Loyalty

[caketastydelish]

I actually like this game of civ a lot compared to the others with the important exception of Loyalty. It makes being a warmonger a complete pain in the ass and I can't for the life of me figure out how to do it without the city I just captured almost immediately declaring independence. I played as Korea and ended up with a science victory on Noble because I stopped trying to warmonger but how can I fix this? How can I spread my loyalty to the point where warmongering is much more feasible?

 

[Fluphen Azine]

Governors, Policy Cards, Monuments, Golden Ages, Capitals, Speed... etc. etc.

 

[Aurelesk]

So in short:

• Occupied cities have -5 Loyalty
  • Garrison give +8 Loyalty
    • Sloting the Limitanei policy card give +2 Loyalty
• If you have a Religion:
  • If the city have an other religion: -3 Loyalty
  • If the city have your religion: +3 Loyalty
• Starving cities have -4 Loyalty
  • Repair the Farms tiles or put an Internal Trade Route
• Monument: +1 Loyalty
• Look for the Amenity
  • -6 Loyalty if -3 or less Amenities
  • -3 Loyalty -1 or -2 Amenities
  • +0 Loyalty if 0 Amenities
  • +3 Loyalty if +1 or +2 Amenities
  • +6 Loyalty if +3 or more Amenities
• Put a Governor for +8 Loyalty
  • Slotting the Praetorium policy card give +2 Loyalty.
  • Having Amani with Prestiqe give +2 Loyalty
• If the city isn't on your continent: +3 Loyalty from the Colonial Offices policy cards.
• Some Great Generals and Great Admirals have +Loyalty as retirement abilities
• Conquer the nearby cities to reduce the Loyalty Pressure
• Do an Cultural Alliance if a nearby civilization you are not at war put Loyalty Pressure on you
• Run the Bread and Circus project if you have in the city or nearby cities the Entertainement Complex or Water Park.
• Try to be on a Golden Age to suffer less from Loyalty issue

If you have full Pressure, you have -20 Loyalty from Population, plus -5 from the Occupied statut, and maybe -6 from Amenities, so -31 Loyalty to deal with. Maybe -34 if Religion issue.
Garrison (+8), Limitanei (+2), Governor (+8), Praetorium (+2), and Monument (+1) give you 21 Loyalty, so -10 to -16 Loyalty. The only thing to do is to deal with the Amenity issue: going from -6 to +6 is equal to have from -16/-10 to -4/+2 Loyalty per turn, solving the problem.

So, make sure your population is really happy before going into war.

 

[curtb12345]

I actually like this game of civ a lot compared to the others with the important exception of Loyalty. It makes being a warmonger a complete pain in the ass and I can't for the life of me figure out how to do it without the city I just captured almost immediately declaring independence. I played as Korea and ended up with a science victory on Noble because I stopped trying to warmonger but how can I fix this? How can I spread my loyalty to the point where warmongering is much more feasible?

Does anyone else purposefully in the early game find a city site that will flip on loyalty and then mine in for culture, money and science with a couple warriors and builders?

 

[Midgardsormr]

Local loyalty pressure is strongest, so if there's any possibility that you can chop in some additional population, then bring a Builder along. You'll likely want one, anyway, to repair pillaged improvements, so you might as well chop some wheat or a marsh while you're at it.

Reduce foreign pressure against your city, as stated above. Razing cities might be more effective than conquest in some situations.

Pay attention to where your pressure is already strong, and attack there first. Hit high-population targets before smaller cities so you more quickly reduce enemy pressure. Be very careful when attacking when you're in a Dark Age or if your opponent is in a Golden Age, as that will exacerbate the loyalty problem.

Seeing a recently conquered city flip to a free city for a while isn't necessarily bad, as long as you're ready to defend against the units it spawns. If you're continuing your attack behind it, then it will eventually flip back to you, at which point the loyalty question will be more certain. Sometimes the free cities do manage to reinforce one another and stabilize, at which point you'd need to conquer again, but it's easier the second time.

The loyalty game means that you'll usually need to bring a larger army than you used to because you'll sometimes need to leave a unit behind as a garrison. I usually just use whatever units I need to heal for this purpose, but when I want to get those guys back into battle, sometimes I'll just buy a cheap unit for the garrison—Horsemen are a good choice for being cheap and available for a very long time.

