Make Like A Tree And Leaf!

What about those people that climb trees and "protest?"

  • They're protesting for their beliefs.

    Votes: 25 75.8%
  • They're breaking the law and sabotaging progress.

    Votes: 8 24.2%

  • Total voters
    33
"Slowing down progress" is a bit ridiculous, anyway. I've seen how construction/destruction workers waste time.

I do hope we figure out some way to save the forest from being over run. I would like to think we are past the point where we'd use them all up, but I ain't sure...
 
Natural capitalism, green economics, etc..... is the only way people like rmsharpe and Greenpeace can remain happy. However, the people that tend to be resistant to change (i.e. corporate America) halter this 'progress' Mr. Sharpe evidently supports.
 
Corporate America is more resistant to change than Greenpeace?

Corporate R&D centers around the world are trying to perfect a system that would make burning fuel obsolete. Greenpeace is bent on imposing left-wing environemental sanctions on all of our lives.
 
:rolleyes:

Bush could reverse pollution this year with fuel mileage legislation, but he gives us instead a plan for "hydrogen cars fifteen years from now". Who is resisting change in that equation?

There is alot more resistence to change when you can make money with the status quo versus say, saving the world for future generations.
 
Mr. Bush is very good at promising change by 2018 - especially since his reelection term, if he is reelected, will end in 2009.

Just to put that in perspective, by the time those hydrogen cars are in the showroom as the President predicts, rmsharpe will be 32 years old.

Scary thought, isn't it :p
 
Sharpe, compagnies MUST in Belgium if they pollute ground build sanitations(dont know how its called in English).Thats good
WE all must work for a better ecology becuase like were now doing the animals are screwed.And it will effect you.
Do you wanna have no musquitos or a horde of musquitos?
if you help the ecology=less muquitos.And thats just one of the benifits
 
tis folly o be wise.

I for one support all forms of non-violent protest. Tree Dwellers as I have heard them called are perfectly acceptable, even if the land is private I would support their right to protest. Clear cutting old growth forests is wrong, selective cutting is an economic alternative. Clear cutting new forests may also have bad effects. When ever an ecosystem is changed there is potential for harm to all living organisms. Progress is not sabotaged if a logging company is delayed by tree dwellers. The main thoughts on Urban Planning in the USA are in curbing urban sprawl, with the use of mixed land uses and higher density residential zoning to help conserve natural and rural areas. Import taxes should be taken off of lumber cut outside of the USA (sorry to all the canadians, but you guys have alot more lumber) to decrease the cost while preserving our old growth forests and planting new ones.
 
Originally posted by CommiePlanner
Import taxes should be taken off of lumber cut outside of the USA (sorry to all the canadians, but you guys have alot more lumber)

USA import taxes on lumber from Canada??

What about NAFTA??

Seems the Candians have been well suckered.
 
i think there is no question they are protesting their beliefs, it's just their beliefs are illegal and sabotaging progress.
 
Originally posted by Sultan Bhargash
:rolleyes:

Bush could reverse pollution this year with fuel mileage legislation, but he gives us instead a plan for "hydrogen cars fifteen years from now". Who is resisting change in that equation?

There is alot more resistence to change when you can make money with the status quo versus say, saving the world for future generations.

It is amazing that you fellow have absolutely no long term vision. We have already removed over 90% of the pollutants that used to be spewed from cars and smole stacks. There are new alternatives available for consumers to use (such as hybrid-electric) that overcome the short comings of electric only or gasoline only cars. The CAFE was raised, it just wasn't raised as much as the environmentalist wanted. They also didn't get the reclassification of SUVs and Mini-Vans from light trucks to cars.

The hybris electrics are starting to catch on and they make a very good bridge between gasoline and hygrogen. I am personnally waiting for Ford to put out its hybrid electric SUV this year, as that will be my next vehicle.

The resistance to change comes not from the lack of elctric vehicles, but from the consumers themselves. Electric vehicles lack the ability to go n long trips, must be recharged (at what maybe bad times), and are a lot smaller and less confortable than a tradition car. The poeple voted against them with their dollars, even though the US was giving tax breaks to buy one.

The hybrids have none of those negatives. Although they can power really large vehicles, they can get into the mid-range (hence Ford using it in a small SUV and Toyota using it in a smaller 4-door sedan). People are voting for these in spite of the fact that there is no government subsidy for them, by actually buying them.

Just because he didn't do as much as you wanted doesn't mean he didn't do anything. It kinda reminds me of the time they accused the Republicans of cutting medicare payments just because they only wanted a 4% increase instead of the 7% increase that had been put in the year before. By increasing it less, you actually cut it! (BTW, 4% was above inflation at the time, just to head that one off).

