making spies different

[davidlallen]

I have made some progress on the Reverend Mother missions with sdk changes in my local post-1.7 version.

1. Added new "memory" field for AI. When you look in the diplomatic screen and hover over an AI civ, you see a list of memories, each with a reaction value: "-2: You razed a holy city!" is the holy city memory. I added one to store "BG manipulation". Whenever one of the RM abilities is used, a -1 is added to this memory: "You manipulated me!" I can now add more memories if we agree on the text.

2. Significantly nerfed "convert city": doubled EP cost (now 3000), can no longer convert capital city, city now goes into revolt just like a military conquest, and adds -1 to "BG manipulation" memory. Most importantly, there is a chance the AI will immediately declare war when they lose a city; the chance is 10% times your "BG manipulation" memory. For example, if you have taken 2 cities from them, the chance of them declaring war is 30% when you take the third city.

3. Since "Force Friend" also adds -1 to the manipulation memory, I made it give a +2 reaction. So the net is +1 reaction, same as before. I can now customize the text instead of "past events have been good to us"; but I could not find a good phrase. In fact the point of using Voice is that the victim can't really remember why they did it, so a vague declaration like this one may be the right answer anyway.

4. Added new mission, "Force Enemy". This gives -2 to the existing memory "past events have proved your bad nature to us". When you have a RM in a city of civ A, and you choose this mission, you get a picklist of all the civs you have both met. You pick some civ B from the list, and if the mission succeeds, then A gets a -2 to B, and A gets a -1 to you (due to manipulation).

Next, I will try to modify the assassinate mission. In vanilla, there is a mission to assassinate any unit, but it is switched off in the xml. In super spies, they hijacked this code to allow killing of great people. So I will add a unitcombat field to the mission, and allow assassination of vehicle, mech, hornet and thopter unitcombats. This will be the special "sabotage" mission for Ordos.

Did we ever agree on a special effect for the Face Dancer? Spreading plague is possible, and it fits the "biological" theme for BT. But maybe there is something more interesting.

 

[Xaos]

In the lore, face dancers can mimick anyone perfectly.

They could have a special "Infiltrate" mission that allows them to kill a unit and take it's place.

Another idea is maybe an "Open the gate" mission where they can lower your cities defense to zero for a few turns.

Just some ideas that would be cool that go with their MO.

 

[Ahriman]

In fact the point of using Voice is that the victim can't really remember why they did it, so a vague declaration like this one may be the right answer anyway.

"Force friend" (I still hate that name) was not supposed to be replicating Voice. You can't use voice to control anything more than brief instant muscle, it isn't mind control and it doesn't affect diplomacy.

This ability was supposed to be represent how Bene Gesserits offer sisters to serve the Emperor and various houses as Truthsayers, wives or concubines (eg Moiham, Margot, Jessica). So these Sisters are helping advise the faction, while also working for Bene Gesserit to advance their cause.

I would really like to get back to trying to model that.

So I would remove the manipulation penalty from that effect (they don't get mad at you for lending them advisors) and take it back down to +1 relations permanently.
And I'd rename the ability "Sisterhood Advisors" or something. Or "political marriage".
I like the "maniupulated memory" effect for city stealing, anarchy-causing or city uprisings.

 

[davidlallen]

There are four abilities for the RM: flip city, *civilization* anarchy, force friend and force enemy. We had discussed a few different mechanics but I see we haven't agreed on any of them.

We had discussed some way of settling the RM in a city to get the +1 diplomacy, or having the unit destroyed. This would represent giving an advisor, and this would have no manipulation penalty.

I am thinking of something different, and maybe I am intentionally overlapping it a little bit with Jedi Force. My view is that for any of these abilities, the RM gets into a position where they can create a legal document of some kind, gets to the person in charge, and says "SIGN!" or "AGREE!" or similar. The person signs, creating a binding agreement of whatever it was, but shortly after they regret it. So the effect happens, but the person is angry about it.

