T-hawk
Transcend
Take your turn, JMB. We can keep the roster in order rather than rushing all the turns ASAP. 
-
Civilization 7 has been announced. For more info please check the forum here .
Lotr5 -- Tactless Darius
- Thread starter Arathorn
- Start date
Great work guys! I certainly didn't think we'd do this well in the war against Germany...
50 ad - Change Persepolis from spearman to a settler. IBT, palace expansion.
70 ad - Cultural expansion at Konisburg brings some gems online. Lower lux rate to 20%. IBT, nothing.
90 ad - IBT, we learn the alphabet and begin researching writing (due in 12 turns at -8 gpt).
110 ad - IBT, nothing.
130 ad - IBT, nothing.
150 ad - IBT, nothing.
170 ad - Begin a granary in Konigsberg as a prebuild for a library.
190 ad - Not much. IBT, the Russian's begin Leo's workshop. Calcutta completes the Hanging Gardens.
210 ad - IBT, nothing.
230 ad - Found Tarsus up in the Tundra. IBT, nothing.
250 ad - Nothing much. Writing is due in 4 turns (at -12 gpt).
Here's the file: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/lotr5_250AD.zip
Have fun T-hawk!
JMB
50 ad - Change Persepolis from spearman to a settler. IBT, palace expansion.
70 ad - Cultural expansion at Konisburg brings some gems online. Lower lux rate to 20%. IBT, nothing.
90 ad - IBT, we learn the alphabet and begin researching writing (due in 12 turns at -8 gpt).
110 ad - IBT, nothing.
130 ad - IBT, nothing.
150 ad - IBT, nothing.
170 ad - Begin a granary in Konigsberg as a prebuild for a library.
190 ad - Not much. IBT, the Russian's begin Leo's workshop. Calcutta completes the Hanging Gardens.
210 ad - IBT, nothing.
230 ad - Found Tarsus up in the Tundra. IBT, nothing.
250 ad - Nothing much. Writing is due in 4 turns (at -12 gpt).
Here's the file: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/lotr5_250AD.zip
Have fun T-hawk!
JMB
T-hawk
Transcend
OK, got it, will play sometime today.
T-hawk
Transcend
Pre-turn:
We need a Forbidden Palace, somehow, somewhere. But only our original four cities have better than 50% corruption, plus Munich which is stuck at size 2 until Electricity (and no higher than 12 even then.)
Given that Munich is so stuck, and there are unused game and whale resources at the east coast, I'm going to put in one more city there. It looks ICSish, but it really is the best use of the land. I'd also like one more fishing village on the northwestern tip; two tiles away from Frankfurt, but both cities will be fishing villages that can't ever use more than two tundra tiles anyway so again it is the best use of the land.
Arbela, on the other hand, is ICSish; it redeems zero unused tiles except for water. I guess we can keep it, but I'll just build settlers out of it rather than buildings.
Anyways, back to the Forbidden Palace. There is no good solution, at all. Antioch at the former Berlin site has at least 80% corruption; even a courthouse won't get it back under 50%. Munich is the only decently situated city with decent shields, but it's stuck at size 2 of course. I guess the only choice really is Antioch, and somehow we'll have to get a courthouse there and pray for somehow swinging WLKTD. I put Antioch on the Forbidden Palace itself to prebuild for a courthouse (to make sure it doesn't accidentally build a temple and waste 60 shields.)
Research: Finishing Writing and then doing Literature is about the best course I can see. Just make sure to keep enough in the treasury for a one-off tech buy if anyone offers; that will probably be around 200-250 gold for the post-Writing techs judging by the Mysticism price.
==========
260 AD: Research time for Writing dropped by an extra turn; tapping F4 shows that Joanie has bought contact with us.
Between turns, Joanie calls us up!
She offers to sell us The Wheel for only 100 gold, which we gladly accept.
We have horses; three in fact. Some military production is changed to chariots for better mobility and possibly later upgrade.
270 AD: I merge a worker into Antioch, which reveals that it can in fact pull 2 shields per turn out of 6 total. It's not completely hopeless, but will still take a good while.
Writing finishes. Literature ordered up, but at one beaker for a little while to accumulate 200 gold for possible tech sale offers. This one-beaker run is not intended to run all the way to completion; change it once we accumulate some cash.
280 AD: Encouraged by the previous result, I merge three more workers into Antioch (hey, we've got _plenty_ considering our terrain is already 90% improved) and it reaches 3 shields/turn.
Temples whipped in Munich (hey, it's not growing anyway) and Liepzig (ditto.)
290 AD-350 AD: My two additional cities are founded. Nothing else happens.
AN OPTION, that I did not do but should be considered: merge five more workers into Antioch, and raise the lux tax as high as necessary to keep the city to ~2 specialists. This could get it up to about 18 shields before corruption and perhaps as many as 6 after, in which case it could put out the FP by itself in only about 30 turns from now. I think this is worthwhile given that it's 25ish turns until we could get Code of Laws by ourselves if nobody offers to sell it to us.
Disbanding Arbela soon, if we want to do that (I would if soloing - it really does feel ICS) would also push Antioch up the corruption sequence, and has a good chance of recovering an extra shield. This may be worthwhile in and of itself if it'd get the FP 6-8 turns sooner.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/lotr5-350ad.zip
We need a Forbidden Palace, somehow, somewhere. But only our original four cities have better than 50% corruption, plus Munich which is stuck at size 2 until Electricity (and no higher than 12 even then.)
Given that Munich is so stuck, and there are unused game and whale resources at the east coast, I'm going to put in one more city there. It looks ICSish, but it really is the best use of the land. I'd also like one more fishing village on the northwestern tip; two tiles away from Frankfurt, but both cities will be fishing villages that can't ever use more than two tundra tiles anyway so again it is the best use of the land.
Arbela, on the other hand, is ICSish; it redeems zero unused tiles except for water. I guess we can keep it, but I'll just build settlers out of it rather than buildings.
