Looking for advice moving up the difficulties

[Strigvir]

Im curious, is there anyone here who ever researches another tech first? to me, the opportunity cost of not getting my 2nd city founded as quickly as possible is worth any other sacrifice.

Progress doesn't need a second city until you take Code of Laws and so I tend to go Trapping+Pottery, Tradition can sit for a while without additional cities, so pottery can be even a 4th tech to research.

 

[callmewoof]

I almost never research pottery right away. I usually go for the wheel (if I'm gunning for something down that tree like Stonehenge or something in mathmatics etc), or Animal Husbandry or Trapping for Writing and revealing good tiles that my Capitol can work. By the time I'm 4-5 Pop I already have Pottery researched and am ready to build a settler. Anything sooner is too soon. (this is deity btw). Works for me, at least. And this is for all 3 Policy Trees, regardless.

 

[Forsti]

I almost never research pottery right away. I usually go for the wheel (if I'm gunning for something down that tree like Stonehenge or something in mathmatics etc), or Animal Husbandry or Trapping for Writing and revealing good tiles that my Capitol can work. By the time I'm 4-5 Pop I already have Pottery researched and am ready to build a settler. Anything sooner is too soon. (this is deity btw). Works for me, at least. And this is for all 3 Policy Trees, regardless.

First of all, thank you for your tips in this thread. Particularly the idea of an early DOW against a CIV whose settler I can see was an eye-opener as I'm trying to play on deity.

However, I find it quite strange that you suggest going for wheel as the first tech and I can't see a reason why to do so on deity. I have found it impossible to get stonehenge as AI seems to get it between the turns 20 and 27 in standard speed. With a perfect start I could probably make it in 27 turns but even then the risk of failing would be so massive that I could not even consider going for it. The benefit gained from the ability to build chariot archers and roads is practically non-existent in the first few turns, since you wont have another city or visible horse-tiles and I can't consider them a reason to go for wheel as the first tech.

The only reason why I'd go for wheel first is the access to the later techs, since I don't find anything in wheel that would help me from the beginning. The problem is, I could also go for either animal husbandry or pottery, since I'd need one of them too and also gain additional benefits in forms of revealed resources from animal husbandry or pretty much anything from pottery. Could you tell me, what I'm missing here? I usually play with 12 civs by the way, so bigger competition compared to the standard number of civs could be one reason why I have found it pretty much impossible to get stonehenge. Even then, I doubt I'd have the guts to go for stonehenge with a lower number of civs, as it would still be possible to see AI building it in turn 20 which I haven't found doable.

 

[DarkZero]

First of all, thank you for your tips in this thread. Particularly the idea of an early DOW against a CIV whose settler I can see was an eye-opener as I'm trying to play on deity.

However, I find it quite strange that you suggest going for wheel as the first tech and I can't see a reason why to do so on deity. I have found it impossible to get stonehenge as AI seems to get it between the turns 20 and 27 in standard speed. With a perfect start I could probably make it in 27 turns but even then the risk of failing would be so massive that I could not even consider going for it. The benefit gained from the ability to build chariot archers and roads is practically non-existent in the first few turns, since you wont have another city or visible horse-tiles and I can't consider them a reason to go for wheel as the first tech.

The only reason why I'd go for wheel first is the access to the later techs, since I don't find anything in wheel that would help me from the beginning. The problem is, I could also go for either animal husbandry or pottery, since I'd need one of them too and also gain additional benefits in forms of revealed resources from animal husbandry or pretty much anything from pottery. Could you tell me, what I'm missing here? I usually play with 12 civs by the way, so bigger competition compared to the standard number of civs could be one reason why I have found it pretty much impossible to get stonehenge. Even then, I doubt I'd have the guts to go for stonehenge with a lower number of civs, as it would still be possible to see AI building it in turn 20 which I haven't found doable.

Epic speed, min-maxing tiles and chopping a few forests/jungles, if that is not enough, stonehenge is a priority for faith based civs, so I found that by declaring war against those guys I can make them stop building the wonder for a while, a good bet are the 1st and 2nd top score ai civs, if you feel like it you can see who builds the wonder(if they beat you to it), load back and declare war on the specific civ.

The stonehenge is SUPER good because half the production from it you would have invested in the free shrine it provides, it pretty much grantees a religion, but the best thing is that the AI does not have it.

