MacLordsv01 ~ By Any Means Necessary
- Thread starter dojoboy
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Welnic
Emperor
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Moscow has 29 hammers if it is making a unit. It is also a commerce city, so we need to make buildings in there to take advantage of that. St. Petersburg has 49 hammers when making a unit. It doesn't have any other purpose, and it will grow and make more hammers. Why is there a military instructor in Moscow?
Yaroslavl' is making a maceman without a barracks.
There are workers around Yakutsk chopping jungle instead of putting a mine on the copper for 1F 5H.
We need to make sure that the GP from Yekaterinburg pops before the GE/GS from Moscow or we'll have another 25 turns of running priests in Yekaterinburg.
There is no need to guard the iron around New Kerk as we have another source. We might as well run the workers back if they can't work around there.
I think that as soon as the GP pops we should go to full war civics. Police State, Nationhood, Slavery, Mercantilism, Theocracy. Police State will help with WW and unit production. Nationhood has +2 happy for barracks, and we can start drafting Musketmen. Augustus is the only person trading with us anyway, and he will go to Mercantilism once he gets it anyway. We change 4 things and anarchy will last 3 turns.
Yaroslavl' is making a maceman without a barracks.
There are workers around Yakutsk chopping jungle instead of putting a mine on the copper for 1F 5H.
We need to make sure that the GP from Yekaterinburg pops before the GE/GS from Moscow or we'll have another 25 turns of running priests in Yekaterinburg.
There is no need to guard the iron around New Kerk as we have another source. We might as well run the workers back if they can't work around there.
I think that as soon as the GP pops we should go to full war civics. Police State, Nationhood, Slavery, Mercantilism, Theocracy. Police State will help with WW and unit production. Nationhood has +2 happy for barracks, and we can start drafting Musketmen. Augustus is the only person trading with us anyway, and he will go to Mercantilism once he gets it anyway. We change 4 things and anarchy will last 3 turns.
Ankh-f-n-Khonsu
forth-speaker of Mentu
Got the save. I hope to have time to look it over and post a plan this afternoon, and play it tomorrow or later tonight.
Ankh-f-n-Khonsu
forth-speaker of Mentu
Not much to plan here. We need to churn out more military, just as is already queued. Definitely need more siege, I think that ought to be a priority. As current queue orders complete I'll start throwing more trebs into the mix.
Yes, Yaroslavl should have a barracks; I'll load that in before the mace I suppose. I see nothing we can do about Moscow's unhappiness that doesn't involve a change in civics, and I agree with Welnic that full war civics are the way to go at present. Why wait for the birth of the GP, though? I'm missing the connection. In any event, Moscow's engineer will work a plains forest for a few turns to safeguard Yek's prophet.
I'll let the knight finish in Novgorod, since there's an investment already, but I think we have enough horsemen. Once we deal with our happiness issues, we should send Istanbul's artist to work the silk plantation and pick up that sack of coinage. In fact, once happiness is dealt with (again, the civics change) all of the cities' workers will need to be reconsidered.
I'm inclined to work the plains mine in Rostov while this war is underway. The population will stagnate, but we'll have immediate access to four more hammers rather than adding a hammer at infrequent intervals. Copper mine in Yakutsk, check.
Resource deals with Gandhi and Augustus should be re-negotiated; we ought to be able to pick up 4gpt. The only risk with Augustus is that rice is the only surplus of ours he wants; with some regularity I've seen some leader lose interest in a resource during the few seconds between its removal as a trade and the request to trade it again. We may, in other words, end up losing 3gpt from him, instead of picking up an extra 2gpt.
Yes, Yaroslavl should have a barracks; I'll load that in before the mace I suppose. I see nothing we can do about Moscow's unhappiness that doesn't involve a change in civics, and I agree with Welnic that full war civics are the way to go at present. Why wait for the birth of the GP, though? I'm missing the connection. In any event, Moscow's engineer will work a plains forest for a few turns to safeguard Yek's prophet.
I'll let the knight finish in Novgorod, since there's an investment already, but I think we have enough horsemen. Once we deal with our happiness issues, we should send Istanbul's artist to work the silk plantation and pick up that sack of coinage. In fact, once happiness is dealt with (again, the civics change) all of the cities' workers will need to be reconsidered.
