making spies different

[Slvynn]

Ah, i remebered hunter-seeker..... perhaps it can be good addition to Harkonnen spy mechanics? (since traitor not actually spy unit)

 

[davidlallen]

I agree that at 5%, the ability is pathetic. If the city gets 20 culture per turn (which is a cultural powerhouse), you get 1 culture per mission?

I don't think +20/turn is a powerhouse. Consider it is possible in vanilla to win a cultural victory with 50,000 culture in a city after 500 turns. I have done this (in HOTK, not vanilla) and +300/turn is possible, with specialists, build culture, and cultural rate buildings. We need to make sure it does not unbalance at the high end.

I was thinking of a minimum value. For example, maybe with Diplomat I, you are guaranteed 5 culture per mission, with Diplomat II at least 20 culture per mission. The main goal is whether your city starts out after revolt with just its own plot, or a 3x3 grid, or a full BFC, or larger. The full BFC size requires 15 culture at epic speed, 10 at normal. The next ring requires 150 at epic or 100 at normal. But it also depends on the other nearby cities, and I don't quite understand that effect yet.

Also; I know sometimes that if you recapture a city of yours, it does not go into revolt. Is this based on culture, or on who founded the city? In other words, can you add enough of your own culture to a city such that it won't revolt when you capture it.

Some of this may be controlled by *tile* culture, which is stored and calculated independently of *city* culture. Unfortunately I have not found any good descriptions of this, and as far as I can tell there is no way to view *city* culture for any civ other than the owner. You cannot even see this in WB. There are python functions to get and set it, maybe I will try to do something with that first.

 

[Ahriman]

I don't think +20/turn is a powerhouse

Well, it depends on how many cultural buildings and wonders you have in the mod. I agree that +20 isn't a powerhouse in vanilla, but it is in many other mods, and its quite a lot in Dunewars.

Some of this may be controlled by *tile* culture, which is stored and calculated independently of *city* culture.

Interesting. Is tile culture what is changed by Influence drive war? Can we make the culture espionage mission effect tile culture as well?

 

[davidlallen]

I have had some success with the +1 diplomatic bonus mission. The Reverend Mother can now execute this mission, and the AI will pick it. I called it "Force Friend". It kind of sounds like Jedi "Force" abilities, but I could not work "Voice" into the title.

I also made an interesting archeological find. There are two very powerful mission flags hidden inside the XML, which are implemented in the game but not used by any existing missions. One directly converts an enemy city to your civ, and the other throws an entire civ into anarchy for a given number of turns. The cost and difficulty can be set through the XML; presumably you would like to make them very expensive and also unlikely to succeed.

The "convert city" mission cost is not sensitive to any other factors, such as the city population size or whether you have much of your own culture there; I may try to add these.

I have added both of these missions as RM specific missions. We can play with the costs and success rates, but this will definitely make the RM powerful.

Next I will try to add a "Force Enemy" mission which gives a -1 diplo from the target civ to some third civ.

We had discussed before about two more possible diplomatic spy missions: Force Peace, and Force War. These would be identical to the existing diplomacy options, but with a variable success rate, and costing espionage points. It would be a good representation of the sneaky, manipulative Bene Gesserit if you could get civ A to declare war on civ B to keep A off your back. If I can figure out how the second picklist works for "Force Enemy", then Force Peace and War should be easy.

I am still not convinced that playing with *tile* culture is any fun. Although I see messages from IDW coming all the time, I have not seen any instance where IDW has any actual effect. It seems like a nice concept; but what actual difference does it make in any DW game?

 

[Slvynn]

I've seen IDW/ tile cuture working and i think its great. It changes alot when big battles take place. Imo it should stay - it is nice feature and fit to setting.
also i think that you should add such mission to RM - increasing tile culture - (with pre-adjusting costs_ - some windtraps can be very important , or resources
In our sucession game i've seen couple of situations where such mission would be ver yusefull (assuming we vwere playing BG) - example - our very important city Wind Pass lost windtrap to IX culture - and harm is great, because it even is not replaceable.
Adjusting such nuisances with espionage - seems to be allright for BG faction.

 

[Ahriman]

Although I see messages from IDW coming all the time, I have not seen any instance where IDW has any actual effect. It seems like a nice concept; but what actual difference does it make in any DW game?

It has an affect only in areas where you are competing for tile influence (ie multiple civs have influence on the same tile). Then battles or pillage can often flip tiles in your favor, even when you're unable to actually take an enemy city.

I'm not that attached to IDW-type espionage missions though if we can get other more interesting missions working instead.

 

[davidlallen]

Then battles or pillage can often flip tiles in your favor, even when you're unable to actually take an enemy city.

I don't understand what difference that makes. If the tile is in a BFC of your city and you don't own it, I suppose it allows you to work a tile. Otherwise who cares who owns a tile in the middle of nowhere? If you can take the city, you get all the tiles, and if you can't take the city, you can still pillage the enemy BFC down to nothing while your SOD is nearby.

