Making the Doviello more unique

[Nor'easter]

@MiKa523:

If you want to go with the wolf theme, how about making Baron Duin Halfmorn a Doviello hero? I know that would give them a 3rd hero, but it would certainly make them more unique.

 

[nihonjeff]

Why do people say "exception that proves the rule"? I never understood that. It's such a huge logical fallacy. Exceptions at best weaken rules. Ugh, I just really hate that expression.

The expression basically means that the presence of an exception to a rule necessarily implies the existence of a rule. The fact that a big deal is made out of Dentaro (a strangely Japanese name, which would roughly [and fittingly] translate to "Electric Son") being an ingenious inventor therefore "proves" that the rest of the Doviello do not share that trait. It's apparently a legal principle dating back to Cicero. /hijack

My ideas are either make it easy for them to enslave people or allow them a building the spawns wolves which can then join warrior line units which would add some vision and strength.

Dig these thoughts. I also like the previously mentioned idea of having wolf kennels permit regular production of wolves (though I wouldn't push the mechanic to allowing bears, tigers, etc.). It would make their world spell kind of meh, but them's the sacrifices we must make.

 

[rief_s]

Maybe make doviello can gain a few beaker and more money when capturing city. So they doesn't need to enhance their city.
Or they can make a city they conquered to become barbarian city and gain beaker and money when doing it.
And I like Ksi idea to add wolf to unit too.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

yeah, the idea about adding wolfs to units "great commander style" to gain +1 strength and +1 vision is really nice

 

[Blackmantle]

Another idea that sprang to my mind today for Kael + Team if the Doviello really should the blandness of them for the sake of helping beginners:


Give them a trait called "hunter-gatherer" (or something simmilar):


it whould do two things:


first make them always able to draft units (not just beastman, real draft. So better units appear if they get better tech ) in their cities size 3 + independently of any civics and right from the start representing the mobileness and agressiveness of their pop. (no resettling as pop though if its to be kept simple.)
(On a different note: the limit for drafting at 6 pop for drafting seems way to high to me even for military state. You should consider lowering it to 5 or even as low as 4. That might make that civic alot more viable for both players and AI. Naturally you should fix the support issue as well if that has not allready been done.)

(that might make it necessary to give them additional free unit-support as well so they don't outright drown in upkeep...)

secondly (the more important part imo) give each of their cities an additional starting yield of 2/2/2 (to represent their ableness as hunters and their ability to survive with meager support) in form of a tile yield bonus on city-tiles or a starting-building in each city or implemented in another way. (Which whould lead to a tile city-tile-yield of 4/3/3 + specials to commerce and hammers so a small growth is virtually guaranteed even in Tundra. Nothing to extreme. Just enough to utilize their drafting in an appropriate manner...)

Perhaps add an additional 2/2/2 bonus to their palace if that plays out as to weak (but i doubt it...).

That way you whould have a simple mechanics that whould allow a uniqe advantage (stronger early swarm and fast recruitment of vast stacks) which is still easy to grasp and doesn't make them use tundra better than anyone else while still providing an incentive to push into better terrain and not disproportionally benefiting them in grasslands and other neat places.

Also an Icehouse (Smokehouse UB) for Doviello + Illians as suggested somewere here might be fun + appropriate... (or be just that 2/2/2 starting-building for Doviello...?)


If i guess rightly, all those changes should be very easy to code if and grasp and shouldn't give anything unusual in the way of concepts compared to a vanilla game (save their worldspell of course...).

Perhaps its to some use (even though i personaly whould still like a complete makeover far more of course...) even though if parts of this suggestion have surely been allready mentioned somewere here. (I hope not just the exact same one in which case i apologize .)

 

[Ksi]

Glad you like the ideas. The problem with dating it back to Cicero is in Latin, the way that prove is used by him is similar to how we would use "test." Thus something could be "proved" to establish its quality which is why I believe the fallacy exists. However, I do see what you're saying, and in the ancient sense and a legal one its valid. I learned something new today. =)

In a strict logical sense though, no matter how the Doviello or anyone reacts in accordance to Dentaro it cannot ever show that the Doveillo have a certain trait (I'm assuming if you know this kind of stuff you certainly know David Hume). I think when brought into the world of induction (like many things in philosophy) it starts to crumble.