America has changed a lot of things in the last 30 years. Better cars, less emmissions from factories, recycling, better packaging to elimate more things flowing into landfills and less dependance on trees for essential items. Instead of laminting the fact that you didn't get everything you desired, praise the progress that has been made and accept the victory (no matter how small you my think it). We don't disagree on the fact that we need to do things better, what we do disagree on is the time table and how mush of our current economy we are willing to wreck to get there quicker.
 
I agree with Meldor: I wish there was a place to vote both.

It's obviously against the law, and it's obviously their sincere beliefs.
 
Your right about that Edward, we were suckered by NAFTA. Softwood lumber has heavy tariffs on it
 
Man, meldor, where have they been hiding you?

As you can imagin, I agree with him and Remorseless. Not all situations can be handled with moderation (like foreign policy), but ecology vs. progress usually can. And besides, as dollars are the first and formost ballot and the first democracy was free enterprise. (No serious offense to CFC's commie and socie populations. To me, corperates are the biggest enemy of the very system that made them, they are the demagogues of democratic economics.) In the end consumers will decide.

Educate the masses, if you wish to gain their support. But don't deride your opponents as if they were the Devil. It may work, but it is too risky. Yes, rmsharpe and newfangle, I'm talking to both of you. (I'm not saying anything to his excellency, the Sultan. We both know he is beyond reason, too wise for anyone's good.)
 
Not sure if you did that on purpose, but it's make like a tree and leave! :p

Anyhow, I think they are protesting for what they believe in - which is usually fine but can sometimes be a bit out of hand. It really all depends on the situation.
 
Originally posted by Cloudyvortex
Educate the masses, if you wish to gain their support. But don't deride your opponents as if they were the Devil. It may work, but it is too risky. Yes, rmsharpe and newfangle, I'm talking to both of you. (I'm not saying anything to his excellency, the Sultan. We both know he is beyond reason, too wise for anyone's good.)

I don't know if I should feel flattered or insulted, Cloudyvortex!

Certainly "too wise for anyone's good" feels like an apt phrase- I am very sure I'm too wise for my own good, as having a certain perspective tends to make engagement with the world difficult.

But to deride your opponents is the wrong way to go in these debates - you automatically turn off the undecideds when you simply demonize your opposition.

For instance, I thought Meldor had a lot of good ideas and comments in that last post but I was initially resistant after being told I had "no long term vision". I have a very different kind of long term vision, but sadly for me, my future doesn't have Bruce Willis in flying taxi cab with a cloned supermodel in it, my future is more like a cross between Soylent Green and Mad Max. Here in the United States, we shouldn't be developing new land, but reconditioning the old. Take the turnpike from Newark New Jersey to New York City and you will see a wasteland of warehouses and slum or totally abandoned tenements. Why on earth should an Oak Forest in the middle of the state be cut down and replaced with a treeless condo development ironically called "Oak Forest"?!

Same goes for the whole environment. It is cheaper to take without giving back, but is it more alarmist to say that limiting the mileage standards would "wreck our economy" (isn't it already pretty much wrecked?) or that not limiting them is going to "use up more fuel faster and hasten armageddon". The fact is, I would like to be reincarnated next century into a world where I could still drive in a gasoline powered car. To achieve that goal, I'd like to see better gas mileage, fewer Monster Truck derbys, no jet skis at all, etc. etc. etc. My selfish vision limits the freedom of others- or does their selfish vision limit my freedom to enjoy unspoiled wilderness, clean air, abundant public transportation, and the ability to see around corners in my tiny honda?
 
There is a big hole in the ozone layer. You can't deny this. This has nothing to do with left/right politics and all this other bull that is talked about here. It is a known fact that agressive deforestation is one of the main causes of this terminal problem. This will, and is, affecting the whole world.
I know a lot of people have a lot of prejudice ideas on what a treehugger is, myself included, that can cloud thier view on the point that they are trying to make.
F**k the law of whatever land, if it was'nt for people protesting like this, they would'nt be getting all the coverage, and the global awareness of this problem. As stupid as it may look, it is just powerless people, useing whatever means they have, to make a powerful point that needs to be addressed.
 
hear hear Gael!

(although some people are happy to deny the hole in the ozone layer, at least till we can get that Mars colony up ;) )

But you are right, there isn't any million dollar corporation out there - or government agency for that matter - trying to protect the environment; just high principled activists. May they receive the Laurel blessings of the original tree-hugger - Apollo!
 
I did not mean you had no long term vision as an insult, what I meant to say is that you can't always get everything you want right now. Sometimes you must take what you can get and come back and fight another day. Your post seemed to indicate that Bush didn't do enough and so the damage was now and forever irreversable.