We can certainly explore additional missions or other mechanics. If you would like a RM unit destroyed to create the +1 effect, representing permanent loss of the RM to the other civ, that is not hard. If you would like some kind of settlement effect, I guess we could model it that a particular RM gives +1 to a particular civ, as long as it stays in the cultural borders of that civ. Then if it leaves, the bonus stops. Or even converts to a -1, "You took back your advisor!". But that does not really match the way other spy actions work. The other player cannot even see the RM unit, ever, so it would be hard to understand what is happening. What do you think would work better for a spy unit?

Do you feel that the other three unique missions are useful and flavorful, or do you object to them also? What do you suggest instead?

 

[davidlallen]

In the lore, face dancers can mimick anyone perfectly. They could have a special "Infiltrate" mission that allows them to kill a unit and take it's place.

At least five people have suggested that. One person has suggested it is a bad idea. The "ayes" have it. I will try to think of some way to make this work. If playtest feedback is that players do hate it when used against them, we can rethink. But it does seem highly flavorful.

Another idea is maybe an "Open the gate" mission where they can lower your cities defense to zero for a few turns.

This is in the game today. A spy can destroy city walls and cause a revolt; try it out with the strongest spy civilization, Ordos. Others have suggested a specific Harkonnen "traitor" unit, but I don't see the need for specific units or missions. In BBAI 0.82, jdog says the AI will now try hard to do this. There was a "bug" in BBAI preventing DW spies from being effective, but this is fixed in the incremental 1.7.0.4 patch. I think people should start seeing the AI do this to them.

 

[Ahriman]

My view is that for any of these abilities, the RM gets into a position where they can create a legal document of some kind, gets to the person in charge, and says "SIGN!" or "AGREE!" or similar.

This does not makes sense to me. Yes, you could make a person sign a particular piece of paper using Voice. But how would you ever manage to get an important treaty with terms that a senior person did not want to agree to in front of them waiting for signature? And how would you stop them from tearing the paper up 3 seconds later?
Voice is about muscle response. Its not a diplomacy effect. And its not mind control. And Reverend Mothers are not Jedi (which is how this name makes them feel).
Reverend Mothers "exist only to serve". They don't go around ordering Dukes and Emperors to sign particular pieces of paper. They might blackmail them in the in private (eg blackmailing Shaddam to let Leto I win the Trial of Annulment thing vs the Tleilaxu in the prequel) but they don't really use the Voice in public to issue orders.

We had discussed some way of settling the RM in a city to get the +1 diplomacy, or having the unit destroyed. This would represent giving an advisor, and this would have no manipulation penalty.

I feel strongly that the Force Frienship should be replaced with this ability.

I am indifferent whether or not the unit is destroyed (though if it is the effect needs to be more powerful). I could imagine the specific RM settling with the other house, or I could imagine her negotiating a deal where someone else then went (eg Moiham negotiating with Leto I to send Jessica to him).

And we only need 1 beneficial diplomacy effect.

I lean against the Force Enemy ability, but I don't care enough to oppose it if others like it.

At least five people have suggested that. One person has suggested it is a bad idea. The "ayes" have it

<grumbles quietly>

but I don't see the need for specific units or missions

We had at least 3 votes for a Harkonnen Traitor unit, and one against. The ayes have it
The idea of having a Traitor who turns off the shield is just too awesome to leave out.

 

[davidlallen]

I feel strongly that the Force Friendship should be replaced with this ability.

Negotiating to send some other advisor seems reasonable. The only change is in the name (what do you suggest?), and removing the -1 manipulation penalty.

I lean against the Force Enemy ability, but I don't care enough to oppose it if others like it.

This is specifically aimed at copying the "Faux Pas" event, only under player control. Think of the Ixian ambassador at a Harkonnen event, and the RM seated behind him says "Sneeze!" at a critical moment. If nobody uses it or many people object, I can take it out. Is there a different name besides "Force Enemy" which suits better? "Cause Incident"? That sounds sneaky enough.

We had at least 3 votes for a Harkonnen Traitor unit, and one against. The ayes have it

And I will certainly merge in the sdk/python changes which anybody makes to add it. There are several contributed ideas in the mod which I initially disagreed with.

The idea of having a Traitor who turns off the shield is just too awesome to leave out.