 

[man_in_finance]

Were you in dark age? This a huge loyalty penalty, much more extreme than the gain from being in a golden age.

Does anyone else purposefully in the early game find a city site that will flip on loyalty and then mine in for culture, money and science with a couple warriors and builders?

I build cities flanking other civs, grow them, get access to bread and circuses and when I reach golden, or they become dark, activate all forms of attack at once, - multiple bread and circuses, governors in the right places, spies removing their governors, etc. Its often done in 5 turns.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

So in short:

• Occupied cities have -5 Loyalty
  • Garrison give +8 Loyalty
    • Sloting the Limitanei policy card give +2 Loyalty
• If you have a Religion:
  • If the city have an other religion: -3 Loyalty
  • If the city have your religion: +3 Loyalty
• Starving cities have -4 Loyalty
  • Repair the Farms tiles or put an Internal Trade Route
• Monument: +1 Loyalty
• Look for the Amenity
  • -6 Loyalty if -3 or less Amenities
  • -3 Loyalty -1 or -2 Amenities
  • +0 Loyalty if 0 Amenities
  • +3 Loyalty if +1 or +2 Amenities
  • +6 Loyalty if +3 or more Amenities
• Put a Governor for +8 Loyalty
  • Slotting the Praetorium policy card give +2 Loyalty.
  • Having Amani with Prestiqe give +2 Loyalty
• If the city isn't on your continent: +3 Loyalty from the Colonial Offices policy cards.
• Some Great Generals and Great Admirals have +Loyalty as retirement abilities
• Conquer the nearby cities to reduce the Loyalty Pressure
• Do an Cultural Alliance if a nearby civilization you are not at war put Loyalty Pressure on you
• Run the Bread and Circus project if you have in the city or nearby cities the Entertainement Complex or Water Park.
• Try to be on a Golden Age to suffer less from Loyalty issue

If you have full Pressure, you have -20 Loyalty from Population, plus -5 from the Occupied statut, and maybe -6 from Amenities, so -31 Loyalty to deal with. Maybe -34 if Religion issue.
Garrison (+8), Limitanei (+2), Governor (+8), Praetorium (+2), and Monument (+1) give you 21 Loyalty, so -10 to -16 Loyalty. The only thing to do is to deal with the Amenity issue: going from -6 to +6 is equal to have from -16/-10 to -4/+2 Loyalty per turn, solving the problem.

So, make sure your population is really happy before going into war.

Alternatively, pin down that city's HP with a ranged unit shooting it each turn and besiege the next. Take 2-3 cities at once and the loyalty pressure will look very different.

Depending on situation this is a substantially smaller investment, though you have to be careful with the hidden WW rules since shooting stuff does increase it.

 

[Goodenuf]

Personally, I love the new Loyalty feature. The Loyalty aspect certainly forces you to plan your warmongering appropriately; it's far more difficult to take and retain 1 or 2 cities from a strong neighbor than it was before. All the points listed above by others make total sense. Bottom line: you need to be better prepared to take multiple cities; preferably ones that are close by your own cities to get some loyalty support (i.e. go after your neighbors instead of someone halfway across the map). And watch that age tracker; if you start in a golden age and part of the way through end up changing to a dark age, you'll find loyalty a huge issue in your captured cities.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

Personally, I love the new Loyalty feature. The Loyalty aspect certainly forces you to plan your warmongering appropriately; it's far more difficult to take and retain 1 or 2 cities from a strong neighbor than it was before. All the points listed above by others make total sense. Bottom line: you need to be better prepared to take multiple cities; preferably ones that are close by your own cities to get some loyalty support (i.e. go after your neighbors instead of someone halfway across the map). And watch that age tracker; if you start in a golden age and part of the way through end up changing to a dark age, you'll find loyalty a huge issue in your captured cities.

Does it really?
According to Top Players they have 15 to 20 Cities by turn 100 in most cases.
Current Trends on Deity seem to be able to win from turn 90 to 160 in most cases and doesn't matter your choice of Victory Type.
Usually I have 10 cities by turn 100 as I am not nearly as good at the game.
However by the time I get Tanks even I can take over the map before turn 200.
I like the Loyalty Mechanic but it seems broken and even worse for the AI.
I have never seen an AI take over the Map like in other versions of Civ.