Ever since the sixties I have been hearing how we have destoryed the environment, that there will be nothing left for our kids. That all the oil in the world would be used up by 1980 or 1990, or 2000, etc. The plain fact is that while things werre pretty bad, they have been getting better ever since. We have more proven oil reserves than we did back then. The rivers and lakes have been cleaned up. There are more hecters of forest today than there was in 1950. this in spite of the efforts of the lumber industry. We use more recycled material and what isn't recyclable is bio-degradable. Detergents no longer contain massive amounts of phosphates, power plants no longer spew sulfer into the air. There are more natrual gas and co-generation plants than there were before and even the coal burning plants produce almost no bad pollutants (yes I know the produce CO2, but it doesn't pollute, even if you want to call it a greenhouse gas).

All of this didn't occur in one day. Ther ewasn't just one piece of legislation that made it happen. It took both effort and eduction to get it done. Once the majority wanted it to be so, it became that way pretty quickly.

My whole point was that the CAFE was increased, maybe not the amount ou wanted this year, but it was a step in the direction you want, and you should except it, and continue to push for more if that is what you want.

If you think anything in any of my posts was intended to insult, I apologize. I do not like those who resort to this and I go back over my posts before I send it to try and delete anything that may be misconstrued. I do except that you and I have some very different views on how things should go in this world, and I except your viewpoint. I try to argue based on the interpretation of facts not the spewing of insults. That I leave to the the good folks in politics.
 
Originally posted by meldor
I did not mean you had no long term vision as an insult, what I meant to say is that you can't always get everything you want right now.


But if you try sometime, you just might find, you get what you need...

Originally posted by meldor

Sometimes you must take what you can get and come back and fight another day. Your post seemed to indicate that Bush didn't do enough and so the damage was now and forever irreversable.


No president ever does enough. Well, Lincoln did as much as he could before he was killed, and Carter did as much as he could before they hid the keys on him somewhere in his first week of office...

Originally posted by meldor

Ever since the sixties I have been hearing how we have destoryed the environment, that there will be nothing left for our kids.


You been around since the sixties? As the Jamaicans say, 'nuff respect. People have been saying that since the 1500s at least. Just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it wont.

Originally posted by meldor

That all the oil in the world would be used up by 1980 or 1990, or 2000, etc.


Somewhere in the 1960s they realized that countries like Brazil and India - then about to enter the first world - needn't hurry that along...

Originally posted by meldor

The plain fact is that while things werre pretty bad, they have been getting better ever since. We have more proven oil reserves than we did back then. The rivers and lakes have been cleaned up. There are more hecters of forest today than there was in 1950. this in spite of the efforts of the lumber industry. We use more recycled material and what isn't recyclable is bio-degradable. Detergents no longer contain massive amounts of phosphates, power plants no longer spew sulfer into the air. There are more natrual gas and co-generation plants than there were before and even the coal burning plants produce almost no bad pollutants (yes I know the produce CO2, but it doesn't pollute, even if you want to call it a greenhouse gas).


I will leave what to call it up to the scientists. I like your optimism, meldor, it is refreshing indeed. These things happened because of activism, btw. And I have heard republicans lament that Bush is rolling back NIXON'S commitment to the environment...

Originally posted by meldor

All of this didn't occur in one day. Ther ewasn't just one piece of legislation that made it happen. It took both effort and eduction to get it done. Once the majority wanted it to be so, it became that way pretty quickly.

My whole point was that the CAFE was increased, maybe not the amount ou wanted this year, but it was a step in the direction you want, and you should except it, and continue to push for more if that is what you want.

If you think anything in any of my posts was intended to insult, I apologize. I do not like those who resort to this and I go back over my posts before I send it to try and delete anything that may be misconstrued. I do except that you and I have some very different views on how things should go in this world, and I except your viewpoint. I try to argue based on the interpretation of facts not the spewing of insults. That I leave to the the good folks in politics.

And respect you meldor, since before you had a custom avatar you have been weighing in intelligently. No problem on the "insult"; another great tactic in these threads- one the mods use all the time- is to pretend you have a thin skin. I am glad of the positive things that have been done for the environment, however far short of duty I think they are. The earth doesn't generate money, jobs, or lobbyists - so it is pretty amazing that anybody does anything to help it. My only concern is for the generations to come, even though I doubt I will contribute to the gene pool of tommorow, I still hope to be reincarnated here once or twice, and I'd like to arrive in something that looks more like modern New Zealand and less like modern India... and I'd like to save everyone else from the dark implications of overpopulation and over-use...
 
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