I'm inclined to work the plains mine in Rostov while this war is underway. The population will stagnate, but we'll have immediate access to four more hammers rather than adding a hammer at infrequent intervals. Copper mine in Yakutsk, check.
Resource deals with Gandhi and Augustus should be re-negotiated; we ought to be able to pick up 4gpt. The only risk with Augustus is that rice is the only surplus of ours he wants; with some regularity I've seen some leader lose interest in a resource during the few seconds between its removal as a trade and the request to trade it again. We may, in other words, end up losing 3gpt from him, instead of picking up an extra 2gpt.
Welnic
Emperor
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I was thinking about the prophet traveling to Novgorod during the anarchy, but that is not a good enough reason to wait. Plus if we do it right away then all of the units currently in the queue will get the +2 XP.
If an AI civ has found another source for a resource, then they don't cancel their current trade with you. They will cancel if there is some kind of political change, but not if they no longer need the resource. So when you cancel the trade they have no interest in that resource anymore.
Since we may still have to deal with big Chinese offensive stacks, we should probably lean toward building cats instead of trebs. Trebs are better for actually attacking cities, but cats are better for defensive use since they are a little more effective in open ground and they are cheaper.
If an AI civ has found another source for a resource, then they don't cancel their current trade with you. They will cancel if there is some kind of political change, but not if they no longer need the resource. So when you cancel the trade they have no interest in that resource anymore.
Since we may still have to deal with big Chinese offensive stacks, we should probably lean toward building cats instead of trebs. Trebs are better for actually attacking cities, but cats are better for defensive use since they are a little more effective in open ground and they are cheaper.
Ankh-f-n-Khonsu
forth-speaker of Mentu
Good point on the cats; I'm so used to going on the offensive I almost never build cats once trebs are available, but you're quite right. A bit of a mix, perhaps; a few trebs wouldn't be bad to take back Carthage, with cats going in after to help defend it against future Chinese stacks.
So I'm going to switch to the military civs immediately. I think it's worth risking that Augustus hasn't got any other rice, and try to renegotiate. Thanks for the details on the mechanics of that, Welnic.
I'll play in about 10-12 hours unless there's some serious disagreement with the plan above that hasn't yet been aired.
So I'm going to switch to the military civs immediately. I think it's worth risking that Augustus hasn't got any other rice, and try to renegotiate. Thanks for the details on the mechanics of that, Welnic.
I'll play in about 10-12 hours unless there's some serious disagreement with the plan above that hasn't yet been aired.
Ankh-f-n-Khonsu
forth-speaker of Mentu
Turn 0: Queue barracks ahead of maceman. Move Moscow's engineer to plains forest. Stagnate Rostov by working the plains mine. Instruct Yakutsk's worker to build copper mine. Send New Kerk's workers away from the front to clear jungle &c. Renegotiate resource deals with Augustus and Gandhi, netting an additional 4gpt -- switched Gandhi from horses to pig as well. Revolution!
Turn 1: Chinese and Carthaginian knights move on New Kerk, pillaging along the way. Manuever triremes to create a pair north and south.
Turn 2: Gandhi requests gunpowder for divine right and 30g. Declined. Carthaginian knight kills one of our macemen. Our knight kills his knight. Incoming Chinese elephant and cat. With one pikeman I'm feeling extremely vulnerable; holing up in New Kerk.
Turn 3: Revolution complete. Note that we saved 11gpt in civics costs. Gandhi urges us to adopt Buddhism. Declined, despite that the wages of sin are death. Weaken stack of enemy horses with treb. Followed with our pikeman, who died despite 75% odds. Both enemy horses then destroyed by our knights.
Turn 4: Elizabeth offers 210g for gunpowder. Declined. Enemy forces gathering on hill.
Turn 5: Foolish enemy maceman steps off hill, and is slain by knight. Various reinforcements are finally heading toward the front. Engineer put back into place in Moscow.
Turn 6: Enemy cat reduces defenses in New Kirk.
