magic and 1.4

[IlikeTanks]

Heya guys, just looking for yours (and valks) take on the magic in 1.4 Im going to say, for the most part, i like orbis and WoM. But NOT that magic. Talk about impotent mages and amurties for that matter. In orbis, fireball cant kills so that your horrible melee has to go in, and in WoM just the progression is wonky and fireballs take mana? and still cant kill? Why not just play bannor! So please keep wizards useful in 1.4 for killing

 

[shoggi]

You may want to read this blog post here:
urlremoved/rife/blog/2010/08/05/magic-revisited/
This outlines many aspects of what we plan to do with the magic system.

 

[Valkrionn]

Magic may actually end up more potent, but it will have a cost. You won't have 500 fireballs a turn but the ones you have will hit hard. Summons will be similarly buffed; strengths won't be hugely different, but with the addition of the willpower system each caster will be able to support several at one time.

Basically, you won't be casting dozens of spells in a turn, or have infinite mages. The spells you do have, however, will matter.

 

[Derf]

I'm not entirely convinced after reading up on the blog entry about it... it does seem to take ideas from MoM that I'm not entirely favourable about (mana per turn in some form and the loss of significance on improved nodes)...
But I'm also intrigued, it also seems like a better approach coming from both FFH and from MoM to me. I'll be waiting to try it out with interest... if nothing else to see how easily I can break it! For the purposes of de-bugging it, of course...

 

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Will it also have this odd mana degeneration from MoM?

 

[Valkrionn]

I'm not entirely convinced after reading up on the blog entry about it... it does seem to take ideas from MoM that I'm not entirely favourable about (mana per turn in some form and the loss of significance on improved nodes)...
But I'm also intrigued, it also seems like a better approach coming from both FFH and from MoM to me. I'll be waiting to try it out with interest... if nothing else to see how easily I can break it! For the purposes of de-bugging it, of course...

For what it's worth: MoM and RifE were both inspired by the same place. My plans come from well before Sephi announced anything, it's not taking ideas from MoM.

Second, improved nodes will remain very important; Our system will continue to require that mana type for the spell to be cast, or learned. Unimproved nodes, however, will have the potential to generate increased amounts of mana... Forcing a tradeoff between a wide variety of spell types, or a few specific spells but more mana to cast them with.

Will it also have this odd mana degeneration from MoM?

What mana degeneration? I haven't played MoM.

 

[Derf]

The degeneration I think he's talking about is for their implementation of the mana per turn. You lose, I believe about 5% of your total mana per turn, as I understand it so you don't end up with massive amounts of mana.
If you're putting a cap on the maximum mana you can have available though, you won't need to put something like that in.
Might I suggest traits (like Arcane) or buildings that raise the cap? Not in significant amounts, but it would allow the civs with more of an affinity for magic like Amurites and Mekara to show off that affinity a tad more because they're speciailising in it.

 

[Valkrionn]

The degeneration I think he's talking about is for their implementation of the mana per turn. You lose, I believe about 5% of your total mana per turn, as I understand it so you don't end up with massive amounts of mana.
If you're putting a cap on the maximum mana you can have available though, you won't need to put something like that in.
Might I suggest traits (like Arcane) or buildings that raise the cap? Not in significant amounts, but it would allow the civs with more of an affinity for magic like Amurites and Mekara to show off that affinity a tad more because they're speciailising in it.

Yeah, we just have a cap. Same rationale, though. I don't want to have a situation where ignoring magic all game can leave your civilization a magical superpower late game.

And yes, I could see doing that. Arcane and Summoner will both increase mana generation already, and each will also impact different sides of mana use; Either Capacity (amount of mana a unit can channel each turn) or Willpower (number of summons a unit can control at one time).

 

[ArkhanTheBlack]

If magic is implemented well, there won't be a need for either a mana cap or mana degeneration.
Usefull spells are the best protection against mana stockpiling.

In Master of Magic I was usually converting huge amounts of gold to mana because you could do so much with magic that mana was never enough. Same with DOM3 magic crystals. There's always a big, expensive monster to summon, an even more expensive item to create or to cast a powerfull world spell. The upkeep costs of spells also made sure that having mana overflow was almost impossible.

 

[Valkrionn]

If magic is implemented well, there won't be a need for either a mana cap or mana degeneration.
Usefull spells are the best protection against mana stockpiling.

In Master of Magic I was usually converting huge amounts of gold to mana because you could do so much with magic that mana was never enough. Same with DOM3 magic crystals. There's always a big, expensive monster to summon, an even more expensive item to create or to cast a powerfull world spell. The upkeep costs of spells also made sure that having mana overflow was almost impossible.

The issue comes when you do nothing with mana but stockpile it, and then unleash it all at once on multiple fronts, causing HUGE devastation.

As cool as that idea is, it's just too unbalancing. I don't want to allow it.

That said: I'm going to try and keep the cap high enough that if you use mana normally, you won't hit it. It should only become a factor if you completely ignore the mechanic (rather, if you set out to abuse the mechanic; If you ignore it entirely, your mana generation will be so low you still won't be at the cap.

I also doubt you'll be able to convert gold into mana.

 

[ArkhanTheBlack]

The issue comes when you do nothing with mana but stockpile it, and then unleash it all at once on multiple fronts, causing HUGE devastation.

