Love it or hate it: The Great Library

What do you think about the GL?

  • I love it!

    Votes: 25 35.7%
  • I like it and build it when I can

    Votes: 16 22.9%
  • I build it if there's nothing else to do

    Votes: 12 17.1%
  • I let the AI build it and capture it over

    Votes: 6 8.6%
  • I hate it

    Votes: 11 15.7%

  • Total voters
    70
To me, The Great Library has kind of a Love/Hate kind of thing.

I like the Great Library when I build it :D

I hate the Great Library when another Civ Builds it :mad:
 
Originally posted by CivGeneral
I like the Great Library when I build it :D

I hate the Great Library when another Civ Builds it :mad:

That's the same as me!
 
It used to be the very first wonder I would try to build when I started playing Civ II. Now the first I try to complete would be Pyramids. If I can build the GL, I do. But I don't sweat not having it.
 
Rubbish, people are all full of themselves and write things like "only the middle players like it blah blah, I, on the other hand, am a great player and say it stinks" hehe
Guess what? at some time during the game you get warrior code, fuedalism too. Point being whenever you get it your beaker cost goes up.
I, on the other hand, being an expert player, announce that SSC is for mediocre players. Players that can't handle science on a wholesale scale. They can only manage it good in one city, anything more and the game becomes too complicated for all but the best players. :P
 
Well i'm new to the game and build it most times. but the times i've missed it, it doesn't seem to make much difference. i still get my spaceship landed first even if im not first to launch. so i'm rethinking my priorities.
 
Originally posted by ArmOrAttAk
Rubbish, people are all full of themselves and write things like "only the middle players like it blah blah, I, on the other hand, am a great player and say it stinks" hehe
Guess what? at some time during the game you get warrior code, fuedalism too. Point being whenever you get it your beaker cost
Well, some of us don't like the GL, yet remain humble. :p It is unwanted because the increase in beaker cost in 500bc is much more detrimental than getting it in 1500ad. By then you can absorb it without even noticing. Your army doesn't need every unit, so it makes things like archers expendable.

IIRC, it's possible to build SS parts without ever researching warrior code... Samson at Apolyton, in his super early landing game (76ad), didn't acquire until he had already built Apollo's, iirc.

I say *yawn* to the GL.
 
Personally, I like the GL. :love: It mostly gives me the techs I want to get, but don't want to research. Maybe it slows down a little, but I don't use to experience that. Read my post THE BEST WAY TO RULE THE WORLD and you'll understand why.:goodjob:
 
I’m going to take the liberty and extend Xin Yu’s thoughts regarding the Pyramids to here: it depends. The value of any Wonder is relative to some extent, where some will show greater value under certain circumstances, to certain players, enough to justify construction, enough to justify sacrifice.

In the case of the Great Library, I’m glad that expert players have advanced to a point where the relative value of this Wonder is less. For a middling player or a newbie, would your ranking be the same? In fact, what three points of advice should given first for a newbie? What priorities of Wonders should be recommended for someone challenged at the Warlord level? Would that ranking be the same for someone challenged at the emperor level? Would that list be the same for someone seeking play at the deity +1 level? Personally, I think that the rankings should change, so I qualify my recommendations (especially when targeted to a certain audience) recognizing that I still have a lot to learn at this game.
 
Ah yes Old n Slow made that remark i was referring to. Not a self proclaimed expert labeling disenters mediocre hm. In my defense I'd like to say that I'm a game freak. Civ2 was the first game ever bought for my cpu. I still play it. Being a game freak means that when I get ahold of a game I like, I play it constantly. I play it sideways, upside down, all day long, all night long, read the manual over and over, buy the hint book, read that over and over, buy magazines that say anything about it, search for it online, dream about it, daydream about it, when I'm not playing or reading about it I'm thinking up new strategies for it. The height of my dubious addiction one time I played quake for over 24 hours nonstop :( cut school, cut work, cut food, neglect my family -sigh-

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is. It's insulting to put so much time into this game, to have someone state that i'm just a middle player because I like the GL. I can play without it, I can play with my eyes closed AND my hands tied(and win diety +infinity ;)) That's like me saying.. ah he's old can't be more than a medicore player, can't teach an old dog new tricks, etc.
Generalizing is bad or something.
Why exactly are you "glad that expert players have advanced to a point where the relative value of this Wonder is less."? (not all have :P) please tell. I'm usually glad when an expert player makes a mistake in our game....