Turn 7: Enemy siege reduce defenses in New Kirk. Currently a treb, cat and two elephants on hill NE of NK. That's nothing. The following Chinese units are incoming: Knights (2), Horse Archers (4), War Elephants (3), Trebs (2), Maceman (1). Promoting garrisoned NK units in anticipation of attack. Axeman upgraded to maceman; there may be better units to spend our money on, but right now we need all we can get. Btw, contrary to what I wrote in my plan, I'm not building any trebs, just cats.
Turn 8: Enemy cat attacks city, withdraws after inflicting zero damage to bowman. We lose a knight vs. knight at 80% odds. Another knight finishes off the enemy, natch. The RNG is not being kind. GP is born! and sets off for Novgorod. Two priests are reassigned as scientists. Two others are set to farm. NE is completed; work is begun on forge for the engineer slot.
Turn 9: Enemy assault. We lost our maceman and bowman, but destroyed two trebs, a knight, an elephant, and a maceman. China now has six elephants, four horse archers, two cats, one treb, and one serious grudge on the NE hill. I attack with our last treb, which loses of course but at least does a touch of collateral damage.
Turn 10: Enemy assault. We lost three knights; they lost a cat and two elephants. We're down to a healthy cat (just arrived) and pikeman, three injured knights, and one near-dead pikeman. This against four elephants, four horse archers, one treb and one cat, with another Chinese elephant and treb approaching. Our own reinforcements are finally approaching Istanbul, from which they'll presumably be sent to NK, if there still is such a place. On a positive note, Mani founded the Kong Miao in Novgorod, worth 13gpt at present.
Turn 1: Chinese and Carthaginian knights move on New Kerk, pillaging along the way. Manuever triremes to create a pair north and south.
Turn 2: Gandhi requests gunpowder for divine right and 30g. Declined. Carthaginian knight kills one of our macemen. Our knight kills his knight. Incoming Chinese elephant and cat. With one pikeman I'm feeling extremely vulnerable; holing up in New Kerk.
Turn 3: Revolution complete. Note that we saved 11gpt in civics costs. Gandhi urges us to adopt Buddhism. Declined, despite that the wages of sin are death. Weaken stack of enemy horses with treb. Followed with our pikeman, who died despite 75% odds. Both enemy horses then destroyed by our knights.
Turn 4: Elizabeth offers 210g for gunpowder. Declined. Enemy forces gathering on hill.
Turn 5: Foolish enemy maceman steps off hill, and is slain by knight. Various reinforcements are finally heading toward the front. Engineer put back into place in Moscow.
Turn 6: Enemy cat reduces defenses in New Kirk.
Turn 7: Enemy siege reduce defenses in New Kirk. Currently a treb, cat and two elephants on hill NE of NK. That's nothing. The following Chinese units are incoming: Knights (2), Horse Archers (4), War Elephants (3), Trebs (2), Maceman (1). Promoting garrisoned NK units in anticipation of attack. Axeman upgraded to maceman; there may be better units to spend our money on, but right now we need all we can get. Btw, contrary to what I wrote in my plan, I'm not building any trebs, just cats.
Turn 8: Enemy cat attacks city, withdraws after inflicting zero damage to bowman. We lose a knight vs. knight at 80% odds. Another knight finishes off the enemy, natch. The RNG is not being kind. GP is born! and sets off for Novgorod. Two priests are reassigned as scientists. Two others are set to farm. NE is completed; work is begun on forge for the engineer slot.
Turn 9: Enemy assault. We lost our maceman and bowman, but destroyed two trebs, a knight, an elephant, and a maceman. China now has six elephants, four horse archers, two cats, one treb, and one serious grudge on the NE hill. I attack with our last treb, which loses of course but at least does a touch of collateral damage.
Turn 10: Enemy assault. We lost three knights; they lost a cat and two elephants. We're down to a healthy cat (just arrived) and pikeman, three injured knights, and one near-dead pikeman. This against four elephants, four horse archers, one treb and one cat, with another Chinese elephant and treb approaching. Our own reinforcements are finally approaching Istanbul, from which they'll presumably be sent to NK, if there still is such a place. On a positive note, Mani founded the Kong Miao in Novgorod, worth 13gpt at present.
dojoboy
Tsalagi
Order of Play:
dojoboy (UTC -5) - on deck
willpax (UTC -5) - warming up
Welnic (UTC -7)
Aoxomoxoa (UTC -8)
Ankh-f-n-Khonsu (UTC -8) - just finished
Onagan (UTC +1) - up
dojoboy (UTC -5) - on deck
willpax (UTC -5) - warming up
Welnic (UTC -7)
Aoxomoxoa (UTC -8)
Ankh-f-n-Khonsu (UTC -8) - just finished
Onagan (UTC +1) - up
Onagan
The Dutch
I didn't pay much attention last week. So now my turn, I have a question. Keep fighting or go for peace.