Try a "me against the spies" game, where you play say Harkonnen (not Atreides which gets extra defense) vs Ordos, Tleilaxu and Margot. I can guarantee this existing capability will be used against you. Then let's see how awesome you think it is.

 

[Ahriman]

Negotiating to send some other advisor seems reasonable. The only change is in the name (what do you suggest?), and removing the -1 manipulation penalty.

Name suggestions include some mix of:
"Sisterhood Adviser", "Political marriage", "Sisterhood Embassy", "Provide Truthsayer". Anything along those lines.

If nobody uses it or many people object, I can take it out.

I don't object strongly, though again I would interpret it as general Machiavellian manipulation rather than using Voice. Again, Voice is muscle control, the Bene Gesserit are masters of regular political negotiation, which is what we are aiming for here. I don't think we need to put semi-magical additions on to something that is just being good at regular human politics.
I would suggest "Cause Incident" or "Political meddling" or something like that.

My objections are that I think it will be too weak, and that the AI won't use it intelligently, and that the effects of it are too subtle for the player to clearly observe.

I will make another call though for a Bene Gesserit Missionaria Protectiva building (I don't think you've ever commented on this) at Faith tech that provides some extra espionage points, and maybe gives +1 happy for non-state religions.
All the espionage abilities in the world aren't very useful if you don't have any EPs to spend on them.

And I will certainly merge in the sdk/python changes which anybody makes to add it.

It seems unlikely that others could code this.

Try a "me against the spies" game, where you play say Harkonnen (not Atreides which gets extra defense) vs Ordos, Tleilaxu and Margot. I can guarantee this existing capability will be used against you. Then let's see how awesome you think it is.

I haven't tried much with your latest spy AI changes. However, I will say that I have *never* had the AI use espionage against me intelligently. Ever.
If the AI were to destroy all my walls the turn before I was attacked, I'd be very happy. But I don't expect to see this happening regularly.
I suspect with your AI changes, the AI might come in regularly with spies and destroy my buildings, even defensive ones, but I doubt it will correctly do so just before invading.

This is half the point of the "traitor" unit that uses bombardment instead of building destruction; it doesn't rely on the AI being good at timing of espionage. All it relies on is AI stack of doom behavior.
The other half is that it is very flavorful.

I had one more idea for spies that I thought might be very useful; an "infiltration" mission in an enemy city that did nothing except give a few EPs (+10?).
So, if you have a bunch of spy units, there is always something useful for them to be doing, even if you lack the EPs for any other missions.

 

[Ahriman]

Playing a little, the AI is using espionage missions, but seems to constantly use the cheapest ones (eg stealing treasury) rather than waiting for the more expensive ones.

I suggest we cull the list of available missions.

Limit poison water to Facedancer only, and make it more powerful.
Limit sabotage production to Saboteur only, and make it cheaper.
Remove steal treasury.
Remove foment unhappiness.
Remove destroy improvement

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Since BG likes to be advisors to the other factions, is it possible to foment friendship/enmity between other factions (e.g. you play BG and foment permanent friendship between, horror of horrors, Atreides and Harkonnen)?

 

[Ahriman]

Forcing enemies is exactly the mechanic talked about above.

Why would you ever want to force friendships between other factions??
Divide and rule.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Again, I like to warp roles...if there were UHVs for the BG, it shouldn't be to rule everybody, but to maintain the status quo so that they can finish their breeding projects. E.g. friendship between Atreides and Harkonnen.

 

[Ahriman]

I do not think that we should be making game abilities that have no value outside of some unusual hypothetical victory condition.

I think that would be unnecessary clutter.

Again, if you want to play a game where your goal is not actually civ victory, but to keep every civ alive or something like that, go for it. Whatever you find fun. But I don't think that should be a formal part of the mod.

 

[davidlallen]

Name suggestions include some mix of:
"Sisterhood Adviser", "Political marriage", "Sisterhood Embassy", "Provide Truthsayer".

Among the various choices, "Political Marriage" sounds best. I will make the change. Also I will rename "Force Enemy" to "Cause Incident".

I haven't tried much with your latest spy AI changes. However, I will say that I have *never* had the AI use espionage against me intelligently. Ever.