Well I have nothing against you Old n Snow. Don't think I'm attacking you -just spouting- We all know how judgemental -old- people can be :P
 
ArmOrAttAk -- I’m one of the GL lovers as well, so if I’m “insulting” you then I guess I’m “insulting” me as well. I’m impressed that you have the intensity to focus so deeply and drill for results. I tend to skim lightly and not commit past an 80-90% threshold of work. I tend to take my efficiency gains via effort minimization.

As far as my being an old dog, yeah it does take longer to unlearn bad (prince level) habits & replace them with better ones. So I am slowly going through my lessons (current lesson is to log the games, next lesson is to build more extensively as an attitude), with the goal to be somewhat more competitive. After a couple of months of reading, I attempted the GOTM, and seem to be improving (but maybe not this month -- we’ll see). The games are interesting, and the logs and comments are more enjoyable when you’ve had the chance to see the same situation first hand.

Rather than being labeled judgmental, I’d rather be labeled observant. :scan: Clue #1 -- Authors of works in the War Academy and Winners of the GOTM might be described as experts. :scan: Clue #2: When I see authors of parts of the War Academy (Sodak) and winners of the GOTM (Starlifter) pan the GL, perhaps one can extend the thought -- maybe they’ve seen something I haven’t. :scan: Clue #3 -- when I go reading various items & see the wisdom of these folks in action, it only reaffirms clue #1.

On the other side, greater risk abounds. :eek: New voices (game expertise is uncertain) asking various questions (perhaps Clue #4? -- experts would already know these answers?) might be labeled differently than expert. Clearly any judgment risks being premature before additional data is accumulated. But taking risks is part of the game (pun attempted :D ). A good benchmark might be the GOTM -- the better players tend to get the better scores -- so much so in fact that they now compete at a level to get those scores faster.

Regarding Wonders and their values -- I don’t think that a flat comparison does justice. In the most recent GOTM, four wonders were equally popular at emperor level -- Colossus, Pyramids, Hanging Gardens, and the Great Library (as of this writing, the poll for these ranged from 10 to 14, whereas the other three choices lagged at 1 or 2). It will be interesting to examine the results afterwards & compare the choices with the standings -- did the wonder choice make a significant difference? Did the players who finished at the upper end of the spectrum have a high correlation with some particular choice?

But that is for the emperor level -- we might see different choices for a different level. If I were playing at the warlord level I’d go for Pyramids. If I were playing Deity +2, I think that I’d opt for the Great Wall. In a similar fashion, a better player than me would probably opt for the Colossus or Hanging Gardens at Deity +2, and a more inexperienced player may choose the Great Wall at a level as high as King.

And those choices only reflect the one dimensional ‘rating’ of experience or ‘quality’. Different styles of play factor into the Wonder choices. Although there are clear overlaps between the conquerors & starshippers, the best of both seem to have similar common elements -- some growth, some science, some security -- perhaps even offensive capability. Those players more adept with ICS may choose HG sooner & GW later, those who gift science and count beakers may choose GL later, those who have a higher camel/settler ratio may choose…those who search faster may choose… and so forth.

AOA, I didn’t see your name in last month’s GOTM -- feel free to play a game & compare results -- even old dogs can find new fun.
 
I think some admin goes by AOA around here. Do you need a surgeon to remove those lips from the experts @ss sherlock?
Heh just kidding, I rarely play anymore but I'm sure I'll get the civ bug in me eventually. Then I'll come play GOTM and feel the warmth of your lips :P
 
You should be wary about drawing a comparison between how somebody feel about the Great Library and their ability as a CIV player. There may be a correlation in that as players become more experienced then they tend to rely less on the GL, but it cannot be looked at in isolation, as the GL is not a strategy in itself that precludes any other strategy.

You cannot judge a players ability only on their GOTM scores as the GOTM strongly favours a particular sytle of play. Looking at the results for Gotm 19 shows all of the top scores as conquest victories, the system is biased towards the early finish that is best achieved through conquest.

I am by my own admission far from being the best CIV player around, my GOTM scores reflect in part my ability and in part my style of play, I enjoy empire building, not early conquest, so my strategies are applied accordingly. I will build the GL to stop the AI getting it, and for the points, but it is way down the list of priorities and that is where it will stay.

If you like the library then build it, play your own game and enjoy yourself, that is what it is all about.

have fun

ferenginar 65
 
Originally posted by ArmOrAttAk
I think some admin goes by AOA around here. Do you need a surgeon to remove those lips from the experts @ss sherlock?
Heh just kidding, I rarely play anymore but I'm sure I'll get the civ bug in me eventually. Then I'll come play GOTM and feel the warmth of your lips :P

ArmOrAttAk (AOAA?): Let's keep things CIV-il here. A question was asked about the value of GL, and OldAndSlow responded with some reflections that others of us have also been noticing. Your response was out of line.