 

[Midgardsormr]

I don't generally see a win before turn 200 even playing on Emperor. On Immortal and Deity, I have a hard time getting there before 250, and I'm frequently within a few turns of losing. If you're used to cutting off a city or two then suing for peace while you rebuild, then the loyalty mechanism can be punishing. It forces us weaker players to think a little harder about our wars and how to cut an enemy nation in such a way as to not constantly lose our gains. Best not to evaluate a mechanic in terms of how it's managed by the top .01% of players.

 

[Victoria]

Read the loyalty guide linked above my signature, I explains all.
It need a couple of small updates but is fine for your requirements.

According to Top Players they have 15 to 20 Cities by turn 100 in most cases.

In the case of playing a speedgame you gain about 10-15cities in 20-30 turns, you are taking cities faster than they can rebel because you have early knights and ram

 

[Fluphen Azine]

I don't generally see a win before turn 200 even playing on Emperor. On Immortal and Deity, I have a hard time getting there before 250, and I'm frequently within a few turns of losing. If you're used to cutting off a city or two then suing for peace while you rebuild, then the loyalty mechanism can be punishing. It forces us weaker players to think a little harder about our wars and how to cut an enemy nation in such a way as to not constantly lose our gains. Best not to evaluate a mechanic in terms of how it's managed by the top .01% of players.

I see your point.
I apologize if my post offended you or anyone else.
This version of Civ seems so easy compared to others IMO that is.
I have read many of your posts. IMO I am surprised that you struggle.
Settings and Certain Rules can cause a gap in comparison.
My games are usually Deity/Stand/Pang which seems the most difficult for Loyalty problems.
I like the mechanic.
I just don't think it is punishing enough.
My math is probably off but I would think it is 3% of players compared to .01%.
The times I notice when I struggle boils down to two main problems.
Some other minor problems as well.

1. I am not concentrating on settlers.
This means I have stopped focusing on them because I have fallen into some sort of builder mode.

2. I have stopped building Army.
This is usually because I am lazy, feel I have enough and have fallen into some sort of builder mode.

3. I am not focusing on Era Score.
Golden Ages seem to fix any Loyalty Issues.

4. The Average Player always falls into the Wonder Building Trap.
They want all the Wonders. I have seen that issue with most versions of Civ.

5. I am trying to find the perfect location for each city.
I notice that keeping cities in a tight cluster works better.

6. I wasn't building the Colosseum.
Seems easy enough on Deity.
I am not very good but I get this up around turn 85 to 95 in most games.
I think better players get it up faster.

7. I am not playing Nice.
I find it easier to Forward the AI if I play nice and become Friends while I expand.
Using my Friends to gang up on the Enemy.
This could be a rule you don't employ but getting the AI to join your war seems to help.

8. Players are insisting on Holy Sites and Religion.
I find that this is very situational in my games.
I find that it isn't as safe as focusing on Military, Culture or Science.
Fun, but can cause all sorts of early problems if you aren't in an ideal situation.

9. I am watching too many Youtube/Twitch players do things wrong but don't realize it.

As @Victoria has already stated all of this information is in her guide.

 

[Midgardsormr]

I apologize if my post offended you or anyone else.

Oh, no offense was taken! I just meant that advice coming from top tier players may not work as well for those of us whose overall strategy is not up to snuff. I find that I have to put a bit more effort into loyalty issues because I don't conquer fast enough. I have a strong command of each system, and when I concentrate on something I can work it well. It's just getting everything interlocked and working together that defeats me. I have a hard time with the parallel thinking required to get everything done at once.

My biggest issues are, in some ways, the opposite of yours. I build Settlers when I should be waging war, fixate on the Era Score, and am far too nice to the AI. Sometimes I simply can't expand because I have DoF with everyone. I mean, Mvemba comes at me with that big smile, and I just can't help being his friend.

I do have to agree that VI must be easier than previous versions. I never managed a Deity victory on any previous version of Civ, as far as I recall. I played a few Deity GOTM in 4 and just left a bloody smear on the floor each time. The fact that I can currently manage it suggests that the game is easier.