I can tell you that I came across the code while looking for the all-terrain problem, and jdog feels it works well enough to mention it in the BBAI 0.82 release notes. If it actually never happens we can revisit it. I assume you can do this on your own, with your own spy unit, so you agree the capability is there.

I had one more idea for spies that I thought might be very useful; an "infiltration" mission in an enemy city that did nothing except give a few EPs (+10?).

That is an interesting suggestion. By executing a mission, you lose the +5% per turn benefit to your success chance, and it takes some number of turns for the spy to return from your capital to the target city to do anything else. I am not sure that a small EP bonus is worth these costs; what do you think?

Since BG likes to be advisors to the other factions, is it possible to foment friendship/enmity between other factions

This is not hard to do now that I have mastered adding missions. I will put it onto the list of possible projects; it is just the opposite of the existing Force Enemy mission. It fits into the RM "manipulation" theme.

 

[Ahriman]

I am not sure that a small EP bonus is worth these costs; what do you think?

If you have 6-10 spies, you cannot possibly generate enough EPs from buildings in order to actually be able to spend them on missions. It can take 20 turns or more to generate enough EPs to perform a decent mission, particularly if your EP spending is diverted against multiple opponents. EPs are the binding constraint usually, not spy time.
Hence, most of the time your spies will just be sitting around unable to do anything.

And so the opportunity cost of having your spy returned to your HQ is virtually zero, because the spy wouldn't have been able to afford to do anything during that time anyway.

The bonus from spy turns spent in place caps out after 5 turns.

You still might not have enough EPs to perform a useful mission after that. Spies end up spending most of their life in downtime, waiting for enough EPs to perform missions. EPs are the binding constraint to spy activity. If that downtown can instead be used to generate more EPs, then spies become more useful. If 10 Eps is too low, maybe 15.

An alternative implementation would be to let any spy stationed in an enemy city passively generate say +2 EPs per turn against that faction. That'd be useful too.

I can say that as a human player, I would absolutely use a mission that cost nothing and gave me a few EPs. It might even make me have an army of 10 spies or more, constantly using the missions in order to drum up more EPs.

The main point of the mission is so that there is always something valuable that spies can be doing, rather than just sitting around waiting for EPs to accumulate.

I will put it onto the list of possible projects; it is just the opposite of the existing Force Enemy mission. It fits into the RM "manipulation" theme.

If you do this, please make sure that the AI will never use it (it has no value to the AI), and that it is clear to the human player what the effect is (and that this effect provides no obvious benefit to the human player).
I would not want players new to the mod to think that the ability was useful to them (why else would we have included it?), and select that ability by accident.

Obviously my preference would be not to include it. I think we will have a much better product if we cut the spy missions down to the bare minimum, but make sure that those missions are powerful and cost appropriately and that the AI can use them.
An efficient design is a superior design.

 

[davidlallen]

If you have 6-10 spies, you cannot possibly generate enough EPs from buildings in order to actually be able to spend them on missions.

Another interpretation is that you should not have that many spies. Moving them from your capital to a target, burning one mission, and moving them back again seems like un-necessary micromanagement. They should do important things, not just run around on a conveyor belt. Once I have implemented the next couple of missions, such as "Sabotage" for the saboteur, and "Something you probably won't like" for the Face Dancer, we can revisit the tradeoff the AI makes between picking cheap missions and waiting for more effective ones. It may be that removing the cheap missions is the right answer, but I think it requires a little study.

It is unlikely everybody will agree, but it may be worthwhile to think of some effect for a Face Dancer which is flavorful, powerful, and not objectionable. I was thinking of "stunning" a unit for a few turns while its leadership is in disarray due to an impersonator, or possibly granting control over the unit for *one turn* instead of permanently. Can you think of any ability, besides just poisoning, which would be fun?

 

[Ahriman]

Another interpretation is that you should not have that many spies

Why not? The AI does. Remember that Tleilaxu game I watched where they built 13 facedancers.