 

[The_J]

I also made an interesting archeological find. There are two very powerful mission flags hidden inside the XML, which are implemented in the game but not used by any existing missions. One directly converts an enemy city to your civ, and the other throws an entire civ into anarchy for a given number of turns. The cost and difficulty can be set through the XML; presumably you would like to make them very expensive and also unlikely to succeed.

Uh, interesting to hear.
Did you also investigate, if the tag iBuyUnitCostFactor does anything?

But you have to look, if the throwing into anarchy works perfect. Because it has been reportet, that tsentom1's wonder (erm...forgot the name), which throws all civs into anarchy, leads to crashes in multiplayer.

 

[davidlallen]

Did you also investigate, if the tag iBuyUnitCostFactor does anything?

This is used by the superspies "bribe worker" mission. I did not test it, but I assume it works.

But you have to look, if the throwing into anarchy works perfect. Because it has been reportet, that tsentom1's wonder (erm...forgot the name), which throws all civs into anarchy, leads to crashes in multiplayer.

Interesting. Is that wonder done with python, or custom sdk? As far as I can tell, the vanilla sdk handles this flag in the espionage missions. As above, I assume it works, but thanks for the warning.

 

[The_J]

This is used by the superspies "bribe worker" mission. I did not test it, but I assume it works.

Ah, thanks .
Know i have to check superspies out, which i didn't do, because of the SDK changes.

Interesting. Is that wonder done with python, or custom sdk? As far as I can tell, the vanilla sdk handles this flag in the espionage missions. As above, I assume it works, but thanks for the warning.

Tsentom1's wonders are done in python, not in the SDK.
Might be, that the "unnormal" cause of anarchy leads to some errors, which will not appear, if it's caused by a "known" SDK function, but in fact, i have no idea .
But could also be, that this is the reason, why it's not used in normal BtS.

 

[Ahriman]

If the tile is in a BFC of your city and you don't own it, I suppose it allows you to work a tile

This is the point. It lets you work tiles, and get extra resources, and takes them away from the enemy. Its never designed to have any effect out in the middle of nowhere. Like I said, it only matters in areas where culture is overlapping.

In Dune this doesn't matter so much, because cities are (optimally) well-spaced. In many other mods and scenarios, it can matter a great deal.

 

[Slvynn]

I kinda disagree - it matter - example is our Wind Pass in sucession game
I had also few cases when such thing was important.
Such option would be cool to raise certain tile culture to amount of owning it - disconecting by that resource from enemy - Workers felt into RM control

I can see such situation if enemy have border strategic resource (lets say like nitrates or crystals ) and particular units annoy you , you can raise its tile culture to disocnnect resource.

Atm such use is not so powerfull, but there are lot of changes ahead, and may be we'll raise importance of resources - so such mission will be handy.

 

[Ahriman]

I'll also mention; the cultural changes I made in the culture infos will significantly expand the cultural boundaries, and so you would potentially be able to use IDW-type espionage missions to advance your culture a long way into enemy territory, which would hurt them pretty badly.

 

[Slvynn]

Only thing we need to check if AI understand this and new culture system, and uses IDW stuff.

 

[Ahriman]

Only thing we need to check if AI understand this and new culture system

?
The cultural changes I made were just changing the boundaries of how much culture was required to be accumulated to extend city borders. There is no AI component.

and uses IDW stuff

Standard IDW is already in the mod. There is no AI component; it automatically triggers when you win a battle or pillage a tile.

The trick would be to make the AI use an espionage mission that had an IDW-style effect.

Standard improvement sabotage won't quite work, because that prioritizes bonus resource tiles, not regular tiles with shared cultural influence.

 

[davidlallen]

Such option would be cool to raise certain tile culture to amount of owning it - disconecting by that resource from enemy - Workers felt into RM control

I would just station one junior unit there, to get the same effect.

 

[Slvynn]

@ Ahriman
i am unsure if AI will use new system of culture combat
some stuff sure need some tweaks (i think minor) for AI - to do same as you described
If culture will be so powerfull and AI wont use this mechanic at full scale (espionage missions) that would be less good for AI and easier to player.

@David
Sure with thopter pillaging it would do, but if you not in war? lets say pre-war?
Also on big maps its not always will be posible to maintain junior unit on tile and AI tent to improve vital resources very quick back if there is no threat around, that is for sure.

 

[Ahriman]

@ Ahriman
i am unsure if AI will use new system of culture combat
some stuff sure need some tweaks (i think minor) for AI - to do same as you described

Influence driven war is *already in the mod*. The effect is entirely passive; it happens when you pillage or win a fight. How could the AI *not* use it?

Let's please distinguish the possibility of a particular espionage mission on a Bene Gesserit UU from how culture works in the mod in general. There are no AI issues with culture outside the particular espionage mission.

 

[davidlallen]

How could the AI *not* use it?

I think Slvynn's point is that the AI may not use it on purpose, for example to deny resources to the enemy. This is probably true, but I am not sure how to prove it. One benefit of this type of passive effect is that the AI will use it by accident.

 

[Ahriman]

Is there any way to make the Force Friendship display a diplomacy modifier of "We have Revered Mother agents working to our advantage" or something similar, or do all events have to have the "past events have proved your good nature" message?