I will try to post a plan asap.
I will try to post a plan asap.
dojoboy
Tsalagi
I really feel we can weather the storm here and take advantage in the end. But, let's all check out the recent save and, together, provide Onagan a solid approach for the next 10 turns.
willpax
Warlord
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I'm hoping to learn a lot more about managing warfare by playing this group game. It's one area in which I am very weak. So take whatever advice I have with that in mind.
We are currently #1 in production, so, given time, we should be able to build our way out of this mess. We are also part of a fragile bloc (Ghandi, Caesar, Liz) who are divided by religion but united in their dislike of Mao. Caesar should be bribable with techs if we can make him a little friendlier, but that will take some time.
The situation around New Kerik looks dire. The RNG Gods are indeed fickle, but I don't see how the city withstands an all-out assault on the next turn. It might be bloody for Mao, but the city falls with 2-3 units for garrison, and there isn't much we can do about it (the mace might get lucky, but we would be relying on extreme luck in that case).
So here's the case for peace at the price of the city: we will probably lose the city anyway, and this way we keep the units and have 10 turns of frantic building to repair our army for another assault. We don't take a huge diplomatic hit from a subsequent declaration, because they don't like Mao anyway. If we can be generous with our trades and gifts, we might even get an ally or two (Rome threatening Mao's southern flank would help us immensely).
The down side: as a hill city, New Kerik is the most defensible ground on the front. Taking it back will be a royal PITA. The most immediate turn is dire, but we have more pikes in there within 2 turns, making keeping the city much more likely. and the AI has often been known to not press an advantage brutally enough; with lots of wounded units, Mao may rest a turn or two, letting us reinforce the city.
I don't quite know what I've talked myself into.
We are currently #1 in production, so, given time, we should be able to build our way out of this mess. We are also part of a fragile bloc (Ghandi, Caesar, Liz) who are divided by religion but united in their dislike of Mao. Caesar should be bribable with techs if we can make him a little friendlier, but that will take some time.
The situation around New Kerik looks dire. The RNG Gods are indeed fickle, but I don't see how the city withstands an all-out assault on the next turn. It might be bloody for Mao, but the city falls with 2-3 units for garrison, and there isn't much we can do about it (the mace might get lucky, but we would be relying on extreme luck in that case).
So here's the case for peace at the price of the city: we will probably lose the city anyway, and this way we keep the units and have 10 turns of frantic building to repair our army for another assault. We don't take a huge diplomatic hit from a subsequent declaration, because they don't like Mao anyway. If we can be generous with our trades and gifts, we might even get an ally or two (Rome threatening Mao's southern flank would help us immensely).
The down side: as a hill city, New Kerik is the most defensible ground on the front. Taking it back will be a royal PITA. The most immediate turn is dire, but we have more pikes in there within 2 turns, making keeping the city much more likely. and the AI has often been known to not press an advantage brutally enough; with lots of wounded units, Mao may rest a turn or two, letting us reinforce the city.
I don't quite know what I've talked myself into.
Ankh-f-n-Khonsu
forth-speaker of Mentu
The very next turn is indeed the most dire. Sorry, Onagan. 
But I say to hell with peace at the price of the city. As you note, willpax, we're #1 in production. If we do lose all our troops, it will hopefully mean Mao has also lost a fair number. We'll rebuild ours faster although I wonder if the AI bonus of faster troops is reflected in the production graph.
Whether we give him the city, or lose it to him, we'll have to go through the hassle of taking it back. If we can hold out for even one more turn, we may get enough reinforcements in there to halt the assault. (Going by memory, can't load the save at present.) I pity the Carthaginian plebes living in that city, regardless of how this turns out. They must be a distressed lot.
