Luxury for Luxury trades and the Stupid AI

[bcaiko]

Hey folks -

So in a recent cooperative multiplayer game (with one friend and the AI enabled), I tried to make a trade with the AI Wu Zetian. I had 3 silk, she had 2 citrus. Easy trade, right? NOPE. AI wouldn't make the trade, said there's no way to make it work. She wasn't even guarded toward me. She was neutral, but disliked me a bit because my partner and I had done some warmongering.

The thing is, I see this all the time on Singleplayer, too. Idiotic AIs making idiotic decisions with their luxuries - if they've bothered to improve all of their luxuries in the first place. With the AI taking a hit to happiness, I know she could use that extra silk and it won't even cost her anything! THAT EXTRA CITRUS ISN'T DOING ANYTHING FOR YOU WU. Yet she refuses to make the trade out of - what, spite? If that were the case, she would trade off the extra citrus to someone else. But we all know she won't do that. She's gonna hold onto that extra Citrus as if it were worth anything to her, when she could - and should! - be getting value out of it.

With the early game happiness nerfs, the nerf to lump sum trading, the AI overvaluing GPT and the inability to engage in a loan (i.e., pay more GPT than you have, letting you pay money per turn out of your treasury) - the AI engaging in this stupidity makes the game artificially difficult. Unless you really, truly hate someone, a human player would always want to get value from a luxury that's doing nothing for them.

A human player would also improve that freaking second whale inside their capital so they could trade it and get the value from it!

Anybody else seeing this issue, or is it just me?

tl;dr: Give me your spare citrus for my spare silk, you moronic AI.

 

[SackofOwls]

I can never seem to get a fair deal for an AI's luxuries. I don't know what it is. I can get an Extra Lux for an Extra Lux from me. I can sell mine off for between 5-6 GPT no problem.

But if I want to buy an extra luxury from the AI they always want some ridiculous trade.

 

[steveg700]

Yes, the AI has some major shortfalls.

I boggles my mind that we're this far into the game, and the AI still doesn't know how to offer a trade. It only knows how to ask for a DoF, and then request a gift. Any trading has to actually be initiated by the player. What is up with that? And of all the nitpicky things we do complain about collectively, why doesn't this rate higher on the list?

And if it can't offer a one-for-one resource trade, then why does the AI so frequently down to just one copy of a resource, even when it has no friends? Are they just running around demanding resources from each other? That can't be, because the AI never demands anything from the player, even when he's weak. It just makes snide remarks and/or DoW's.

Listen, there are games where this kind of thing actually happnes. Old games.

 

[Cromagnus]

I've noticed that you can get even resource<->resource trades even when the computer won't give you full value. Like, if they'll only give you 156g for a resource, or 4g/turn for a resource, they'll still give you an even resource trade sometimes.

One would assume they would request some extra gold: IE 1 silver for 1 ivory + 1g/turn.

Also, the AI will give you open borders in exchange for 1g/turn unless they really don't like you, but they want 50g in cash. 1g/turn is worth less than 50g in cash. Much less because you can cancel the deal at any time. I would expect them to require 2g/turn minimum.

Similarly, they request 8g/turn for a resource, but will give no more than 6g/turn for a resource you trade them. Yet they'll trade 240g for a resource in either direction.

I suspect all three of these things are bugs.

 

[EgyptRaider]

Yeah that's pretty annoying... Why you can't trade luxuries 1 on 1 is mind boggling.... the whole system was designed for such trades!!

 

[Txurce]

I can never seem to get a fair deal for an AI's luxuries. I don't know what it is. I can get an Extra Lux for an Extra Lux from me. I can sell mine off for between 5-6 GPT no problem.

But if I want to buy an extra luxury from the AI they always want some ridiculous trade.

The AI demands 240g for a luxury, exactly what they will pay you if you're a Friend. But while they will give you 6gpt if they feel okay about you, they demand 8 gpt if the shoe's on the other foot. If they don't like you, they will show it, whereas you will swallow your feelings for needed happiness. This has to be at least partly to the AI usually not needing more happiness. Seems fair enough to me. It doesn't even register on my list of minor complaints.

Yes, the AI has some major shortfalls.

I boggles my mind that we're this far into the game, and the AI still doesn't know how to offer a trade. It only knows how to ask for a DoF, and then request a gift. Any trading has to actually be initiated by the player. What is up with that? And of all the nitpicky things we do complain about collectively, why doesn't this rate higher on the list?

And if it can't offer a one-for-one resource trade, then why does the AI so frequently down to just one copy of a resource, even when it has no friends? Are they just running around demanding resources from each other? That can't be, because the AI never demands anything from the player, even when he's weak. It just makes snide remarks and/or DoW's.

Listen, there are games where this kind of thing actually happnes. Old games.

The AI doesn't ask the human for trades, but constantly trades with other AI. (Use whoward69's Trade Opportunities mod to see just how much.) Why doesn't it approach the human player? No idea, but I prefer it this way, as it keeps me on my toes, keeping tabs on trade expirations.

 

[isau]

Wu Zetian is a notorious isolationist. I've rarely had problems making even trades with other AIs though.