Well Master of Magic wouldn't have been such a master piece if magic abuse would have been so easy. There was a magic power skill that limits the use of mana crystals per turn and/or battle. This skill could be increased by investing part of your mana income into it. However each point more is more expensive than the last one.
Without a good magic power skill a big mana pool was completely useless because you couldn't use all the magic crystals in a turn.
The true 'art' was finding the right balance of investing the mana income into spell research, magic pool and magic power.

Actually, a gold cap would probably be more important. I think upgrading 100 archers into 100 Nyxkin in one turn is currently no problem in FFH2 and could be considered as extremely unbalanced. If you have reached your research target (usually a powerfull unit) you can shut down your research and gain huge amounts of gold, so this scenario is definitely possible.

I also doubt you'll be able to convert gold into mana.

It wasn't meant as a suggestion just as an example from Master of Magic.
I'm not sure if this would even work so easy in the FFH2 system.

 

[Valkrionn]

The first part would be the role of Capacity; Each unit has a set Capacity (increased by promotions) which determines the amount of mana you can channel through that unit each turn. You'll be investing in to Global Spells, City Spells, and Unit Spells all at the same time, many of which are maintained. Like I said: The cap shouldn't play too much of a role, it exists for the extreme cases. It's mostly there to prevent you from amassing dozens of units (as each unit has it's own Capacity) and then unleashing top tier spells all at once.


And you may have a point about the gold cap. Highly doubtful I'd tack it on at this point though; Too many things default to gold.

 

[Derf]

One question the idea of City-spells has given me, and a part of the MoM system I actually do like - those spells that add a temporary building to a city (Wall of Stone, Growth, Inspiration, Hope and others) - would those be castable by the city, and cost an upkeep in mana like summons?

 

[Torugu]

Will adepts gain experience from casting spells? I remember you saying that this might be another way to ensure that civs who actually use their mana are better at magic than those who just stockpile it.

 

[Aline]

Is this basicly what MoM did?

 

[Derf]

It's similar in some ways, but from how it seems to me so far, I don't think it is.
The only real way to tell is to wait for it to become available, play it and see. But I'm still fairly certain that there's just a few similarities only.

 

[Valkrionn]

One question the idea of City-spells has given me, and a part of the MoM system I actually do like - those spells that add a temporary building to a city (Wall of Stone, Growth, Inspiration, Hope and others) - would those be castable by the city, and cost an upkeep in mana like summons?

Absolutely. No casters will be stuck in a city maintaining these spells.

Similarly, Haste and other buff spells will become Aura effects, and cost a set amount of mana each turn (channeled by the caster, so reducing his capacity; Keep that in mind when it's available!). The cost of the initial casting will be higher than the maintenance, of course, and it will affect all tiles immediately surrounding the adept (so up to 9 tiles, including the center tile), playing much nicer with xUPT.

Will adepts gain experience from casting spells? I remember you saying that this might be another way to ensure that civs who actually use their mana are better at magic than those who just stockpile it.

Possible. I really want to implement it, but the potential issue is that you could simply cast spells at nothing, and gain xp. However, with the mana system in place, I hope the potential cost makes that exploit negligible.

We may have to choose between free xp and casting xp.

Is this basicly what MoM did?

If by that, you mean a global mana pool and spells requiring mana to cast, yes.

If you mean anything more specific, no.

1. We will not have spell research; I don't care for it, nor do I like the way it makes the mana types less important.
2. We will absolutely not make summons units that you want in the rear of your army! I despise that idea, summons are meant to be expendable and will remain that way. Our implementation actually makes all summons permanent, but cost Willpower; Each caster has a set amount of Willpower, which can be "taken up" by summons (meaning, Willpower does not regenerate, but is never lost. Kill the summon and the willpower it used is regained, instantly), such that mages can control multiple summons. A strong archmage who specializes in summoning... Could probably control a small army, but it's going to take a long time to summon them.
3. We will not reorganize mana spheres into "Light", "Dark", and "Elemental". We will preserve the four schools of Alteration, Divination, Elementalism, and Necromancy, and will allow mages to specialize in these schools.

I'm sure I could find other differences, but I have quite honestly never played MoM. Nor do I even have it installed. Our concepts are our own, generally spawned from discussion on #erebus.

In this case however, much of the root system is taken from discussions in the Fall Further team forum, from before it died off. We owe a huge amount to that team.

It's similar in some ways, but from how it seems to me so far, I don't think it is.
The only real way to tell is to wait for it to become available, play it and see. But I'm still fairly certain that there's just a few similarities only.

Yep, similarities at a surface level only.

 

[KamikazeFTW]

We will absolutely not make summons units that you want in the rear of your army! I despise that idea, summons are meant to be expendable and will remain that way.

Thank you sooo much for not doing that! I gagged when I was playing and realized my summons were not coming anytime soon

 

[Valkrionn]

They WILL require upkeep, in the form of both Willpower and Mana, but in return are permanent....

But yes. Summons will be summoned by the caster, as they have been, and should generally be at the front of the army.

 

[Verdian]

Is this basicly what MoM did?

The change to magic was the main reason I stopped playing MoM. My main problem was that in my favorite mode, One City Challenge, magic was suddenly worthless due to a horribly low mana income rate. Even when I played normally, mana trickled in to the point that I couldn't do anything with it. It made casters very weak, and I never had anything to do with them. Poor Amurites... Also, the crazy amount of upgrades that were added for the Arcane line seemed worthless and confusing.

Perhaps RiFE will handle it better. Worse comes to worse, I will just play 1.3 forever.