Anyways, back to the Forbidden Palace. There is no good solution, at all. Antioch at the former Berlin site has at least 80% corruption; even a courthouse won't get it back under 50%. Munich is the only decently situated city with decent shields, but it's stuck at size 2 of course. I guess the only choice really is Antioch, and somehow we'll have to get a courthouse there and pray for somehow swinging WLKTD. I put Antioch on the Forbidden Palace itself to prebuild for a courthouse (to make sure it doesn't accidentally build a temple and waste 60 shields.)
Research: Finishing Writing and then doing Literature is about the best course I can see. Just make sure to keep enough in the treasury for a one-off tech buy if anyone offers; that will probably be around 200-250 gold for the post-Writing techs judging by the Mysticism price.
==========
260 AD: Research time for Writing dropped by an extra turn; tapping F4 shows that Joanie has bought contact with us.
Between turns, Joanie calls us up!
She offers to sell us The Wheel for only 100 gold, which we gladly accept.We have horses; three in fact. Some military production is changed to chariots for better mobility and possibly later upgrade.
270 AD: I merge a worker into Antioch, which reveals that it can in fact pull 2 shields per turn out of 6 total. It's not completely hopeless, but will still take a good while.
Writing finishes. Literature ordered up, but at one beaker for a little while to accumulate 200 gold for possible tech sale offers. This one-beaker run is not intended to run all the way to completion; change it once we accumulate some cash.
280 AD: Encouraged by the previous result, I merge three more workers into Antioch (hey, we've got _plenty_ considering our terrain is already 90% improved) and it reaches 3 shields/turn.
Temples whipped in Munich (hey, it's not growing anyway) and Liepzig (ditto.)
290 AD-350 AD: My two additional cities are founded. Nothing else happens.
AN OPTION, that I did not do but should be considered: merge five more workers into Antioch, and raise the lux tax as high as necessary to keep the city to ~2 specialists. This could get it up to about 18 shields before corruption and perhaps as many as 6 after, in which case it could put out the FP by itself in only about 30 turns from now. I think this is worthwhile given that it's 25ish turns until we could get Code of Laws by ourselves if nobody offers to sell it to us.
Disbanding Arbela soon, if we want to do that (I would if soloing - it really does feel ICS) would also push Antioch up the corruption sequence, and has a good chance of recovering an extra shield. This may be worthwhile in and of itself if it'd get the FP 6-8 turns sooner.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/lotr5-350ad.zip
Charis
Realms Beyond
I agree with your analyses, and was also quite glad to see France come to us when she needed some cash. Perhaps we never see such offers in other games because we're almost never in a situation of being well behind in tech and ok on cash, just not buying any 
Antioch is 'da place', no doubt, and I like the idea of merging in enough workers to get more shields and perhaps WLTKD - a 30-40 turn natural FP build would be HUGE, especially as we've gone to the trouble of snagging TWO cores!
I don't "mind" if Arbela disappears, as it doesn't have much use as a city, though at the time it was I think firmly required to wage our war campaign. I'm still amazed though, that the thought of *one* dense city can in any way be likened to ICS. Truly the exploit discussions that have been going on are taking their toll (or 'having a positive impact' depending on what side of the fence one has taken ) I would tend myself to leave Arbela permanently on workers for finishing improvements and migration to sub-7 cities. When all cities are at max size for what their food will bear and everything improved, I would then disband Arbela with one last size-2 settler disband. Still, the improved benefits to corruption from seeing it gone sooner are worthwhile. Again, whatever action is taken on that city is fine by me - that's just my thoughts on it.
Arathorn - if he's back, then Gothmog then me again.
Good job,
Charis
Antioch is 'da place', no doubt, and I like the idea of merging in enough workers to get more shields and perhaps WLTKD - a 30-40 turn natural FP build would be HUGE, especially as we've gone to the trouble of snagging TWO cores!
I don't "mind" if Arbela disappears, as it doesn't have much use as a city, though at the time it was I think firmly required to wage our war campaign. I'm still amazed though, that the thought of *one* dense city can in any way be likened to ICS. Truly the exploit discussions that have been going on are taking their toll (or 'having a positive impact' depending on what side of the fence one has taken
) I would tend myself to leave Arbela permanently on workers for finishing improvements and migration to sub-7 cities. When all cities are at max size for what their food will bear and everything improved, I would then disband Arbela with one last size-2 settler disband. Still, the improved benefits to corruption from seeing it gone sooner are worthwhile. Again, whatever action is taken on that city is fine by me - that's just my thoughts on it.Arathorn - if he's back, then Gothmog then me again.
Good job,
Charis
T-hawk
Transcend
BTW, Antioch has no chance at WLTKD - it would need on the order of one entertainer per working citizen, which would leave it in food deficit. Merging further workers is probably a good idea, although it'll hit happiness problems pretty quickly; it's already running a tax collector at size 7 and 30% luxuries; it's only getting one happy face from lux tax and would need like two more sizes and 50% lux to get a second.
Not that I really want to pursue this debate, but IMHO Arbela was pretty much pure ICS. It meets Sirian's standard: there was no reason at all for its building other than pure density of cities, putting more tiles to work before even aqueducts. "*One* dense city" in space meant to hold only 3 cities sure can be ICS. But it's academic now.
Not that I really want to pursue this debate, but IMHO Arbela was pretty much pure ICS. It meets Sirian's standard: there was no reason at all for its building other than pure density of cities, putting more tiles to work before even aqueducts. "*One* dense city" in space meant to hold only 3 cities sure can be ICS. But it's academic now.
Charis
Realms Beyond
I didn't look at the map, so it wouldn't surprise me that it couldn't hit WLTKD and have sufficient food *and* have shields too
> Not that I really want to pursue this debate, but IMHO Arbela
> was pretty much pure ICS. It meets Sirian's standard: there
> was no reason at all for its building other than pure density of
> cities, putting more tiles to work before even
> aqueducts. "*One* dense city" in space meant to hold only 3
> cities sure can be ICS. But it's academic now.