The GL gives you free techs, but you have no control over when you get them or what they are. Those of us who are trying to plan our techs, to get to something as soon as possible, are frequently frustrated by getting freebies because it does two things: it increases the number of beakers that are needed for current and future techs, and it can cause the next tech that we are shooting for to disappear from the choice list for a round. Someone also mentioned that a freebie can also screw up a technique of play, such as how getting Feudalism removes the option of building Warriors, which is the only 10 shield unit and often is used in Incremental Partial Rush Buying (IRPB). This does not matter as much when most of your cities are making 10 or more shields per turn, but it matters a lot if your cities are still making only 3-6 shields. If you are not a production or research micromanager this may be lost on you, but these seem to be the issues that OldAndSlow has noticed more experienced players focusing on.

Personally, I like to get to Trade as early as possible (after Monarchy), then build Marco Polo's Embassy. This allows me to see everyone's list of techs, and with some careful tech trading, get everyone's current maps. If other players have techs I need I can see what else they have and figure out what they would like to trade for. With MPE you can "manage" the AI tech research at an early stage of the game to your own benefit. Also, giving an AI civ a tech causes their attitude toward you to go up, opening up options such as alliances and tribute. If the other civs get the same tech from the GL and then sharing it amongst themselves you lose the benefit of gifting it. Getting MPE early and tech-gifting will lower your cost of research (the "key civ" technique), increase your standing diplomatically with other civs, and nearly eliminate the suprise of finding out that the Babylonians have just gotten Philosophy two turns before you could have. Also, if another civ is researching something and you want to slow them down, gift them a few extra techs and their cost of research will go up!
 
Building the GL takes 300 shields and if I'm lucky I get one or two tech advances from it since I'm always so far ahead of the AI tech-wise. Not worth the effort. Marco Polo is a much better investment even though I have to trade something for the techs I get. Big deal, I'm studying Electronics or Nuclear Fission while my AI competitors are still begging me to give them Warrior Code. I think it's a sacrifice I can afford to make.
 
I hate the Great Library. First, its too easy to get ahead of AI civs through tech recieved by huts, capturing enemy towns and through your own discoveries. Secondly by the time you come around to find time for building it, you should be close enough to electricity, which makes it obselete, to make it a worthless wonder.
 
It's true you do get points for building it. I actually try to build all 28 wonders of the world if I can. It's not easy getting the first seven, though. I just establish 8 cities as quickly as possible, use the first 7 for wonders, then the 8th city to expand. It usually works pretty well, though sometimes I have to buy wonders to finish them before the AI.
But anyway, ElephantU is right about the points for the GL: Philly boys are so smart!
 
Originally posted by ElephantU
Even if it is obsolete you still get points for building it...

You get the same points for capturing it as well.
 
Reading over the post replies to this question makes me realize I am WAY OUT OF MY LEAGUE! Sheesh, I play a couple of hours once or twice a week -- I got kids to feed, a house to pay off, a wife to ... well, that's none of your dadgum bizness! It's just fun for me.
Having said that, I always try to build every wonder I can, capture the rest and leave my enemies in the dust. I do think GL is about 4th or 5th on my list of priorities (Pyramids, Wall o'China, Colussus (sp?), then mabe GL. I do like The Great Library, however, because it gives me techs I don't have to research. Never worried about the beaker thing.
I've only been playing for 10 or so months, so a question: is consistently finishing the Prince game with the "Magnificent" tag applied to my ruler's name good?
Hey fellas, chill out. It's a game. No, take that back. Talkin' smack is fun, whether on a basketball court or in this place. Part of the fun of playing is getting good at it and comparing yourself to others.
 
Originally posted by Remorseless
I've only been playing for 10 or so months, so a question: is consistently finishing the Prince game with the "Magnificent" tag applied to my ruler's name good?

Good, Remorseless? Yes, definitely. Getting forever hailed as "magnificent" is pretty cool :cooool: , isn't it?

Great? Try starlifter as the measure. Usually by 1AD he has tanks and bombers. Perhaps I exaggerate, but it seems that there are so many players here who outclass me as well. But I keep posting and learning.

I love this site! :love: (and Civ2, obviously)

PS My 200th post!! [dance] [party] [dance]
 
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