 

[skitter]

I disagree. I think rushing wheel into stonehenge is really weak. There are way too much things that have to be built ASAP - scout, monument and shrine, into a settler. Maybe a granary or worker, if there is wheat/deer and you failed to get a worker.

And besides, on this difficulty you need to have really good starting position tiles to beat the AI to it, since they start with a worker, and you're not opening animal husbandry/archery/mining to reveal resourses. So the AIs are pretty much always going to have better tiles, and they are always have more population than you to work them. Your only advantage is that you're skipping more pertinent buildings and techs to get maybe 6-8 turns earlier start. Even with Egypt, I'm not sure it's a good idea to rush wheel -> Stonehenge. The risk that at least one civ beats you to Stonehenge is too steep to be worth it.

 

[Deadstarre]

To me, stonehenge may as well not even exist- i just accept that i will never build this wonder on Deity. Gonna have to agree with Forsti/Skitter here =)

The first thing i always build in a game lately is the Shrine. Owing to that, you will get a pantheon early enough that if you're able to make proper use of it and find a way to boost your faith generation, you're guaranteed a religion as well, without any need of stonehenge. at least, thats how its been in my games- which have been varying between 9-11 AI players in them chosen from random

I've played a lot of Aztec (they don't even need a shrine, their UA guarantees you a religion if you go barb hunting with kickass jaguars) but lately i've been favoring more Shoshone and Egypt. It's worth noting that even though shoshone get to pick their ruins, you can't pick a ruin that gives you faith until you already have some faith stockpiled so don't think their pathfinders have been allowing me to get a religion =)

 

[DarkZero]

To me, stonehenge may as well not even exist- i just accept that i will never build this wonder on Deity. Gonna have to agree with Forsti/Skitter here =)

The first thing i always build in a game lately is the Shrine. Owing to that, you will get a pantheon early enough that if you're able to make proper use of it and find a way to boost your faith generation, you're guaranteed a religion as well, without any need of stonehenge. at least, thats how its been in my games- which have been varying between 9-11 AI players in them chosen from random

I've played a lot of Aztec (they don't even need a shrine, their UA guarantees you a religion if you go barb hunting with kickass jaguars) but lately i've been favoring more Shoshone and Egypt. It's worth noting that even though shoshone get to pick their ruins, you can't pick a ruin that gives you faith until you already have some faith stockpiled so don't think their pathfinders have been allowing me to get a religion =)

I can never get s religion on deity whit a single shrine, not even if I build it first, on epic speed getting stonehenge is doable, the one that gets it is usually the first one to get a religion, you can only get faith from ruins post turn 20.

To skitter: You get a scout while researching the wheel, can sometimes even get a monument, stonehenge gives a free shrine, I play on epic speed however, usually stealing an worker from and ai civ or buying a worker whit money from my scout.

 

[Deadstarre]

you can only get faith from ruins post turn 20.

oh is thats whats going on under the hood? i just build shrine first w shoshone anyway, i thought that was the reason i'd eventually get faith ruins.

the single shrine gets you a fairly timed pantheon that you need to make use of for much better faith generation, but i also have 3 early cities that help 1) make use of the pantheon 2) maybe build their own shrines quickly, if i think i need it. I make sure i get a religion, i just don't use stonehenge for it

pottery is my first research, and as soon as its done i pump out 2 settlers in a row. 3 cities with the pantheon on that kind of timing is i think what really gets me religion.

Before the sacred path nerf, that was all you needed- and to place your cities appropriately to make good use of it. now there will be a little more variance in the pantheon selection

Beating deity in vanilla had a very similar optimal strategy, except you needed to wait for 4pop in your cap before you pumped out settlers because of the way science per pop was calculated (half)- now, i just go for it with 3 pop =)

 

[Forsti]

Epic speed, min-maxing tiles and chopping a few forests/jungles

There is no way I can get bronze/iron working early enough to be able to boost the production of stonehenge by chopping down forests or jungles, at least on standard speed. I just tried another game and AI completed stonehenge on turn 22. To beat that, I'd need to get the wheel, mining and bronze working on turn 19 and have a worker waiting on a forest tile. Even if I got lucky with ruins and got mining for free, I doubt I could do it. Besides, I wouldn't base my strategy on getting lucky with ruins.

