot-on with his post, though I don't agree with the CS worker. Also to mention, when exploring you should pillage that road(s) tile outside their city boarder, the one connecting stuff. It delays them a little bit of all the things, plus it can draw out 1+ workers to come repair it (YOINK!).

(I think I lied about a short write-up)

Edit #2, sigh: I don't reroll hardly ever (screw you 9999x tundra tiles) but I never just assume to settle in place. Always move the warrior for the maximum value "fog busting" first, then estimate as best you can. You won't always know, but usually a resource you accidentally screwed yourself out of is just another one that your other cities will grab so it usually isn't crucial. Rules are always coast vs no coast when possible. Your capital is almost always your best production city and often your best trade route city. To settle one tile off the coast and pass up all those boats, nope. Always river vs not river, period. And when possible, I'd gladly give up a known tile in favor of being within 2 tiles of a mountain for the observatory.

 

[Cyberian]

I don't have time to write up as much as I want right now but I wanted to chime in on stealing workers. In vanilla I used to do it all the time, but because of the CPD (dipo whatever mod) I don't.

I never steal workers from CS but always from enemy Civs. That might have to do with me usually playing Continents Plus where CS are on islands but apart from that I think stealing workers from somewhere is a MUST on deity difficulty while you can do without on lower Diff.

Only did two games in CPB so far as I just came back to Civ5. My first game I won Immortal Huge Epic with Egypt.
Egypt start bias often has a flood plains desert start and often has lots of stone/marble in it. The CIV bonus is not the key here it is nice but what REALLY is strong early is the free stone works and the chariot archer. I did a very unconventional start with raging barbarians enabled and going for the Anti-Barb war policy.

That game I got the Petra through beelining and I also did some early wars with the chariot archers who are insanely strong in the desert as they can move two tiles and shoot with their 5 movement while normal units can never get to them as they can move only 1. As every unit killed got me culture, science and production (special perk for chariot archer that sucessfully upgrades) that really boosted everything.

Now I switched to Deity, Standard, Marathon on my second game. Playing Shoshone is OP yes I know but I did not want to make my first Deity game too hard while I still have to learn this patch.
I have to stress the importance of early Worker stealing and a few small wars in the early game.

So with Shoshone goody huts are key yes they are a bit exploity but fun. You start with one pathfinder and immediately queue up two more. The first or second hut you should boost production to get the second pathfinder out asap. Then whenever possible upgrade your Pathfinders to Composite Bowman. Also take culture when you can't upgrade. I did Progress for this game cause anything else its very hard for me to not be totally out-teched. Also progress benefits exponentially when you get it VERY early due to culture huts as then there is much early pop and early tech that gives you flat bonus. With the huts if you are lucky you can get 3 Comp. Bowmen. I could get only two but that was suffiient got my third hundreds of turn later though from a goodie hut on a far away island. Don't even hesitate to DOW someone and attack his scouts early with a bowman if that saves you a goody hut or two.

With two Composite Bowmen and the third Pathfinder after the goody huts were gone and some barb slaying I immediately DOWed on Zulu that was near. Defended a long time on hills and kept all three units together until I got March on both bowmen then went for the capital. Stole three workers I think, puppeted two cities including capital and annexed another one and razed one which gave me the space to breathe for mid game. Peace out for lots of money is important to help.
Don't go quiet then though. With money from capturing cities and peace deals buy spearmen or more workers or key buildings and whatever you need. What I like to go for is the early wonder that gives a free forge and I did so in this game too also got other wonders like Great Library, Oracle and Lighthouse later due to beefed up cities with almost ten workers and stuff like encampments, mines and caravans and the early forge that helps with the first Great Eng I think I did the Parthenon.

Its important to get one Friendship with at least one Civ so you can do gold trading but make war against the others on you continent while you still have the advantage of your Comp. Bowmen. Steal more workers and make more space and peace deals plus Experience for your units. Then currently I beelined for a very early University and currently going for Civil Service after not all AI are Medieval yet but the most important are. Identified the only AI that is ahead in points which is Genghis in my game on another Continent but reachable as only map size standard and DOWed on him with a navy of 4 Dromons and 1 Trireme all bought with money. Will use that to free 2 CS he conquered and take his capital with 4 wonders. Also trade some cities you take from the leading AI to some other AI that have fewer points making potential friends and money and weakening the leading AIs more.

