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Loyalty makes it impossible to invade other continents.

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by tidoceqi, Nov 23, 2020.

  1. tidoceqi

    tidoceqi Chieftain

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    HTF are you supposed to conquer another continent around medieval/renaissance era?

    There's a continent with a rival empire on it, I land lots of crossbows and pikemen on it, take a city.. "rebels in 3 turns".

    Fine, I try something else, I raze that city, and 2 more cities, building my own cities instead with settlers.

    "rebels in 11 turns".

    And I already have the "war guy" governor there, the military-card that gives +2 loyalty for garrisoned cities, the green-card with +2 loyalty for cities with governors, AND I bought a monument (+1 loyalty). And it's my own city that I established, no conquered penalty.

    Literally no matter what you do, it is impossible to stack enough loyalty to keep a city,.


    That makes no sense.
     
    Ircher likes this.
  2. Deggial

    Deggial Emperor

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    Nibble from the outside!
    Never attack the center of an empire. Work your way from a far out city towards the highly populated areas. This is also true - and even more so - for continents with multiple Civs: you can’t even apply the next point, if the cities emanating the pressure are those of a neutral power.
    Edit: I would even go so far that, if your “favorite” opponent is situated in the middle of other civs, don’t declare on them, but one of the fringe realms first, even if you are on good terms with them. That’s not nice, but nice doesn’t win you a Conquest Victory. If you are on really good terms with one of the continent’s powers and don’t want to mess up with them, form a cultural alliance. This will eliminate their loyalty pressure.

    Be swift!
    11 turns should be more than enough to conquer the next city. Create clusters of conquered cities fast. They will support each other. If you are approaching the surrounding of the capital, make it to your primary next target. Capitals emanate huge loyalty pressure.

    Spread your love!
    “That war guy” is best located in a city behind the frontier one. Victor beams loyalty in a 9 tile radius. Use another governor in the newly conquered front city. Their loyalty bonus will add.

    Do it in good faith!
    Found a religion and bring some inquisitors with you. Your own religion will add loyalty to the city.

    Time your endeavor well.
    You being in a golden age and your opponent in a dark one is obviously the best time to attack. If the opposite is true, not so much.

    Take two.
    Don’t necessarily take a city, just because you can. Wrestle down the city’s defense and health and assign a unit or two to keep it this way. Meanwhile, attack the neighboring city. Take both in one coordinated strike.
    This one is obviously a bit risky, as the basically defeated city might still produce a defending unit (and a ranged unit at worst).
    Also, this tactic might be difficult to pull off, if there is an additional encampment to shoot at you or if there is already a strong ranged unit placed in the city.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2020
  3. CoconutTank

    CoconutTank Unapologetic Warmonger Supporter

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    Have you tried stacking sources of loyalty? Garrisoning a city with a military unit gives some loyalty by itself, and generally you don't want to leave captured cities alone too long. For policy cards, Limitanei (garrison gives additional +2 loyalty) and Praetorium (govr gives additional +2 loyalty) can help with holding on cities for longer, as does having a Monument up. Victor is great for holding onto cities, but he doesn't actually give more loyalty per turn than any other govr. Rather, he tends to establish faster than other govrs, and Garrison Commander (one of his first titles) gives +4 loyalty to other cities within 9 tiles.

    Ideally though, you don't want to be waiting around too long, and you probably don't want to be razing cities. You want to try capturing and holding cities as quickly as you can, because once you have enough cities captured (and with other sources of loyalty), your captured cities should be able to stabilize their loyalty between each other and against the opposing cities. If you ever need to check on the loyalty of your cities and how far off you are, there's a UI for that; click on the city, click on the little list icon on the city panel, and click on the govr icon to see the loyalty page.

    Also, be careful about what age you and your opponent are in when you go to war too. Civs in golden ages get a 1.5x multiplier to loyalty, and civs in dark ages get a 0.5x multiplier to loyalty, so if you're in a dark age, or if the opponent is in a golden age, holding onto cities will become more difficult.