I already lock myself to the best tiles and have production focus, if that is what you mean by min-maxing tiles. I also don't see how playing on epic speed would help me compared to standard speed and as it takes me ages to complete a game even with standard speed, I don't see myself trying a slower version. I actually don't remember the last time I completed a game.

if that is not enough, stonehenge is a priority for faith based civs, so I found that by declaring war against those guys I can make them stop building the wonder for a while.

I doubt that would help. I'll only see a small minority of all civs during the first turns so declaring a war on one of them wouldn't really improve my chances to delay the completing of the wonder. On the other hand it would probably stop me from building it, as I'd either need to build units to stand my ground or suffer from having enemy troops swarming on my territory.

if you feel like it you can see who builds the wonder(if they beat you to it), load back and declare war on the specific civ.

Not really my cup of tea. I couldn't help feeling like a cheater after that.

 

[DarkZero]

There is no way I can get bronze/iron working early enough to be able to boost the production of stonehenge by chopping down forests or jungles, at least on standard speed. I just tried another game and AI completed stonehenge on turn 22. To beat that, I'd need to get the wheel, mining and bronze working on turn 19 and have a worker waiting on a forest tile. Even if I got lucky with ruins and got mining for free, I doubt I could do it. Besides, I wouldn't base my strategy on getting lucky with ruins.

I already lock myself to the best tiles and have production focus, if that is what you mean by min-maxing tiles. I also don't see how playing on epic speed would help me compared to standard speed and as it takes me ages to complete a game even with standard speed, I don't see myself trying a slower version. I actually don't remember the last time I completed a game.



I doubt that would help. I'll only see a small minority of all civs during the first turns so declaring a war on one of them wouldn't really improve my chances to delay the completing of the wonder. On the other hand it would probably stop me from building it, as I'd either need to build units to stand my ground or suffer from having enemy troops swarming on my territory.



Not really my cup of tea. I couldn't help feeling like a cheater after that.

You just admitted it yourself, epic speed civ is a very different beast than standard speed civ, my last game I believe stonehenge was completed turn 77( it is been a while so I might be a few turns off), I mostly play on epic speed because I like the long game and how unique units become much better, but that is the thing, build and tech speeds are increased in epic but unit movement remains the same, you can scout twice as much in epic compared to standard.

The declare war thing is a tip because unless it is Attila right next to you that you declare war on, no ai will ever send units your way that early in the game, especialy if there are civs in the way to you, you don't need any units to delay them and you can white peace pretty fast.

 

[callmewoof]

I should clarify that I only go for stonehenge if I have good city tiles. When you have Forest on Plains, you get 1F2P tiles. A wheat farm or marsh (3F) or other stuff can help balance out the food requirements, and I can get Stonehenge 95% of the time if I have these kinds of tiles. Otherwise if I'm food-heavy, I'll go for animal husbandry (hoping for pasture tiles) or mining (for stone or literally a mine or two). I guess the point is there is zero standard start (unlike Vanilla) and you should always tech accordingly.

And don't forget that the free building from some wonders are great because they are usually 50+% the cost of the wonder, so it's like getting a regular building (plus free maintenance) and a half-priced wonder.

 

[Forsti]

You just admitted it yourself, epic speed civ is a very different beast than standard speed civ, my last game I believe stonehenge was completed turn 77( it is been a while so I might be a few turns off)

Really? I tried twice playing with epic speed. The first time I had a perfect start with Egypt, starting next to an atoll tile and getting culture from ruins to get the progress opener. Right after that found a maritime city state, growing from 1 population to 3 in three turns and getting 60 science towards the wheel. The start was so powerful that had I wanted it, I would have had 5 population before the 2 different civs I had met had 4 population in their capitals. Well, I didn't want that but instead rushed for stonehenge and would have had it on turn 29. Instead, I looked and saw how long it would take from the AI to build it. Another civ finished it on turn 35.

I had another go, this time with Korea, as I wanted to see how a civ without bonuses could fare with the AI. The start wasn't as good as ruins didn't really give me anything useful and I only got faith from city states. I would have had my stonehenge ready on turn 39, but AI beat me to it on turn 25! Even with a nearly perfect start with a perfect civ to build the stonehenge it would have been impossible for me to make it in this game. There is no way it could take 77 turns for the AI to build stonehenge, unless you happen to face only civs that don't care about religion. Even then I wouldn't find it likely.