Agreed that it's academic for this game, and I'll repeat I'm ok if someone ends up disbanding it (for corruption reduction reasons). But the issue as a whole is not acadmic. It has a huge impact on two things - decisions that are made in future SG games, and the enjoyment of this and similar games for the players. "Pure ICS"?? Sorry, as you know from my disdain for getting into discussions which have too high a chance of brining out arguments or worse, but I can't pass on this one.
ICS is "infinite city sprawl" It is the laying down of dozens or HUNDREDS of cities that do absolutely nothing but crank out cheap troops - each taking a long time but with a cumulative effect that is devestating. (Not to mention highly boring)
Laying down one dense city placement is absolutely and inarguably *NOT* infinite city sprawl.
"no reason at all for its building other than pure density of cities"
The density is a *TOTAL* non-issue. We needed a fourth city. Period. Any where, any way. If Germany had left me more room, I would have founded it further away. They did not, so as a consequence, not as a goal in itself, the city was laid down in a dense fashion, with the thought that after the island was ours it would be a candidate for removal -- if it made sense at the time (not for some dread over crossing the 'ICS' line)
Second point - any distaste that people have over a dense city because of full-scale ICS abuse, or because of recent discussions, leave some people pointing the finger at others or giving knee-jerk reactions based on an arbitrary 'rule' instead of evaluating each situation on its own merit. (I'm NOT, btw, saying you're doing that, I'm saying it leads to cries of foul from exploit police and/or players of less than stellar ability not able to understand the reasons behind actions, and instead judging on appearance.)
The questions to ask are purely situation dependent, and no set rule can answer them -
- Is this decision the right thing to do, tactically, in this game in this situation
- Will this decision in any way cheapen a win (should one arise), or will it lessen the fun for others involved in the game/epic
- Is the decision in line with or against the "theme" of the game
Finally, as Sirian has pointed out, there are additional burdens placed on a competition like series like the Epics to keep everyone on the same playing field. How does one keep the playing field even with other "tactless" leaders stuck on an island with a six-fold city deficit against Germany of all nations? It's a non-issue.
Pardon my 'going on' about this, and in truth, the comments are not aimed at T-Hawk, but rather express a big concern of mine that we're in danger of killing the fun of games not by the exploits we commit, but by the 'tainted' feeling that overburdening of rules or grey areas can induce.
Phew... I'll shuddup now
I can only hope I'm not making the situation worse.
Charis
> Not that I really want to pursue this debate, but IMHO Arbela
> was pretty much pure ICS. It meets Sirian's standard: there
> was no reason at all for its building other than pure density of
> cities, putting more tiles to work before even
> aqueducts. "*One* dense city" in space meant to hold only 3
> cities sure can be ICS. But it's academic now.
Agreed that it's academic for this game, and I'll repeat I'm ok if someone ends up disbanding it (for corruption reduction reasons). But the issue as a whole is not acadmic. It has a huge impact on two things - decisions that are made in future SG games, and the enjoyment of this and similar games for the players. "Pure ICS"?? Sorry, as you know from my disdain for getting into discussions which have too high a chance of brining out arguments or worse, but I can't pass on this one.
ICS is "infinite city sprawl" It is the laying down of dozens or HUNDREDS of cities that do absolutely nothing but crank out cheap troops - each taking a long time but with a cumulative effect that is devestating. (Not to mention highly boring
)Laying down one dense city placement is absolutely and inarguably *NOT* infinite city sprawl.
"no reason at all for its building other than pure density of cities"
The density is a *TOTAL* non-issue. We needed a fourth city. Period. Any where, any way. If Germany had left me more room, I would have founded it further away. They did not, so as a consequence, not as a goal in itself, the city was laid down in a dense fashion, with the thought that after the island was ours it would be a candidate for removal -- if it made sense at the time (not for some dread over crossing the 'ICS' line)
Second point - any distaste that people have over a dense city because of full-scale ICS abuse, or because of recent discussions, leave some people pointing the finger at others or giving knee-jerk reactions based on an arbitrary 'rule' instead of evaluating each situation on its own merit. (I'm NOT, btw, saying you're doing that, I'm saying it leads to cries of foul from exploit police and/or players of less than stellar ability not able to understand the reasons behind actions, and instead judging on appearance.)
The questions to ask are purely situation dependent, and no set rule can answer them -
- Is this decision the right thing to do, tactically, in this game in this situation
- Will this decision in any way cheapen a win (should one arise), or will it lessen the fun for others involved in the game/epic
- Is the decision in line with or against the "theme" of the game
Finally, as Sirian has pointed out, there are additional burdens placed on a competition like series like the Epics to keep everyone on the same playing field. How does one keep the playing field even with other "tactless" leaders stuck on an island with a six-fold city deficit against Germany of all nations? It's a non-issue.
Pardon my 'going on' about this, and in truth, the comments are not aimed at T-Hawk, but rather express a big concern of mine that we're in danger of killing the fun of games not by the exploits we commit, but by the 'tainted' feeling that overburdening of rules or grey areas can induce.
Phew... I'll shuddup now
I can only hope I'm not making the situation worse.Charis
I got it.
FWIW, I don't consider Arbela ICS at all. Heck, given time it could be a full-fledged fishing village, but I"m not sure that's it's best role.
Will look into the cash situation, increasing tech rate when approprite, FP in Antioch, and such things.
Arathorn
FWIW, I don't consider Arbela ICS at all. Heck, given time it could be a full-fledged fishing village, but I"m not sure that's it's best role.
Will look into the cash situation, increasing tech rate when approprite, FP in Antioch, and such things.
Arathorn
Wow, what a boring set of 10 turns. I didn't know such things were possible on deity level this late in the game. I guess the variant makes for interesting situations, which will hopefully make for some interesting decisions.
Highlights:
- 340 ad -- purchase horseback riding from Hannibal for 110 of our 111 gold (would cost much more than that to research it ourselves)
- 390 ad -- Wang Kon offers to trade territory maps. I agree and we get our first glimpse of the world around us.