    Edit: Ah, didn't see that you had already tried those policies. Well, generally being quick with holding cities is what you'll need to do, but you don't want to end up losing your military forces either.

    Edit2: The wiki page on Loyalty for Civ 6 is pretty detailed too, in case you might want more information! https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Loyalty_(Civ6)
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2020
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  4. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    You want to attack coastal cities if possible, or at least cities that can be attacked by boats. Ideally, you'd take 2 cities at once. In some cases, you can also settle some random land/island as close as possible to establish a base but that's not always possible.

    But make no mistake; you need a pretty big advantage-- you'll need to take a city every few turns. Combat boosts such as spies' listening post, great generals/admirals, and also Wars of Religion if you happen to be following different religions which is very likely (you don't have to be founder.

    Try not to raze any city; even if it flips back, it'll have temporarily reduced loyalty suppress for a bit. Target cities with entertainment complexes as that can help maintain loyalty much easier.

    This also helps a lot; you can also pillage in the meantime.
     
  5. kryat

    kryat King

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    It should also be said that certain civs have inherent advantages at solving this very problem, namely Spain, England, Ottomans, and Phonecia. They’re good to practice with.
     
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  6. criZp

    criZp Emperor

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    Make a "cut" into their territory where you raze a bunch of cities to separate the peripheral enemy cities from the more central ones.
     
  7. EgonSpengler

    EgonSpengler Deity

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    In addition to those named, I think Religion and Happiness impact Loyalty. [EDIT: Oops, somebody did mention religion already.]

    Anyway, I like that it's not easy to occupy captured land. Makes it more realistic, among other things.
     
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  8. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Play as england with the +4 RNDY loyalty
    So at +19 you can be surrounded by 20 cities, it does not matter as long as you have food and feel OK
    Without England you can get your city happy (say with a couple of Cahokia mounds) you are only at -2 or reduce the fortifications on a couple of cities before takling them all on the same turn. There is some loyalty effects with admirals and generals or you can chop in population which turns the odds faster than you think.
     
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  9. Vargas1

    Vargas1 Warlord

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    The main tips have been covered by others, but one thing to add is to carefully look at the population of the city you're conquering and neighboring cities. Generally speaking, the best "first" city to target in a conquest is the largest population city on the outskirts of an empire. If you can establish a foothold in a decent sized city, and you incorporate some of the other modifiers discussed (governor, policy cards, religion, happiness), you can usually stick around with that city long enough to bring up the rest of your army and start moving to neighboring cities.

    Also, starting with Renaissance if you get a golden age you can go for the Hic Sunt Dracones dedication. There is a small direct loyalty boost (I think it's +2 for cities on other continents), but the real key is that founding a city on another continent starts with 4 population instead of 1. If you have Ancestral Hall (so you get a builder when founding a city), you can bring 2 or 3 settlers to a new continent and immediately start a cluster of viable cities that can support their population and will provide enough loyalty support to each other to keep things going. If you're stuck looking at settling somewhere like tundra or desert, then plan your invasion ahead of time and hold onto a trader or two to send immediately to your new city to keep the population up.
     
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  10. Buktu

    Buktu Warlord

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    You can ofc do all the above to raise your loyalty. Additionally you can just bring more units so you have unit group one conquering everthing and unit group two (and maybe even 3) stay in the conquered land to retake any city flipping from you immediately. (Ships are great for this since they have to stay at the shore anyway and ranged ships are quite nice to take down city defenses.) Once you have stabilized your other unit groups can help to conquer the rest of the continnent faster (if they are land units).
     
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  11. gcampono

    gcampono Chieftain

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    I never understood this thing: when I have Victor in a nearby city, if I add a governor it does not show me +8 but only +4, so I thought it was not stacking... Is it a UI glitch, they do not stack or am I missing something ?
     