Hopefully those tips are beneficial to some.

 

[Der_Zorn_gottes]

Short aside on worker stealing:

I have noted a few times that I declare war to fetch a worker/settler, and when I move my unit to capture, nothing happens. Both my unit and the worker/settler remain on the same hex. Usually the civilian will move away next turn, and then I can catch it.
Is this a CBC feature to prevent worker snagging or just a weird bug?

 

[PurpleMentat]

Short aside on worker stealing:

I have noted a few times that I declare war to fetch a worker/settler, and when I move my unit to capture, nothing happens. Both my unit and the worker/settler remain on the same hex. Usually the civilian will move away next turn, and then I can catch it.
Is this a CBC feature to prevent worker snagging or just a weird bug?

It's an issue with No Civilian Traffic Jams I believe. What I've found is that if I move onto the worker, and it pops up asking if this means war, and I accept, then I do not get the worker. However, if I declare war in advance through the diplomatic dialogue, then move onto the worker, I capture it.

 

[Der_Zorn_gottes]

Oh, very good to know, thank you.

Back on topic:

If you move up a difficulty, play a combination of map and civ that gives you a massive advantage, like Carthage on archipelago, Huns on great plains, Maya on boreal, ect... Once you have a feeling for the new difficulty, you can chose more moderate settings.

Another tip: Usually you should avoid to construct buildings you don`t need. However, in this mod, most buildings have explicit or implicit happiness boni. For example, crime is always one of the largest sources of unhappiness. So I find myself building walls in core cities, or barracks in cities that will never build a unit - just as happiness buildings.
Also, if you can, have you units in your cities. It will help a little bit with crime unhappiness.

 

[Deadstarre]

What I've found is that if I move onto the worker, and it pops up asking if this means war, and I accept, then I do not get the worker. However, if I declare war in advance through the diplomatic dialogue, then move onto the worker, I capture it.

This. and as its actually about 50/50 whether u get the worker or not, which seems buggy, im not ashamed to say i'll reload if i forgot to DOW before moving =)

 

[Gazebo]

It's an issue with No Civilian Traffic Jams I believe. What I've found is that if I move onto the worker, and it pops up asking if this means war, and I accept, then I do not get the worker. However, if I declare war in advance through the diplomatic dialogue, then move onto the worker, I capture it.

That's a NMCTJ element. The unit capture bool is processed before the DOW call, so the unit is still friendly when you DOW. I think it's fine – not really an easier way to deal with it.

G

 

[hokath]

Do what you were toying with and get rid of the DoW pop-up on move

 

[Gazebo]

Do what you were toying with and get rid of the DoW pop-up on move

Eh?

G

 

[hokath]

You suggested, a while back, that you might remove these position based DoW messages. Like when a unit on auto-explore tried to move into an enemy unit or borders. You thought it might be related to a CTD back in the ExCE crisis

 

[Gazebo]

You suggested, a while back, that you might remove these position based DoW messages. Like when a unit on auto-explore tried to move into an enemy unit or borders. You thought it might be related to a CTD back in the ExCE crisis

Gotcha - we fixed that issue, so I didn't pursue the popup issue again.

G

 

[Deadstarre]

Re: strategy i just remembered something else that maybe belonged in this thread. The first thing i do in every game is research pottery, and build a settler as soon as its complete, which often means doing it with 3 pop in my capitol but thats the minimum.

Im curious, is there anyone here who ever researches another tech first? to me, the opportunity cost of not getting my 2nd city founded as quickly as possible is worth any other sacrifice.

 

[Valvts]

Re: strategy i just remembered something else that maybe belonged in this thread. The first thing i do in every game is research pottery, and build a settler as soon as its complete, which often means doing it with 3 pop in my capitol but thats the minimum.

Im curious, is there anyone here who ever researches another tech first? to me, the opportunity cost of not getting my 2nd city founded as quickly as possible is worth any other sacrifice.

It depends if I am playing wide or tall.
Tall: Wait for almost all techs that reveal resources before putting a settler, Iron included, bananas excluded.
Wide: I research animal husbandry first and then poetry, trying to make a new settler at around 4-5 capital population.