- 430 ad -- Russians complete Leonardo's Workshop
I tried Arbela at different sizes, but it can't handle anything bigger than 8 without 50% lux taxes, which we can't afford. Looks like we're pretty stuck with 45 turns to the FP.
We're still min-science on Lit -- 23 turns to go. We're back up to 91 gold, but building costs are starting to hurt. Maybe we should sell some unneeded granaries, as I was merging in workers left and right to get towns as big as possible as fast as possible. We still have more workers than jobs -- and Arbela is making a worker every 3 or 4 turns just nicely.
I was also disbanding units in fringe cities to get their buildings down faster. We're pretty well set militarily until the AI civs get cavalry and we're still fighting with immortals and horsemen. That's tough. Catapults, if/when we get those, will help.
The only other wonder under construction is Sistine Chapel, so we're still not quite an age behind (but close).
Save game at http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/lotr5-450ad.zip
Gothmog is up. Charis is on deck.
Arathorn
Highlights:
- 340 ad -- purchase horseback riding from Hannibal for 110 of our 111 gold (would cost much more than that to research it ourselves)
- 390 ad -- Wang Kon offers to trade territory maps. I agree and we get our first glimpse of the world around us.
- 430 ad -- Russians complete Leonardo's Workshop
I tried Arbela at different sizes, but it can't handle anything bigger than 8 without 50% lux taxes, which we can't afford. Looks like we're pretty stuck with 45 turns to the FP.
We're still min-science on Lit -- 23 turns to go. We're back up to 91 gold, but building costs are starting to hurt. Maybe we should sell some unneeded granaries, as I was merging in workers left and right to get towns as big as possible as fast as possible. We still have more workers than jobs -- and Arbela is making a worker every 3 or 4 turns just nicely.
I was also disbanding units in fringe cities to get their buildings down faster. We're pretty well set militarily until the AI civs get cavalry and we're still fighting with immortals and horsemen. That's tough. Catapults, if/when we get those, will help.
The only other wonder under construction is Sistine Chapel, so we're still not quite an age behind (but close).
Save game at http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/lotr5-450ad.zip
Gothmog is up. Charis is on deck.
Arathorn
Gothmog
Dread Enforcer
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2002
- Messages
- 3,352
Hey, who says the AI lacks compassion? That's three techs for only 310 gold! not bad. I've actually had a tech or two gifted to me by the AI before when I was really really far behind in tech (back in the old fast tech patch I think).
On the topic of exploits: I have never participated in an epic, and don't know when I would be able to find the time. IMO, what we did was no exploit. I like to play a semi-intuitive style, good general knowlege of game mechanics, but I don't like to actually do calculations or use exploits. I have never used RoP rape and it wouldn't occur to me to unhook Iron just to build horses again for a Knight upgrade. It really just goes against my intuition to unhook a resource, even though it is a good move according to game mechanics. Again with ICS, it just wouldn't occur to me to build in such a dense pattern, unless the specific situation in the game called for it. The whole concept of exploit is really a interpersonal competitive one and upto now I have never played civ that way. As for Arbela, I would only disband it if it was causing significant corruption in better positioned cities.
'I got it'
I'll be building up our treasury to a couple hundred gp for tech buys and working on infrastructure. Some libraries and markets would be really nice some time soon. Fighting with immortals vs. cavalry doesn't worry me, it's the defending against them with spears that worries me.
On the topic of exploits: I have never participated in an epic, and don't know when I would be able to find the time. IMO, what we did was no exploit. I like to play a semi-intuitive style, good general knowlege of game mechanics, but I don't like to actually do calculations or use exploits. I have never used RoP rape and it wouldn't occur to me to unhook Iron just to build horses again for a Knight upgrade. It really just goes against my intuition to unhook a resource, even though it is a good move according to game mechanics. Again with ICS, it just wouldn't occur to me to build in such a dense pattern, unless the specific situation in the game called for it. The whole concept of exploit is really a interpersonal competitive one and upto now I have never played civ that way. As for Arbela, I would only disband it if it was causing significant corruption in better positioned cities.
'I got it'
I'll be building up our treasury to a couple hundred gp for tech buys and working on infrastructure. Some libraries and markets would be really nice some time soon. Fighting with immortals vs. cavalry doesn't worry me, it's the defending against them with spears that worries me.
Gothmog
Dread Enforcer
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2002
- Messages
- 3,352
OK, I look around. Still no upkeep costs but we're still building military too. We really need some good improvement for our core cities to build. Our growth curve has flattened since we are no longer building cities and don't have aquaducts yet. Korea has a little outpost to our south that is a potential future victim of ending up near us. They are about our size. I fiddle a bit and we can get lit in 11 turns at -10gpt. Not good enough, so I lower lux - then we can get it in 6 turns at -10gpt. Antioch will starve back to size 7, but so what. It will still pull the same 3 spt towards the FP and should be fine at 20% lux with 1 ent, based on what I see in other cities. That whole no great-leader thing is really hurting us now.
Click.
470 AD - put some cities on prebuilds for libraries due in 5.
480 AD (IT) - Russia demands and gets our TM.
500 AD (IT) - lit comes in, set to CoL in 13 at +7 spt.
530 AD (IT) - France gets Sistine. No visible cascade.
540 AD - CoL now 9 turns at +4 after a couple more libraries come in.
550 AD - My last turn. I left some workers active. See if you can figure out what to do with them. I know you'll think of something...
Have fun Charis.
The save.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/lotr5-550ad.zip
Click.
470 AD - put some cities on prebuilds for libraries due in 5.
480 AD (IT) - Russia demands and gets our TM.
500 AD (IT) - lit comes in, set to CoL in 13 at +7 spt.
530 AD (IT) - France gets Sistine. No visible cascade.
540 AD - CoL now 9 turns at +4 after a couple more libraries come in.
550 AD - My last turn. I left some workers active. See if you can figure out what to do with them. I know you'll think of something...
Have fun Charis.