Don't forget to hit the enemy stack with our lone cat, first thing. Occurred to me last night again, I haven't verified this that there probably isn't a medic in the city. That's a shame. If the city survives the next turn or two, send one in or promote internally.
But I say to hell with peace at the price of the city. As you note, willpax, we're #1 in production. If we do lose all our troops, it will hopefully mean Mao has also lost a fair number. We'll rebuild ours faster although I wonder if the AI bonus of faster troops is reflected in the production graph.
Whether we give him the city, or lose it to him, we'll have to go through the hassle of taking it back. If we can hold out for even one more turn, we may get enough reinforcements in there to halt the assault. (Going by memory, can't load the save at present.) I pity the Carthaginian plebes living in that city, regardless of how this turns out. They must be a distressed lot.
Don't forget to hit the enemy stack with our lone cat, first thing. Occurred to me last night again, I haven't verified this that there probably isn't a medic in the city. That's a shame. If the city survives the next turn or two, send one in or promote internally.
Welnic
Emperor
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I can't load the save until later, and I forgot to look at it last night. I would assume that Mao would still accept peace if we give him the city. So it is an issue of whether we hurt him having him take the city or just give it to him. If we give it to him then we don't have to worry about the same thing happening soon to Istanbul. We do not want pillaging around Istanbul.
Just reading the list of forces it doesn't sound good. They hit us with the siege units, wear the pikeman down with the HAs, then finish off the knights with the elephants. But, if New Kerk still has some defense, the siege units would probably try to reduce that. If that is the case then we would get some healing in and our cat could at least get a blow in. Having a cat getting attacked is just a terrible thing.
Rereading it sounds like the defenses have already been reduced. Maybe we should run and keep cranking those pikemen. If they have this many mounted units then maybe CR2 pikemen are the way to go.
Just reading the list of forces it doesn't sound good. They hit us with the siege units, wear the pikeman down with the HAs, then finish off the knights with the elephants. But, if New Kerk still has some defense, the siege units would probably try to reduce that. If that is the case then we would get some healing in and our cat could at least get a blow in. Having a cat getting attacked is just a terrible thing.
Rereading it sounds like the defenses have already been reduced. Maybe we should run and keep cranking those pikemen. If they have this many mounted units then maybe CR2 pikemen are the way to go.
Welnic
Emperor
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Looking at the save, I think we should fight. The Cat in New Kerk has movement. It should promote to Barrage II and attack. Cats aren't worth anything for defense, so it should go ahead and do something constructive. Some of the enemy units are already damaged. The Longbow that is being built in New Kerk will be around for the action next turn also. Istanbul should draft a Musketman, he will be there next turn. We have a lot of units heading there, even if we lose the city he doesn't have anything around there that gets a defensive bonus. He also doesn't have roads to get to the city on, and we will be able to travel on roads until the New Kerk exits revolt.
We could also draft in Novgorod and Yaraslavl'. Yekaterinburg should go ahead and whip the forge and start an engineer specialist. New Kerk should continue to build Longbows if we hold it. They are great for hill cities. If the unhappiness start getting out of hand we should start cranking the luxury slider, that is what it is for.
We could also draft in Novgorod and Yaraslavl'. Yekaterinburg should go ahead and whip the forge and start an engineer specialist. New Kerk should continue to build Longbows if we hold it. They are great for hill cities. If the unhappiness start getting out of hand we should start cranking the luxury slider, that is what it is for.
Ankh-f-n-Khonsu
forth-speaker of Mentu
You've obviously never partied in Istanbul. 
I'll be out of town from Thursday through Tuesday -- going to take a stroll through a bit of Sierra Nevada. Feel free to skip me if my turn comes up, although that seems unlikely.
And I still say let's stand our ground.
I'll be out of town from Thursday through Tuesday -- going to take a stroll through a bit of Sierra Nevada. Feel free to skip me if my turn comes up, although that seems unlikely.
And I still say let's stand our ground.
dojoboy
Tsalagi
Sorry for my absence in this discussion over the night. I agree w/ instituting the draft. Even if New Kerk is lost, Mao's force will be too depleted to hold it once we those units arrive.
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