MacLordsv01 ~ By Any Means Necessary

dojoboy · Jun 3, 2007

Welnic said:
Moscow:
St. Petersburg: City doesn't need any more farms. Should start putting in watermills where possible. Finish forge, build stables and elephants. Doesn't have enough commerce for a market.

Is there an accepted amount where a market is warranted, or is this a standard you follow? I look at the market's 25% increase and think, more is better. but, I'm likely wasting turns for something that will never pay off.

Welnic · Jun 3, 2007

It's not actually the amount of commerce, but the city's purpose. Novgorod might not have much commerce now, but it will at some point. So even if we are running the slider at 70%, at some point it will be worth it to put a market there. St. Petersburg on the other hand, gets a huge bonus when it builds units, so it should build units. If it needs the market later for happiness reasons then build it. At that point it will not be that many turns anyway. It's more a matter of focus than the actual amount of commerce.

For Yekatarinburg, we would build a market if we wanted a great merchant. At this point of the game I would much rather have a GS or GE. You can usually find something to build with a GE, and we are at the point where GS can perfectly lightbulb techs.

dojoboy · Jun 4, 2007

I intend to play my turn-set this evening.

dojoboy · Jun 5, 2007

Pre-turn - 1085 AD Adjusted city workers and city build queues;

1 - 1100 AD - St. Petersburg b. forge, set to stable; Novgorod b. monastery, set to Confucian Missionary; Moscow b. cat, set to Christian Missionary; bombard Carthage, city defense down to 40%;

2 - 1106 AD - Istanbul b. Confucian Monastery, set to theatre; bombard Carthage, city defense down to 27%;

3 - 1112 AD - Moscow b. WB, set to Christian Missionary; bombard Carthage, city defense down to 13%;

4 - 1118 AD - Discovered Philosophy, set to Feudalism; Carthage trireme destroyed FB by Novgorod; bombard Carthage, city defense down to 0%; Research @ 50%, gaining 11 gpt;

5 - 1124 AD - St. Petersburg b. stable, set to elephants; Istanbul b. theatre, set to Confucian Missionary; Carthage captured, 202 :gold:

pillaged; Great General generated in Moscow; trade Engineering to Elizabeth for Feudalism (gold deal was gone); Guilds in 11 turns @ 60%, losing 6 gpt;

6 - 1130 AD - Moscow b. Christian Missionary (sent to Yekaterinburg), set to forge; Christianity brought to Yekaterinburg;

7 - 1136 AD - St. Petersburg b. elephant, set to elephant; Novgorod b. Confucian Missionary, set to Confucian Missionary; Mao made peace w/ Augustus; Confucianism brought to St. Petersburg;

8 - 1142 AD - Mao declared war on us, and Hannibal agreed to become Mao's vassal;

9 - 1148 AD - St. Petersburg b. elephant, set to elephant; Yekaterinburg b. Buddhist Monastery, set to Christian Temple; moving elephant toward Yekaterinburg in the event Mao lands forces on our eastern coastline;

10 - 1154 AD - St. Petersburg b. elephant, set to elephant; Istanbul b. Confucian Missionary, set to maceman (need to be able to respond to Chinese landings along our coast); England plops down Oxford north of New Kirk;

Recap:

Now, we're in a larger conflagration w/ Mao & Hannibal. It looks like we can move and raze Mao's nearest city. Hannibal is not going to venture out of his cities excpet to attack a wounded unit or capture a worker, which isn't going to be possible. But, I believe we should go ahead and take Hannibal out now. If not, we'll have to go to war w/ Mao again just to take out Hannibal. I had begun to build more units during my last turns, mixing in some macemen. Knights will be here soon (6 turns).

Spoiler :

willpax · Jun 5, 2007

Got it. Good job, dojoboy.

I'll wait until tomorrow night to play in order to get feedback.

Looking over the save, here are some thoughts:

I agree about taking out Hannibal. Our map is current, but he seems to have about three cities and I think we've take out his stack o'doom with Carthage.

I'm not sure about razing the Chinese city--that will further alienate Mao (like it matters, I know), but we could also gift it back should we decide we need to end the war, and it could become a focal point of whatever troops he decides to send at us. Put a few longbows and an elephant or two in the city, and our western front may hold.