The save.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/lotr5-550ad.zip
Charis
Realms Beyond
Charisarius, advisor to the tactless one, came again to power in 550AD. It was a time
of peace and relative prosperity, although the scientists of the land felt a little
bit 'backwards.' He wonders why on earth we would cave in to a civilization that
we can't even *see*. Being low in cash, our TM might be one of the few assets we
have to swing a deal. He also wonders why we're going after the more expensive
CoL rather than cheaper Philosophy. Still... this is likely tactless thinking, and
Gothmogarius is known for having more tact than the line of Charisarius!
In fact, looking at the histogram. Russia is the 'big bear' of this game, by far.
The tactless one here would LOVE for her to get distracted with ineffective trickle
landing on our shore vs immortals.
Our lands are very well improved, and our workers are ready for rails!
It's galling to look at a city building an FP using a clown, btw! There is some
bizarre effects going on in Antioch though, working two extra hills gives NO
more shields, and would take a ton of lux to cover the unhappiness. If it were not
for this, I would forgo research totally now, for 8 turns early on the FP would
catch us up almost right away for any lost ground, but that increase is just not to
be had. Also, I rather doubt self-research is best right now. It's totally outside
the normal realm of trading in this game to know, but I'm wondering if we kept
up single sci research and focused totally on economy if those offers for tech wouldn't
continue to pour in. I suppose the best action having put a lot of beakers into CoL
is to continue to research hard on that and Philo, then take a 40 turn run at Republic,
saving cash to buy the other ancient era techs.
[0] 550 - A few odd moves are done here by Charisarius. Hamburg, at 1 shield and not
growing, is whipped now with 12 turns left on temple because the expansion will
help more than the 8 shield inefficiency. Nuremburg too loses a few shields
to do a whip now. Also, it seems good to get their needed whippings in now,
instead of after they're productive in the FP zone. Konigsberg will oscillate tiles
to not let the iron mountain go to waste.
[1] 560 - The cities finishing temples start Libraries, aspiring to productivity in
the upcoming FP era.
[2] 570 - Gordium's temple is whipped.
[3] 580 - Tarsus' temple is whipped.
OMG if this isn't the saddess message I've yet seen this game... the Russians
are building... COPERNICUS! We're *SEVEN* techs away from getting out of the
ancient era!!!
[4] 590 - Russian galley seen off Perseopolis.
IBT - France puts Charisarius in the situation Gothmogarius was. The territory
map is demanded in tribute. While his inclination to say 'now' is very powerful,
France is commercial and will make the cheapest offers of tech to us. The deciding
factor is that there is nothing to gain at all in the war except a possible leader
fishing, since we couldn't demand techs. Knights vs Spears and Immortals vs
Musketeers. No thanks, have the map. The wisdom of Gothmogarius is revealed!
[5] 600 - A few half-whips toward libraries in the 1 shield no growth cities.
[6] 610 - Accelerated Code of Laws is finished (as is our bank acct ) Fortunately
our next key tech is the cheapest - Philosophy. Ah... courthouses! Once more
the wisdom of our previous leader shines through!
Just as our free settler reaches the spot NW of Antioch, the large culture gap
disappears due to expansions, and I'm freed from laying down a cramped city near
Antioch. I'll leave the settler and a guardian sitting there in case you want an
extra city around Antioch.
[7] 620 - Should cities get going on courthouses? The high shields and uncertainty as to
which will need them post-FP suggests we let libraries finish first.
The map suggests Nuremburg will need one for sure, so it swaps.
[8] 630 - Not much... [9] 640 - ...
[10] 650 - We have exactly the right beakers to finish Philosophy in 6 turns,
with treasury 1g+1gpt using 1 scientist supplement. After that, see if Republic
is cheap enough to self-research in less than about 20, or if it's slow enough
to build up cash for purchases while getting it in 40. I'm guessing we
probably couldn't even beat 35 turns without a deficit, so 40 will work.
Revolution will be key asap after that, although the large number of MP units
and no marketplaces, make Monarchy the better *short* term solution. (Low lux too)
FP due in 25... which makes it imperative that we not revolt in about 23
We're *just* at or one away from our unit limit. After that, send any horses
made at Perse to a corrupt city for disbanding.
In the year 650, news of the excessive and unwise whipping in the reign of Charisarius
is exposed to all, and he is deposed of power, kicking and screaming.
Save game 650 AD
Good luck, (JMB, then T-Hawk)
Charis
of peace and relative prosperity, although the scientists of the land felt a little
bit 'backwards.' He wonders why on earth we would cave in to a civilization that
we can't even *see*. Being low in cash, our TM might be one of the few assets we
have to swing a deal. He also wonders why we're going after the more expensive
CoL rather than cheaper Philosophy. Still... this is likely tactless thinking, and
Gothmogarius is known for having more tact than the line of Charisarius!
In fact, looking at the histogram. Russia is the 'big bear' of this game, by far.
The tactless one here would LOVE for her to get distracted with ineffective trickle
landing on our shore vs immortals.
Our lands are very well improved, and our workers are ready for rails!
It's galling to look at a city building an FP using a clown, btw! There is some
bizarre effects going on in Antioch though, working two extra hills gives NO
more shields, and would take a ton of lux to cover the unhappiness. If it were not
for this, I would forgo research totally now, for 8 turns early on the FP would
catch us up almost right away for any lost ground, but that increase is just not to
be had. Also, I rather doubt self-research is best right now. It's totally outside
the normal realm of trading in this game to know, but I'm wondering if we kept
up single sci research and focused totally on economy if those offers for tech wouldn't
continue to pour in. I suppose the best action having put a lot of beakers into CoL
is to continue to research hard on that and Philo, then take a 40 turn run at Republic,
saving cash to buy the other ancient era techs.
[0] 550 - A few odd moves are done here by Charisarius. Hamburg, at 1 shield and not
growing, is whipped now with 12 turns left on temple because the expansion will
help more than the 8 shield inefficiency. Nuremburg too loses a few shields
to do a whip now. Also, it seems good to get their needed whippings in now,
instead of after they're productive in the FP zone. Konigsberg will oscillate tiles
to not let the iron mountain go to waste.