If we don't want many spies, we should put a national limit on them. But is 5 spies really too many? I would prefer instead to make spies actually valuable, and then increase their hammer cost as appropriate.

or possibly granting control over the unit for *one turn* instead of permanently

Gaining control for one turn just results in it suiciding against an adjacent stack. Or it should do anyway (otherwise its just AI weakness). Could a facedancer really get a regiment of soldiers to turn around and attack their own house? It feels a bit too much like mind control.

I don't particularly mind if there are abilities like this that kill a single unit; units are more disposable in this mod than they are in say FFH.
But I'd be surprised if you could get the AI to intelligently use espionage abilities that target a single unit.

Can you think of any ability, besides just poisoning, which would be fun?

I had suggested a great person assassination ability should be Facedancer only.

My suggestions were a cheap city-disease that just affects one city and causes unhealth (like improved version of poison water supply), and then a very expensive Plague disease that kills population and spreads between cities (and costs a lot of EPs).

 

[davidlallen]

Why not? The AI does. Remember that Tleilaxu game I watched where they built 13 facedancers.

This seems like an odd chain of reasoning. "The AI builds a lot of these units, so let's give the player some micromanagement to do in order to keep them from sitting around doing nothing". We agree that the EP costs of missions needs to be studied; let me get the other missions implemented then we can do it.

But I'd be surprised if you could get the AI to intelligently use espionage abilities that target a single unit.

I agree. However, there is such a mission in vanilla, and AI to use it. Let us first see if it is fun for the player; second if the AI uses it effectively; and third if the AI doesn't use it effectively, we can revisit the AI for that. I am gaining a *little* more confidence in modifying the internals of the AI after my success on all-terrain spies.

I had suggested a great person assassination ability should be Facedancer only.

Yes, and since it is part of the existing super spies mod, it has been in the game since the beginning. I have made it Face Dancer only. Please try it and see what you think.

My suggestions were a cheap city-disease that just affects one city and causes unhealth (like improved version of poison water supply), and then a very expensive Plague disease that kills population and spreads between cities (and costs a lot of EPs).

Most Dune readers will expect something to do with the Face Dancer which relates to impersonation, which happened in the books, rather than bioplagues, which did not happen in the books. Is there any impersonation related effect you could tolerate?

 

[Ahriman]

This seems like an odd chain of reasoning. "The AI builds a lot of these units, so let's give the player some micromanagement to do in order to keep them from sitting around doing nothing". We agree that the EP costs of missions needs to be studied; let me get the other missions implemented then we can do it.

I don't see it as requiring micromanagement. One of my suggestions was to have a passive EP gain. I don't care whether its a mission or not, I just want to be able to actually have spies *do* something other than just sitting around.

Spies are 60 hammer units IIRC; its odd to just assume that a player shouldn't build more than ~3 of them. If that's what you want, then hardcap them with a national limit, so that the AI can't build too many either.

However, there is such a mission in vanilla, and AI to use it

Do you mean the bribe unit mission?

Yes, and since it is part of the existing super spies mod, it has been in the game since the beginning. I have made it Face Dancer only. Please try it and see what you think.

I've never really seen the AI use it, and as the human player I'd probably rather invade the city and take advantage of the settled great person rather than try to capture it. And I wouldn't know that the great person was there to target. Ironically, Tlielaxu are the only faction that an assassination mission will be incredibly effective against anyway, since they rely on settled great priests.

Is there any impersonation related effect you could tolerate?

I can't really think of any that make sense, at the level of scale that we're talking about.
Perhaps Facedancers could have a "impersonator" promotion when created that increases mission success chance or spy escape chance or made it so that the nationality of the spy was never revealed, or some mix of these. Those all feel like obvious natural affects from being able to change your appearance.

I'd love to have something that feels like impersonation, as I agree that comes closer to their original canon purpose. But none of the suggestions I've seen really feel that way. Taking control of an enemy unit feels like mind control, not impersonation. Opening gates doesn't feel like impersonation either. Its hard to get impersonation effects because the mod operates at a strategic level not an individual person one.
If you can find one that feels right I'll support it.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

What about a chance for the facedancer, if he or she's discovered, to have a high chance of being detected as a rival faction's spy and cause negative diplo between your target and that faction?