We have managed to create a Buddhist/Confucian bloc against the Christians Mao and Hannibal. It might be good to try to get some of the others involved against Mao so mutual struggle bonuses can mitigate against the religious penalties in diplomacy. We want wars to be on our terms, not theirs.

My general plan will be to keep building military units, especially siege engines. The power graph needs to be our friend.

I eagerly await your thoughts.

Aoxomoxoa · Jun 6, 2007

Quick note... Macau might go into revolt soon, it's 4% Chinese. China's a long ways away. We need at least a couple of scouts, maybe 3 to find out what he's doing and where he is.

We should throw up something that we can whip in Moscow to get it unhappy.

Maybe a coliseum.

Aoxo

Welnic · Jun 6, 2007

Moscow: Moscow is unhappy, but when the forge is finished we will get +2 from gems and gold. Then a theatre will be quick with another +1 because we have dye. A market would be +2 for ivory and silk, but it might not be worth doing that instead of building some units. It is mainly unhappy because it is Christian, I do not know if getting another religion in there would help, but we should get Confucianism in there anyway. I would build forge, theatre, and then 1 or 2 triremes. I would send the ones parked there now down to deal with the trireme outside Novgorod.

Rostov: This will be a pretty good production city if we stay focused, 21 base hammers until biology. We don't really have the food to work more than 5 cottages, and plains cottages have always seemed something of a waste to me. We should just farm all of the plains and work the mines.

Yekaterinburg: We should whip the temple and then work two priests. We need to work the fish also. Once the next religion gets here we should whip that temple also, not waiting for the previous unrest to completely leave. This city is not going to have happiness problems for a long time. Then finish the library so we can run scientists once we get our great prophet. We are going to be racing Carthage since it has the GL, so it will be better with three priests.

Carthage: We don't really need theaters first thing in these cities since we are creative. The first turn out of revolt whatever you have being built gets some hammers in there so you don't get penalized when you whip. I think that a forge would be a good first build. That will help build other things and be +2 happy. We also want to get a library in there since the GL will have 2 scientists running. I wouldn't whip anything else on the first turn though as long as we aren't starving.

I think that we should go ahead and change to Representation. We'll get +3 happiness in the 5 biggest cities, that will help Moscow since we only have 2 units in there. We will have 5 specialists running so I think it will be worth it. It would be good to have the anarchy while Carthage is still rioting anyway.

I would attach the GG to the XP 8 chariot in Carthage and go for medic III and morale.

I would have St. Petes make a confucian missionary for Moscow.

dojoboy · Jun 6, 2007

Welnic said:
Carthage: We don't really need theaters first thing in these cities since we are creative.

Damn, why do I keep forgetting this. Thanks for catching that.

Ankh-f-n-Khonsu · Jun 6, 2007

Looking good. Where is our tech-path going? Seems at this point we have the option to shoot for liberalism, or beeline for military tradition to pick up cossacks. I'm inclined toward the latter, given how embroiled in war we are at present.

dojoboy · Jun 6, 2007

Order of Play:

dojoboy (UTC -5) - just finished
willpax (UTC -5) - up :whipped:

Welnic (UTC -7) - on deck
Aoxomoxoa (UTC -8) - warming up
Ankh-f-n-Khonsu (UTC -8)
Onagan (UTC +1)

willpax · Jun 6, 2007

Well, call me the trash player. Someone will need to fix this mess.

1154: changes as per Welnic's suggestions, including a move to representation. Promoted one axe in Carthage to maceman, reduced research rate to 50% to keep positive cash flow.

1160: Axe near Macao destroyed by war elephant. Chariot in Hannibal's territry also destroyed. Some historian or other pronounced ours the largest civilization.

1166: prepare for further advance.

1172: rethink advance: Mao has come with mace, treb, cat, 2 Cho-Ku-Nus (against which we have only one elephant as counter), and horse archers. Carthage comes out of revolt and into starvation; after one turn of production, I whip a forge, which reduces population to 6 and makes everyone else in Carthage very happy that the whiners are all dead.

1178: War elephant kills a catapult and mace attack, but is very damaged. Moscow starts theater, Novogorod a trireme. Carthage starts a library (although walls might be better in hindsight).