[1] 560 - The cities finishing temples start Libraries, aspiring to productivity in
the upcoming FP era.
[2] 570 - Gordium's temple is whipped.
[3] 580 - Tarsus' temple is whipped.
OMG if this isn't the saddess message I've yet seen this game... the Russians
are building... COPERNICUS! We're *SEVEN* techs away from getting out of the
ancient era!!!
[4] 590 - Russian galley seen off Perseopolis.
IBT - France puts Charisarius in the situation Gothmogarius was. The territory
map is demanded in tribute. While his inclination to say 'now' is very powerful,
France is commercial and will make the cheapest offers of tech to us. The deciding
factor is that there is nothing to gain at all in the war except a possible leader
fishing, since we couldn't demand techs. Knights vs Spears and Immortals vs
Musketeers. No thanks, have the map. The wisdom of Gothmogarius is revealed!
[5] 600 - A few half-whips toward libraries in the 1 shield no growth cities.
[6] 610 - Accelerated Code of Laws is finished (as is our bank acct
) Fortunately our next key tech is the cheapest - Philosophy. Ah... courthouses! Once more
the wisdom of our previous leader shines through!
Just as our free settler reaches the spot NW of Antioch, the large culture gap
disappears due to expansions, and I'm freed from laying down a cramped city near
Antioch. I'll leave the settler and a guardian sitting there in case you want an
extra city around Antioch.
[7] 620 - Should cities get going on courthouses? The high shields and uncertainty as to
which will need them post-FP suggests we let libraries finish first.
The map suggests Nuremburg will need one for sure, so it swaps.
[8] 630 - Not much... [9] 640 - ...
[10] 650 - We have exactly the right beakers to finish Philosophy in 6 turns,
with treasury 1g+1gpt using 1 scientist supplement. After that, see if Republic
is cheap enough to self-research in less than about 20, or if it's slow enough
to build up cash for purchases while getting it in 40. I'm guessing we
probably couldn't even beat 35 turns without a deficit, so 40 will work.
Revolution will be key asap after that, although the large number of MP units
and no marketplaces, make Monarchy the better *short* term solution. (Low lux too)
FP due in 25... which makes it imperative that we not revolt in about 23
We're *just* at or one away from our unit limit. After that, send any horses
made at Perse to a corrupt city for disbanding.
In the year 650, news of the excessive and unwise whipping in the reign of Charisarius
is exposed to all, and he is deposed of power, kicking and screaming.
Save game 650 AD
Good luck, (JMB, then T-Hawk)
Charis
Gothmog
Dread Enforcer
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2002
- Messages
- 3,352
Yes, I was all set to rebut some of your initial comments but I see you have done the job for me. Thanks 
I am looking at this game as very close to AW. If we go to war with Russia or whoever, we cannot initiate peace... ever. It would take the slaughter of many AI landings to bring them to the table. Might be some rifles landing before too long. Also with regard to techs. We cannot count on the AI to trade us techs frequently, and certainly not to get us upto par. They will keep us 8-10 back I would think.
I actually considered building MM after lit to get harbors and boats. Harbors would allow some of our tundra/fishing villages to grow and boats would allow us to explore, but due to corruption and the fact that MM is not on the Republic line I chose CoL. Courthouses will be great for us now and in the future. We're running about 50% corruption at the moment. The deciding factor for me was simply needing something else to build in our core. We couldn't continue with horses due to upkeep costs.
I am looking at this game as very close to AW. If we go to war with Russia or whoever, we cannot initiate peace... ever. It would take the slaughter of many AI landings to bring them to the table. Might be some rifles landing before too long. Also with regard to techs. We cannot count on the AI to trade us techs frequently, and certainly not to get us upto par. They will keep us 8-10 back I would think.
I actually considered building MM after lit to get harbors and boats. Harbors would allow some of our tundra/fishing villages to grow and boats would allow us to explore, but due to corruption and the fact that MM is not on the Republic line I chose CoL. Courthouses will be great for us now and in the future. We're running about 50% corruption at the moment. The deciding factor for me was simply needing something else to build in our core. We couldn't continue with horses due to upkeep costs.
We have many more units than we need for MP. Right now, they're not serving much other purpose. I was using them as shield transfers, to try to get outlying cities up to speed. Each horse you disband is worth 7 shields in the new city, potentially very worthwhile to help speed a library towards completion. If an AI attacks us, we have enough forces on hand, I believe, to fight them off for a while, while we actually make more.
I see us as being in the really odd position of being shield rich and commerce poor. Wealth is a really poor way of trying to increase commerce with shields, but using unit disbands to build commerce-increasing buildings (libraries, courthouses) makes a lot of sense to me.
I don't really fear invasion at this point. I've won MDI vs. musket wars and mounted warriors vs. rifle/cossack island landings. I do fear getting so far behind in tech, though, that the AI will launch while we're still trying to figure out why some metals attract each other....
A government change and boats are both very pressing. Meanwhile, the AI civs are learning to sail across oceans....
A desperation GL capture attempt might come into play at some point. 10 boatloads of immortals are a reasonably significant force, if it comes to that. Just something to keep in mind.
We're not religious. We want to revolt to Republic right away, I think. We can disband 25 units for a few shields to save on upkeep costs then. Even at 30% lux, Republic has to be the way to go, I believe. We're desperate for the commerce bonus.
Just my opinions,
Arathorn
I see us as being in the really odd position of being shield rich and commerce poor. Wealth is a really poor way of trying to increase commerce with shields, but using unit disbands to build commerce-increasing buildings (libraries, courthouses) makes a lot of sense to me.
I don't really fear invasion at this point. I've won MDI vs. musket wars and mounted warriors vs. rifle/cossack island landings. I do fear getting so far behind in tech, though, that the AI will launch while we're still trying to figure out why some metals attract each other....