It's not exactly true that an extra luxury does nothing for you. It's like reserve gold, a bargaining chip that can possibly get you out of a tight situation. I often save mine for bribing other players into or out of a war. Of course, I don't think the AIs can bribe each other to war, but they do offer trades as peace deals.

 

[harmanoff]

Im my recent game i traded my silver for 240g toba gaurded ai..and again to another neutral and friendly no issue with askjn for crazy deals...i never ask what she wants in return i just propose i want and will give if they dont take it...to the sword goes the plowshares!

 

[Tiggurix]

I find this especially egregious in the case of William of the Dutch. For some reason, he won't do a simple trade of his last copy of one Luxury resource for one of my spare luxuries, even though HE would gain more out of that deal than I would.

 

[Txurce]

I find this especially egregious in the case of William of the Dutch. For some reason, he won't do a simple trade of his last copy of one Luxury resource for one of my spare luxuries, even though HE would gain more out of that deal than I would.

The AI values its last luxury at about 2.5 or 3:1. I'm not surprised the devs didn't bother adding code to make an exception for the Netherlands in a scenario where they are left with 0.5.

 

[steveg700]

The AI doesn't ask the human for trades, but constantly trades with other AI. (Use whoward69's Trade Opportunities mod to see just how much.) Why doesn't it approach the human player? No idea, but I prefer it this way, as it keeps me on my toes, keeping tabs on trade expirations.

Well, while it seems a bit asinine to posit tthat it's more fun to go to the diplo screen and have to look every single turn, I do appreciate knowing that the AI is actually capable of trading. It simply chooses not to, and as a result the player has even worse happiness problems than he does anyway. It's even more inexcusable.

Come to think of it, even if you were on your toes, it still wouldn't help much of the time because before the players' turn comes up the good will often have been traded away.

By the way, anyone out there who actually gets another chance to ask the dev's questions, please ask them about stuff like this.

 

[Txurce]

Well, while it's asinine to posit tthat it's more fun to go to the diplo screen and have to look every single turn, but I appreciate knowing that the AI is actually capable of trading. It simply chooses not to, and as a result the player has even worse happiness problems than he does anyway.

Come to think of it, even if you were on your toes, it still wouldn't help much of the time because before the players' turn comes up the good will often have been traded away.

Wrong on the last point, but the "asinine" jab cost you further elucidation, buddy.

 

[steveg700]

Via con dios, Txurce. But should you encounter someone who's aggravated about a tax audit or root canal, and then tell them how you actually enjoy them because they keep you on your toes., well...it's kinda like Bill Murray in "Little Shop of Horrors". Admittedly, maybe a nicer word than "asinine" would've been "peculiar" or "odd". Let's go with peculiar. Give a guy a chance to edit!

That the AI doesn't engage the player to its fullest extent, and leaves most of the diplo options for the player to initiate--that ain't a feature, that's a crying shame.

 

[steveg700]

Actually, the reason why there are no deal offers from the AI may be that the devs are reluctant to have one AI civ after another constantly offering deals. Worked in past iterations of the game, but okay I can see where we might get threads about how to turn off "deal spam".

To me, it would certainly be worthwhile. But if they come up with a simple way to put great works up for trade, then why not luxes?

 

[Tachii]

They dislike warmongers. And you've been a very bad warmonger. She would do a trade lux for lux but she usually want 3gpt more in return. I had this happen before.

On another note, the best deal is trading 5 horses/iron to a lux. 5 horses in a lump deal is 225g, but AI doesn't really care about the 15g considering, I guess, it's "unfair" to get 1gpt and they're actually nice for once.

 

[steveg700]

Amusingly, they're generally willing to accept less than they actually offer when you hit "what will it take to make this deal work?"

 

[kekekeke]

Actually, the reason why there are no deal offers from the AI may be that the devs are reluctant to have one AI civ after another constantly offering deals. Worked in past iterations of the game, but okay I can see where we might get threads about how to turn off "deal spam".

Seems its okay for devs that AIs constantly pester with useless comments though. Firaxis, please add option to disable useless comments from AIs. A simple notification is enough when AIs who hate me make a friendship agreement. Adding an option to block any diplomacy from specific player could be welcome too (except perhaps a peace offering). While you are at it, maybe it would be worthwhile to make AIs consider human players as a suitable trading partner too! Thanks!

 

[Quineloe]

Why would the AI trade resources 1:1 when it already sits at +100 happiness and doesn't have policies that utilize excess happinness?

System is working fine.

The only thing that bugs me is that luxury resources are always worth 3gpt. Sorry, when empires rake in hundreds of gpt, gold should be worth a lot less than when you're trying really hard not to go into the negative. Modern Era, a luxury should be worth 30 gpt, not 3.

 

[FeiLing]

AI always trades their not last copies of luxuries 1:1 with me unless they're already hating me officially (several negative diplo modifiers, usually warmongering).

 

[paulcarri]

ha i tried to trade silver for wine last night and the ai said 'that isnt even remotely fair'

uhmmm why isnt it?

I asked what would work and got told

AI : silver


ME

WINE
5 X HORSES!
50 GOLD

was fair...


Errrm no ill just take it.