1184: The Chinese assault on Carthage continues: a mace is destroyed by the Chinese trebuchet. Our additional war elephants are still many turns away. The Chinese stack is reinforced, so I try to whittle it down will collateral damage from catapults; in hindsight, this was a huge mistake. The lead Cho-Ko-Nu had Drill 3, and took all three catapult hits without a scratch. I am afraid that I have blown it. Moscow does embrace Confucianism, seeking consolation after the bleak news from the front.

1190: One mace successfully defends a Chok attack, but the sword loses. The defenders of Carthage are getting smaller and smaller. We finish guilds and start researching nationalism (15 turns at 60%). We start a stable in Moscow, forge in Yaroslavl, and a Cofucian temple in Yekaterinburg.

1196: begin producing a knight in St. Pete.

1202: the highly drilled Cho-Ko-Nu continues kicking our butt in the forest by Carthage; the newly minted warlord unit in Carthage manages to get killed (and I am not sure how, as there was one mace left defending; should I have evacuated the warlord, even though the increased healing was crucial to the defense of Carthage?)

1208: Moscow starts knight; Yekaterinburg starts lighthouse while running 3 priests. The elephants finally arrive, just in time to finish off the Chinese, although not before they destroy the superfluous winery near Carthage. One elephant gets flanking 2 to deal with uber-drilled Cho-Ko-Nu, and wins; the other gets combat and takes out the horse archer (that could be yet another mistake--should I have attacked with no promotions in that case?).

I am afraid that my generalship has been less than competent. Carthage is kept and the Chinese stack destroyed, but at the cost of our own offensive stack. We need to rebuild with a more modern army, and quickly.

Spoiler :

Save file:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/95757/MacLordsV01_AD-1208.CivWarlordsSave

dojoboy · Jun 6, 2007

That was fast. I felt like there would be more discussion, but we may have some folks out of the loop atm.

Order of Play:

dojoboy (UTC -5)
willpax (UTC -5) - just finished
Welnic (UTC -7) - up :whipped:

Aoxomoxoa (UTC -8) - on deck
Ankh-f-n-Khonsu (UTC -8) - warming up
Onagan (UTC +1)

Comments soon.

dojoboy · Jun 6, 2007

Our axeman who was fog-busting near Hastings can be ordered to the front. He's not serving much use where he is atm. I guess we do not need to worry about a Chinese landing on our eastern flank, since no one is near learning Astronomy. Of course, Mao could come by galley, but... .

Are there any cities where we can afford to whip some knights & cats?

willpax · Jun 7, 2007

dojoboy said:
Our axeman who was fog-busting near Hastings can be ordered to the front. He's not serving much use where he is atm. I guess we do not need to worry about a Chinese landing on our eastern flank, since no one is near learning Astronomy. Of course, Mao could come by galley, but... .

Are there any cities where we can afford to whip some knights & cats?

I've been fairly light with the whip--I used it in Yekaterinburg and Carthage and I don't think anywhere else--so Welnic should have a fairly free hand with things at this point.

Perhaps I should have waited another day for feedback? I've been going on a 24-hour turnaround, but I could probably slow down some. . .

Welnic · Jun 7, 2007

It doesn't look too bad. Though Mao power rating means he has lots of units somewhere, They must be heading towards Carthage. I probably would have researched gunpowder before nationalism, since muskets do well against Cho-Ko-Nu and we need it for Cossacks anyway. I'll just keep moving units toward Carthage. I'll probably build a Longbow or two also. I'll probably move one of the Triremes towards Carthage, and the other towards Novgorod. There is a barbarian galley to kill on the way to deal with Hannibal's Trireme, and we need two Triremes to deal with it effectively.

I'll probably whip in Istanbul since it is unhappy. Moscow is unhealthy, but that will be fine once the corn near Istanbul is hooked up. The forest near Moscow really shouldn't have been chopped, it was more important for health reasons than a farm for Yekatrinburg. It would need to have a population of about 18 before it could use those farms. It also needed the health more.

We need to chop the forest in Rostov that prevents the last plain square from being irrigated.

I'll probably cancel the cows to Gandhi for fish deal, and see if I can get something better.