The expression basically means that the presence of an exception to a rule necessarily implies the existence of a rule. The fact that a big deal is made out of Dentaro (a strangely Japanese name, which would roughly [and fittingly] translate to "Electric Son") being an ingenious inventor therefore "proves" that the rest of the Doviello do not share that trait. It's apparently a legal principle dating back to Cicero. /hijack



Dig these thoughts. I also like the previously mentioned idea of having wolf kennels permit regular production of wolves (though I wouldn't push the mechanic to allowing bears, tigers, etc.). It would make their world spell kind of meh, but them's the sacrifices we must make.

 

[EverNoob]

Has anybody else tried the 0.34 Doviello? I find upgrading workers/slaves to beastmen a nice ability. Captures workers and slaves feed into the Doviello war machine, I imagine the slavery civic and the esus slave ring should synergize well with them.

 

[marioflag]

What if the Warlords mechanic introduced in the vanilla expansion is made a Doviello unique feature?
That would actually help making them a more aggressive civ than others

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

hey that's a good suggestion, it would fit them well and incourage them to go to war a lot

 

[zbelg]

Upgrading workers is a great feature early on, at a certain point though I don't really have much use for even more beastmen and the cost can hit too hard with troop upkeep. All the same, it's still really nice being able to upgrade in the field rather than having to run off back to a city.

Wolf packs are helping make Wild Hunt a little better but they still die pretty easily and it can be a chore to try to empower them.

 

[morilac]

One idea for making the Doviello more distinct is to give them a way to generate settlers and/or workers very fast, at the expense of population. This would give them an incentive to have small cities, while keeping a nomadic, expansionistic feel. I also like that it seems in keeping with one of the unspoken themes of the Doviello, which is that they are a relatively beginner-friendly team which is less reliant on planning ahead.

What I had in mind is that any Doviello unit in a city would have a spell availible to create a Settler at the cost of 2 pop, or a Worker at the cost of 1 pop. It would probably be limited to Once Per City Per Turn, and require a tech or building to keep it from being a big early game advantage.

Alternatively, when they construct a Settler or a Worker, it would take 1 Hammer, but cost them population. This could be done by giving them unique units with lower cost.

This would also work very well with the Doviello's ability to upgrade workers, since it means they could start popping out soldiers incredibly rapidly at the cost of gold and population.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

nice ideas morilac

 

[Rod]

hi,

what happened to the original idea of taking workers and work boats away from Doviellos and let them have identical returns from each tile ?

I just scanned the entire topic and didnt find any update on these.

I just loved the idea to turn the Doviello into a nomadic "wolflike" civilization.

What about following idea :

1) Doviello have no settlers, workers or workboats.
2) Any unit can found a city
4) Doviello cities dont grow.
4.5) Doviello cities have only 1-ring city radius.
5) City population cost normal food. (they are no demons)
6) Every unit can add population. (like in colonization, but units dont remember their status)
7) Every city can be disbanded into a number of basic units (acc. to current tech status) equal to current city size.
8) Doviello get +1 food, +1hammer,+1commerce from each land tile + original tile
(e.g. Plains gives +1 food,+1 hammer(basic) +1 food, +1 hammer +1commerce)
Doviello get no extra bonis from each sea tile except basic boni
(e.g. coast gives +1 food, +2 commerce (basic))
9) Doviello will not have any buildings.

10) AI will be programmed to constantly pack up and move the settlements towards the next neighbours. They will settle at the borders , they will raid and plunder . If the neighbours get eventually crushed then they move towards the next one.

 

[Skitters]

hi,

what happened to the original idea of taking workers and work boats away from Doviellos and let them have identical returns from each tile ?

I just scanned the entire topic and didnt find any update on these.
.

I'm not sure, but I suspect the idea came a little too late in the design process for the design team to implement - certainly for 0.34 - and quite possibly for the final version.

It also seemed that Kael and Xienwolf had diverging ideas from the base idea, so I suspect it simply didn't have enough flesh on itanyhow.