A government change and boats are both very pressing. Meanwhile, the AI civs are learning to sail across oceans....
A desperation GL capture attempt might come into play at some point. 10 boatloads of immortals are a reasonably significant force, if it comes to that. Just something to keep in mind.
We're not religious. We want to revolt to Republic right away, I think. We can disband 25 units for a few shields to save on upkeep costs then. Even at 30% lux, Republic has to be the way to go, I believe. We're desperate for the commerce bonus.
Just my opinions,
Arathorn
0 - Nothing much to do. IBT, nothing. This is really weird not being able to do anything diplomatic...
1 - Nothing much. IBT, nothing.
2 - Disband a horseman in Bactra to speed the temple. IBT, nothing.
3 - Not much.
4 - Not much. I decide to disband a bunch of our horsemen in Konigsberg to speed the courthouse. I was going to use them to speed libraries, but the upkeep costs would drain our treasury (as it is, the horseman I used in Bactra to spped up the temple, has resulted in us having a -2 gpt deficit and we have 2 gold left...) I chose Konigsburg, because I think we actually stand a chance of getting some more commerce, and shields, out of it. IBT, the Russians are building Newton's University!!
5 - We can't get philosophy this turn without going bankrupt. I decrease the science rate. Fortunately, this has only resulted in a 1 turn delay. Disband several more horsemen. Change Pasa from a courthouse to a horseman (it is only losing 1 shield and 1 gold per turn and the courthouse would cost more gold (or at least as much) in upkeep than we'd gain...)
6 - Disband a couple more horsemen in Konigsberg. The courthouse will complete next turn.
7 - Decide to move the scientist in Nuremberg to one of our totally corrupt tundra cities (Frankfurt). We are not even close to being able to research republic (all of our buildings are hurting our economy...) and are better off going the 1 scientist route than with 10% science funding. IBT, Russia completes Copernicus's Observatory.
8 - Change Hamburg from Library to a courthouse. We have plenty of libraries and if we can't hold onto more of our income, the libraries won't do us much good. Ditto with Tarsus.
9 - Not much. IBT, Carthage requests an audience. Offering his TM for ours and 3 gold. We agree. Ouch. Hannibal is doing just about as badly as us! He only has 3 cities!!
10 - Not much. I've been disbanding so many of our horsemen and chariots, that we currently have none. Should anyone decide to declare war on us, we will have enough time to build several. Our FP will complete in 15 turns. I think our lands are completely improved, which is why our workers are sleeping in the fields. Republic is due in 37 turns.
There really isn't much to do right now. Hopefully once we accumulate a bit more cash, the AIs will begin to offer us tech trades...
Here's the save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/lotr5_750AD.zip
JMB
1 - Nothing much. IBT, nothing.
2 - Disband a horseman in Bactra to speed the temple. IBT, nothing.
3 - Not much.
4 - Not much. I decide to disband a bunch of our horsemen in Konigsberg to speed the courthouse. I was going to use them to speed libraries, but the upkeep costs would drain our treasury (as it is, the horseman I used in Bactra to spped up the temple, has resulted in us having a -2 gpt deficit and we have 2 gold left...) I chose Konigsburg, because I think we actually stand a chance of getting some more commerce, and shields, out of it. IBT, the Russians are building Newton's University!!
5 - We can't get philosophy this turn without going bankrupt. I decrease the science rate. Fortunately, this has only resulted in a 1 turn delay. Disband several more horsemen. Change Pasa from a courthouse to a horseman (it is only losing 1 shield and 1 gold per turn and the courthouse would cost more gold (or at least as much) in upkeep than we'd gain...)
6 - Disband a couple more horsemen in Konigsberg. The courthouse will complete next turn.
7 - Decide to move the scientist in Nuremberg to one of our totally corrupt tundra cities (Frankfurt). We are not even close to being able to research republic (all of our buildings are hurting our economy...) and are better off going the 1 scientist route than with 10% science funding. IBT, Russia completes Copernicus's Observatory.
8 - Change Hamburg from Library to a courthouse. We have plenty of libraries and if we can't hold onto more of our income, the libraries won't do us much good. Ditto with Tarsus.
9 - Not much. IBT, Carthage requests an audience. Offering his TM for ours and 3 gold. We agree. Ouch. Hannibal is doing just about as badly as us! He only has 3 cities!!
10 - Not much. I've been disbanding so many of our horsemen and chariots, that we currently have none. Should anyone decide to declare war on us, we will have enough time to build several. Our FP will complete in 15 turns. I think our lands are completely improved, which is why our workers are sleeping in the fields. Republic is due in 37 turns.
There really isn't much to do right now. Hopefully once we accumulate a bit more cash, the AIs will begin to offer us tech trades...
Here's the save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/lotr5_750AD.zip
JMB
T-hawk
Transcend
I see it. I'm away for the weekend, though, and will have a bit of a feast to get through tonight and tomorrow.
T-hawk
Transcend
Ugh. Sorry again for the delay, folks. I've got it and am playing now, though.
I'll go to any length of worker merges and lux tax necessary to speed that FP, since it'll more than pay for itself in recovering time to research Republic (we can do it much faster than the minimum with an FP, I'm sure.)
I'll go to any length of worker merges and lux tax necessary to speed that FP, since it'll more than pay for itself in recovering time to research Republic (we can do it much faster than the minimum with an FP, I'm sure.)
T-hawk
Transcend
Let's mathematically analyze Antioch:
Our fourth shield comes if we can produce 14/turn before waste. We will get a third uncorrupted commerce that could be turned into a lux tax happy face at 10 commerce/turn, and a fourth at 14 commerce. The city cannot run more than one entertainer, or it will starve.
Size 7: 6 laborers can produce 12(3) shields and 8(2) commerce.
Size 8: 7 laborers can produce 13(3) shields and 9(2) commerce.
Size 9: 8 laborers can produce 14(4) shields and 10(3) commerce.
Size 10: 9 laborers can produce 15(4) shields and 11(3) commerce.