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  12. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    It takes 11 turns to rebel, Huh.

    In 11 turns you can do a lot of things to improve the loyalty. Capturing more cities to remove negative loyalty source, chop an entertainment complex and run projects, etc.
     
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  13. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

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    I'm pretty sure I've seen him stack, although not positive on what the UI shows.

    But as for the other hints, the other strategy is to simply capture cities and let them flip as you continue invading. Nothing says you have to hold everything - simply keep invading the other AI cites, then come back to take the rebel cities once you have created a greater foothold.

    Once you get 2-3 cities in an empire, usually that plus governors should be enough to hold it, unless if you're also timing your war wrong (ie. you're in a dark age trying to invade a civ in a golden age).

    The other obvious strategy is that usually there's stretches of empty space on a map, either in the tundra or behind some city-states. Settle a couple cities there as a foothold and it should be easier to make inroads.
     
  14. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    If you go Crusade it makes sense to spread it to cities you want to attack first, and then continue during the war for era score. But it requires a religion

    Mohksa is very good, especially if you get his full heal promotion.
     
  15. Virdrago

    Virdrago Wandering

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    Victor has to be promoted at least once after choosing him, to Garrison Commander. Did you do that? Edit: Also, it's only for Gathering Storm.

    I use his ability all the time, both for helping hold on to taken cities and to protect my outer cities during a Dark Age.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2020
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  16. CoconutTank

    CoconutTank Unapologetic Warmonger Supporter

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    Victor's Garrison Commander buff does show up in the UI and definitely stacks with other govrs :)

    Here's Victor with the relevant title (Garrison Commander):
    Here're the two cities which will have Victor (Shaduppum) and Reina (Tuttul):
    This is Tuttul's loyalty page before Victor is fully established (at 25 loyalty):
    This is Tuttul's loyalty page after Victory is fully established (at 29 loyalty):
     
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  17. Elhoim

    Elhoim Iron Tower Studio Dev

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    Raze. Raze. Raze. I hate the AI city position choice so much that's the only option I take :p
     
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  18. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    You have 11 turns, isn't it enough for you to capture the nearby cities?
     
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  19. HiRezAudio

    HiRezAudio Prince

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    I do confess that if Loyalty is a serious issue I tend to burn cities to the ground as I go - i'll let them flip once or twice (recapturing is great to get promotions on Units during the war too) but if they rebel too often I get the flamethrowers out & if it is a badly sited city then it will get burned automatically.
    Another thing to do is to pillage the hell out of any & all districts in surrounding cities as that will not only drop their loyalty really quickly but it also reduces their defence capability.
    Pillage, pillage, pillage.
     
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  20. JesseS

    JesseS Warlord

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    Other posters have given plenty of good loyalty tips here, but I suspect this isn’t really the root cause of your problems in conquering.

    Are you in golden ages at all times? If not, learn era score sources.

    Is your military at least 1 era of tech ahead of your opponents? If not, get almost every eureka, spam more campuses, and focus more on culture to get early corps/armies and run better policies.

    Is your military large enough to conquer multiple fronts in a war (taking new cities while looping back to reconquer free cities)? If not, pillage more for gold and faith to buy more units or chop some units out with Magnus.

    Are you managing grievances by declaring joint wars and/or wars with a causus belli? Grievances directly affect captured city loyalty. Also, never raze cities. The grievances generated will just make it even harder to hold onto different ones from the same owner.

    Intercontinental invasions take overwhelming force to be successful. You need to be able to move fast to establish a loyalty base. If you can take down 3 cities in 15 turns, you don’t need to worry much about loyalty.

    Finally, loyalty policy cards are terrible and should only be used in a desperate situation. You’re probably forgoing ~30 gpt from envoys and hundreds of gold/faith from raid-enhanced pillaging. It’s better to instead chop out some population (jungle or most bonus resources) and make sure the city isn’t starving.
     
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