That said, it hasn't been beyond the design team to surpise us, but overall I'd guess that any major change to the Doviello will have to come in the form of a modmod

 

[zbelg]

this is a little spontaneous and some of these ideas may have been covered but since this is currently bumped I'm going to give my two cents as a frequent Charadon player

I'm not a fan of eliminating the cities entirely or having mobile unit producers. All scenarios I have played that have tried this, even the professional ones like Genghis Khan, were just boring, cities are a central feature of Civilization, also if one was really so inclined to retire and settle down I think that should be an option, even if it may be a bad one. The most consistent problem of my Doviello games is that my cities are actually too good- my armies will often be on warpath far away from Urslo and I'll have a lot of hammers I have nothing to do with, I usually have to make pointless units and delete them immediately afterward. To solve this, I like the idea of being able to "move" cities. I'm ignorant to coding so I don't know how well this could be pulled off, but say, settlers are less expensive and when created, the city would be destroyed. That way, you can stay on the move, when you rebuild your city, you'd start from scratch. This may seem harsh but being able to quickly pack up and establish a base camp wherever you want would be a very powerful feature if used well. Also, it would encourage warmongering to grab more cities, and it would please the people can't tough out some snow terrain.

If workers are removed that's all good and well, but mobility can be a real problem for the Doviello and workers building quick roads is really helpful, so I think a bonus to speed should be given to doviello units to make up for that, maybe having no penalty from terrain movement like the Keshiks. these are supposed to be some tough dudes so I guess that would fit flavorwise pretty well too.

I could be very wrong about this but I think most people just don't understand how the Doviello work- seizing an early advantage and killing off everyone you meet, eventually being forced to raze cities just to keep your piss poor economy and troop upkeep afloat. I actually really enjoy the fast paced feel of this and from what I can tell the other three Doviello fans that exist like this too, it's pretty tense in the midgame when one event can knock you completely off your groove, like the elohim worldspell. I think this should be emphasized and war should really be encouraged- I've always liked the idea of a warmonger civ where your people are actually happy or there's some sort of bonus if you're kicking ass, sort of like the Norse in Age of Mythology. if the idea of settlers dropping cities was implemented, an economic bonus, like decreased money from trade, more money from razing and pillaging would complement it well.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I tend to agree. I don't like having them loose cities either. I could be convinced to let them abandon cities in order to get more settlers though.


I really think that the main game should implement a spell like I added (although it should be refined somewhat first), which lets Doviello melee units challenge each other to a fight in which one (or both) could die, but survives gain xp and might occasionally get upgraded for free. I also think that it would be Appropriate for Sons of Asena to automatically turn into Battlemasters if they win a really tough battle.

I tend to think that Winterborn should give double movement in Tundra and Snow.


I too would like Barbarian civs to have negative war weariness, so that eternal war makes then happier and more procuctive instead of the other way around like it usually does.


I dislike most of the civ specific city art added in FF and FfH 0.34. I think the Orks' are the worst, especially on terrains like tundra.

 

[xienwolf]

Civ specific leader art eh? Fun stuff that. And goes HORRIBLE with the terrain, I totally agree.


As for the actual conversation that is going on....


Breaking up your cities could almost work with the Doviello since they have so few buildings, but other issues come up eventually, if you uproot all of the cities. It would have to be tried out to see how nicely it plays though. But uprooting a whole city and keeping all the data to re-settle would be pretty tricky.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I could have sworn I corrected that before posting...

...although, having different art for when a leader leads a different civ could be cool. This would mostly be Easter Eggs for Unrestricted Leaders, but I could see Decius taking on different appearances as a Bannor, Malakim, or Calabim leader. It probably isn't worth it though.

 

[Psycho_Ivan]

You could modify the Kuriotate system of Cities/Settlements by making some primary cities, and then having the movable cities that are meant to be used in order to prey upon foes.

The system would likely work a bit better in raw terms of gameplay, though it could be a tad overpowered.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I think movable cities should be the feature of a future modmod nomadic civilization

aside from that, abandoning cities in the hands of the barbarian civilization ( charadon only I guess ) and turning the population into a settler would be nice, as would many of the ideas posted in here lately. btw, you should give Orbi 0.14 a try, it added shapeshifting to the shamans and using animals to buff units. both are very nice additions.