Size 9 looks like a good target. It would require two happy faces from lux tax; at 3 commerce that's 50% lux tax. I think speeding the FP by three turns (and Republic by more than that later) will recover 12 turns times 20 gold income. Two workers merge into Antioch and lux tax goes to 50%.
Antioch should have had a courthouse done first, not for the shields which would be a breakeven for time to FP, but because doing so would let it recover much more commerce, getting about twice as many lux-tax happy faces and letting it work at a size larger than 7. Oh well; we wouldn't have realized that ahead of time anyway.
To avoid bankruptcy, I assign some cities to commerce tiles like gold mines and water, and also put Persepolis' entertainer (needed at 20% lux tax but not 50%) back to work. I also sell a few barracks in cities that are obviously not producing units and hire a couple tax collectors to stave off bankruptcy. Two workers head for Nuremberg; merging them will get a water tile and gold mine into operation.
==========
780 AD: Nuremberg's courthouse is whipped, getting us 3 gold away from a balanced budget.
800 AD: In the boredom, I start checking out the possibility of a desperation Great Library capture. It's in Carthage city, which we have on our map and is only about 12 tiles away from our island. The only problem is that it looks likely to require ocean navigation to get there, and you can't get even sea navigation without getting Education yourself.
820 AD: Russia demands Territory Map and 15 gold. I think we, uh, better pay.
The French start Smith's Trading Company.
830 AD: Unfortunately, Russia's little stunt wrecked my financial plans. I hate to do it, but a couple temples in cities that have already expanded borders and have no hope of growing anytime soon get sold.
850 AD: I decide to go two turns over, to get that Forbidden Palace completed and take a look at arranging cities, build orders, economy, and research, so that something will HAPPEN to make up for my delay in getting to the game.
Russia COMPLETES Newton's University. A peek at F4 shows Cathy, but only her, into the Industrial Age.
860 AD: I hit End Turn...
870 AD: and we have a Forbidden Palace!
Income jumps from -3 before that to +15 after that to +40 once lux tax goes back down to 20%. Republic, however, cannot come in more than the minimum even at 100% science, so let's leave it at that and accumulate cash for tech buys. The lone scientist is in Persepolis which needs two specialists back on 20% lux tax.
I go through the cities and optimize for happiness and build order. Since we won't need libraries for another 25 turns, most of the courthouse build orders are left there as prebuilds for harbors in hopes somebody offers to sell us Map Making sometime soon. Antioch is on temple for the happiness factor; it'll need it to grow past size 9.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/lotr5-870ad.zip
Our fourth shield comes if we can produce 14/turn before waste. We will get a third uncorrupted commerce that could be turned into a lux tax happy face at 10 commerce/turn, and a fourth at 14 commerce. The city cannot run more than one entertainer, or it will starve.
Size 7: 6 laborers can produce 12(3) shields and 8(2) commerce.
Size 8: 7 laborers can produce 13(3) shields and 9(2) commerce.
Size 9: 8 laborers can produce 14(4) shields and 10(3) commerce.
Size 10: 9 laborers can produce 15(4) shields and 11(3) commerce.
Size 9 looks like a good target. It would require two happy faces from lux tax; at 3 commerce that's 50% lux tax. I think speeding the FP by three turns (and Republic by more than that later) will recover 12 turns times 20 gold income. Two workers merge into Antioch and lux tax goes to 50%.
Antioch should have had a courthouse done first, not for the shields which would be a breakeven for time to FP, but because doing so would let it recover much more commerce, getting about twice as many lux-tax happy faces and letting it work at a size larger than 7. Oh well; we wouldn't have realized that ahead of time anyway.
To avoid bankruptcy, I assign some cities to commerce tiles like gold mines and water, and also put Persepolis' entertainer (needed at 20% lux tax but not 50%) back to work. I also sell a few barracks in cities that are obviously not producing units and hire a couple tax collectors to stave off bankruptcy. Two workers head for Nuremberg; merging them will get a water tile and gold mine into operation.
==========
780 AD: Nuremberg's courthouse is whipped, getting us 3 gold away from a balanced budget.
800 AD: In the boredom, I start checking out the possibility of a desperation Great Library capture. It's in Carthage city, which we have on our map and is only about 12 tiles away from our island. The only problem is that it looks likely to require ocean navigation to get there, and you can't get even sea navigation without getting Education yourself.
820 AD: Russia demands Territory Map and 15 gold. I think we, uh, better pay.
The French start Smith's Trading Company.
830 AD: Unfortunately, Russia's little stunt wrecked my financial plans. I hate to do it, but a couple temples in cities that have already expanded borders and have no hope of growing anytime soon get sold.
850 AD: I decide to go two turns over, to get that Forbidden Palace completed and take a look at arranging cities, build orders, economy, and research, so that something will HAPPEN to make up for my delay in getting to the game.
Russia COMPLETES Newton's University. A peek at F4 shows Cathy, but only her, into the Industrial Age.
860 AD: I hit End Turn...
870 AD: and we have a Forbidden Palace!
Income jumps from -3 before that to +15 after that to +40 once lux tax goes back down to 20%. Republic, however, cannot come in more than the minimum even at 100% science, so let's leave it at that and accumulate cash for tech buys. The lone scientist is in Persepolis which needs two specialists back on 20% lux tax.
I go through the cities and optimize for happiness and build order. Since we won't need libraries for another 25 turns, most of the courthouse build orders are left there as prebuilds for harbors in hopes somebody offers to sell us Map Making sometime soon. Antioch is on temple for the happiness factor; it'll need it to grow past size 9.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/lotr5-870ad.zip
I'm up, see it, and will play ASAP. Might be tonight, might not be. It all depends.
This is shaping up even harder than I'd expected. No commerce bonus from rivers and the AIs all trading is making us really hurting. We can't even declare war to get them distracted on unit creation.
Arathorn
This is shaping up even harder than I'd expected. No commerce bonus from rivers and the AIs all trading is making us really hurting. We can't even declare war to get them distracted on unit creation.
Arathorn
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