And we come back to my earlier point: I could not base my strategy on rushing for an early wonder that I wouldn't be likely to get. If I don't play with Egypt, I'd have to accept that most likely AI would beat me to it. In the likely case of failing, I'd have to either keep on starting over, which is a very cheap or just accept losing production from several early turns, which i could have used in a meaningful way, for example building a granary.

I can agree with the argument that changing the game pace makes a difference. I remember playing a version of CPP on summer or spring and trying both marathon and standard. Marathon was so much easier. A friend of mine also tried quick and had major problems, which he didn't have on standard pace. We concluded that the faster the pace is, the harder it gets. I guess it was because a human player could take a bigger advantage from moving his/her units. I'd also say that it is easier to build stonehenge on epic than standard, but after my two tests I just don't see that I could be likely enough to build it to ever try.

 

[DarkZero]

Really? I tried twice playing with epic speed. The first time I had a perfect start with Egypt, starting next to an atoll tile and getting culture from ruins to get the progress opener. Right after that found a maritime city state, growing from 1 population to 3 in three turns and getting 60 science towards the wheel. The start was so powerful that had I wanted it, I would have had 5 population before the 2 different civs I had met had 4 population in their capitals. Well, I didn't want that but instead rushed for stonehenge and would have had it on turn 29. Instead, I looked and saw how long it would take from the AI to build it. Another civ finished it on turn 35.

I had another go, this time with Korea, as I wanted to see how a civ without bonuses could fare with the AI. The start wasn't as good as ruins didn't really give me anything useful and I only got faith from city states. I would have had my stonehenge ready on turn 39, but AI beat me to it on turn 25! Even with a nearly perfect start with a perfect civ to build the stonehenge it would have been impossible for me to make it in this game. There is no way it could take 77 turns for the AI to build stonehenge, unless you happen to face only civs that don't care about religion. Even then I wouldn't find it likely.

And we come back to my earlier point: I could not base my strategy on rushing for an early wonder that I wouldn't be likely to get. If I don't play with Egypt, I'd have to accept that most likely AI would beat me to it. In the likely case of failing, I'd have to either keep on starting over, which is a very cheap or just accept losing production from several early turns, which i could have used in a meaningful way, for example building a granary.

I can agree with the argument that changing the game pace makes a difference. I remember playing a version of CPP on summer or spring and trying both marathon and standard. Marathon was so much easier. A friend of mine also tried quick and had major problems, which he didn't have on standard pace. We concluded that the faster the pace is, the harder it gets. I guess it was because a human player could take a bigger advantage from moving his/her units. I'd also say that it is easier to build stonehenge on epic than standard, but after my two tests I just don't see that I could be likely enough to build it to ever try.

I just checked my save game and it turns out the game I rushed the stonehenge I was playing on immortal whit the celts in the patch their UA got changed, from a quick look the difference between immortal and deity on the ai start is quite big, that explains the huge turn gap between wonder construction.
I don't think rushing stonehenge is a viable strategy for any but faith centered civs.
On quick he moving units is just a small thing, the real kick comes from the fact that you have less time to catch up whit the ai and every mistake or turn wasted matters a lot more.

 

[callmewoof]

Getting wonders on Deity isn't about how to get them, it's about getting what you want. You can't get them all, but you can get the ones you aim for. Later in the game you can mop up 100% of the wonders if you catch-up by the late Renaissance, but most of those wonders suck so it's not really a big deal.

I like epic speed because it feels like a good balance for how long your units matter. On quick for example, I sent a warrior out to a ruins I knew about from my Capitol, and by the time he reached it, the barbarian had upgraded to a Pikeman. Yeah it was about 20 turns away (because of bad terrain) and that's an extreme example, but it feels like your soldiers go to war as a Spearman and come home to Musketmen.

And personally, getting Stonehenge is always great on any civ (except India) because you can get extremely early pick at pantheons before the good ones are gone. I don't need a faith-based CIV to enjoy getting +culture and +faith from tiles, into +growth/production/whatever from buildings or beliefs, into money/science/whatever from spreading it. Yes, faith Civs benefit more, but you can always, always benefit from a pantheon. Even if you don't get a religion, choosing a pantheon that grants +Yields in your Capitol can give you dozens of turns granting you extra stuff until it gets replaced by someone's religion.

Worst case, you save up your Faith for a long time and buy some GP's down the road. That's always a bonus, no matter what.