Once we get gunpowder we might want to go into Nationhood for a while and draft some musketmen.

Welnic · Jun 7, 2007

willpax said:
...
Carthage comes out of revolt and into starvation; after one turn of production, I whip a forge, which reduces population to 6 and makes everyone else in Carthage very happy that the whiners are all dead.
...

When a city comes out of revolt it gets one turn of production, so there are already hammers in whatever you have queued. That is why it is important to have what you really want queued up. If after you whip that you still have people starving, it is best to add another building and whip it then. You are going to lose someone to starvation anyway, so they might as well help build something. The penalty for whipping a cheap building with no hammers isn't as much as 1 pop, I don't think.

Ankh-f-n-Khonsu · Jun 7, 2007

willpax said:
1202: the highly drilled Cho-Ko-Nu continues kicking our butt in the forest by Carthage; the newly minted warlord unit in Carthage manages to get killed (and I am not sure how, as there was one mace left defending; should I have evacuated the warlord, even though the increased healing was crucial to the defense of Carthage?)

I assume the maceman was wounded, which left the general as most powerful. Note that the warlord could have as easily healed the troops in Carthage from outside the city, since his Medic III is effective in his own tile as well as all adjacent tiles.

willpax said:
1208: Moscow starts knight; Yekaterinburg starts lighthouse while running 3 priests. The elephants finally arrive, just in time to finish off the Chinese, although not before they destroy the superfluous winery near Carthage. One elephant gets flanking 2 to deal with uber-drilled Cho-Ko-Nu, and wins; the other gets combat and takes out the horse archer (that could be yet another mistake--should I have attacked with no promotions in that case?).

Check odds before promoting. If the elephant had 90%+ odds before attacking, then best not to promote.

willpax said:
I am afraid that my generalship has been less than competent. Carthage is kept and the Chinese stack destroyed, but at the cost of our own offensive stack. We need to rebuild with a more modern army, and quickly.

Indeed, very quickly. We should definitely use the whip, as has been suggested. I might also switch Yaroslavl from forge to cats. Yes, a forge will certainly speed up production going forward, but we need units now. If we're lucky Mao's offensive stacks are finished as well, and we can focus on rebuilding our army and finish Hannibal.

We should get Elizabeth into the war against Mao. Give her guilds if necessary. If she does go into it as a favor, we can trade her guilds for compass and music, perhaps; we need the latter for our UU. Speaking of, given the decision to research nationalism, I take it we are on our way directly to military tradition?

willpax · Jun 7, 2007

I think Welnic was arguing for a switch to gunpowder, which we would need for Cossacks anyway and would provide a more immediate counter to the Cho-Ko-Nus. Then Nationalism and military tradition for some UU goodness. That sounds like a good plan to me.

dojoboy · Jun 7, 2007

Ankh-f-n-Khonsu said:
We should get Elizabeth into the war against Mao. Give her guilds if necessary. If she does go into it as a favor, we can trade her guilds for compass and music, perhaps; we need the latter for our UU. Speaking of, given the decision to research nationalism, I take it we are on our way directly to military tradition?

I believe I checked to see if she would even consider it, and I don't think she would. Is there a chance we can match any of her civics to raise the likelihood she might?

Ankh-f-n-Khonsu · Jun 7, 2007

Gunpowder is on the way to military tradition, so I agree Welnic's is a good plan to switch to gunpowder and pick that up before completing nationalism -- I didn't take the couple of messages above mine into account, since we were all writing at the same time and I hadn't seen them... Note, though, that elephants are also a good counter, and cost 25% less. More elephants might be better than fewer muskets; but yes, still a good idea to pick up gunpowder before nationalism. Perhaps we can continue building elephants (and cats!) while drafting muskets. Bonus: elephants can be upgraded to cossacks.

Liz's favorite civic is free religion. Since she's not presently running that, in fact cannot do so, we can't gain diplo points via that route. If you (dojoboy) tried to contact Liz about this, it was 11-20 turns ago, so definitely worth looking into again. We didn't have guilds to use as a bribe at the time, and her animosity toward Mao may have deepened as well. Let's check it out.

MacLordsv01 ~ By Any Means Necessary

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