Making the Doviello more unique

[Rod]

Hello,

there is a misunderstanding. I did not say uproot a city and resettle the same city.

I said :

Disband city with city size X -> get X standard melee units (acc. to current tech) (e.g. Axemen after Copperwork) -> use any unit to found new city -> use any unit to add population to this city.

Cities dont grow, but people have to be fed. Only way to make a city grow is by joining more units.

City don't have buildings.

You can not abandon the last city.

If you disband the capital then another city becomes capital automatically (the current biggest one).

I also didnt say to have mobile camps instead of cities.

I said have normal cities that can work tiles, but have no buildings and no improvements, hence you get standard extra returns from each tile (like having an invisible improvement on each tile that gives you 1food, 1 hammer, 1 commerce)

In the result the AI must understand that the only purpose of the Doviello is to roam around like a pack of wolfes always searching for new prey. Hence they will search for the next civilized land and then they will plunder these lands. They will research only military techs, they will rush out only units and then they will raze the foreign improvements , they will conquer and raze the foreign cities and if the last resistance is crushed and the last citizen of the prey country is enslaved then they will move further .... until somebody can finally stop them ...

 

[Rod]

Several issues and answers :

How to provide ressources to Doviello? - Easy you MUST settle on them.

(basically I imagine the Doviello not live in a state but in a tribal society. Hence not all the tribes have horses, but only one tribe who has settled next to horses)

How to prevent Doviello to research non-military tech ? - Easy , we use an old trick from Civ III. There will be a hidden tech called "Civilized". This tech is starting for all civilized states (that means everybody except Doviello in our example). This tech is requirement for all techs that the Doviello should have no access to.

(Please note that this design enables us to "unlock" the Doviello with the help of an event or something like that. That means that the Doviello could become "civilized" at some point if we want to have such a mechanic)

 

[xienwolf]

The City->Unit->City idea is a pretty smooth one. Possibly couple it with reduced city maintenance (either distance or number of), since if you want to get a couple of resources you'll need quite a few cities spread around.


Main issues I can think of would be roads to connect your cities and share the resources, and a good reason to WANT to move yourself around. But those somewhat answer each other. If they cannot connect cities with roads, then you have to move your city over to the resource that is required for what unit you are trying to build. So to upgrade to archmages, you have to run a unit over to some reagents and pop down a city for a little while.


Still though, having just any old unit add a population point is pretty big incentive to sit in one city and make it gargantuan by popping a warrior per turn. First warrior will be easily done in a mere 8 turns with the tile bonus proposed, so they'll be the fastest growing civ out there. The only way to limit that really would be a cap on how large a unit can make a city based on the Tier of the unit maybe? Unit Tier * 4 = Limit for growth? Then a warrior can only make up to a size 4 city, but an axeman can get you to size 8, and a champion to size 12 with no unit capable of moving you past size 16. Then all of your cities stay small, but you are still able to crank units, so why not just settle a lot of cities?

So in light of that rambling thought train, cutting number of cities AND distance maintenance would be a bad thing. Has to be either one or the other, and balanced out just right. I'd probably say cut the distance maintenance and keep the number of cities cost, possibly even make it bigger.

 

[Rod]

Regarding ressources :

Yes you already understood pretty well that Doviello cities will not be connected except by rivers. Hence you must settle on horses to crank out Horsemen, you must settle on Incense to get a priest and on Copper to get the weapons. So each "Tribe" (cities in other societies) is different among the Doviello Alliance.

 

[Imuratep]

Playing without roads is not recommandable for an aggressive civilization especially on the long run. You can live without the Resources, but not without faster movement. Especially for Mahala it would be a great loss.
Otherwise I like your ideas a lot. If you can think of a way to connect your cities i'd be really happy to see your ideas implemented.

 

[Rod]

You think that you need roads because you need to move troops from the far edges of your territory to the enemy.

Think again.

In my suggestion there is no far edge. You settle NEXT to your neighbour. You produce your troops where you need them. You simply dont require roads.You just pack and move your entire peoples ....

 

[Rod]

Still though, having just any old unit add a population point is pretty big incentive to sit in one city and make it gargantuan by popping a warrior per turn. First warrior will be easily done in a mere 8 turns with the tile bonus proposed, so they'll be the fastest growing civ out there. The only way to limit that really would be a cap on how large a unit can make a city based on the Tier of the unit maybe? Unit Tier * 4 = Limit for growth? Then a warrior can only make up to a size 4 city, but an axeman can get you to size 8, and a champion to size 12 with no unit capable of moving you past size 16. Then all of your cities stay small, but you are still able to crank units, so why not just settle a lot of cities?

Dont forget that you need to feed your people and that you can only work 1 ring and that you wont have farms, neither Sanitation or Agriculture (these are civilized techs)

So even if you settle on only grassland and you get your +1/+1/+1 then you still have a maximum of 26 food = 13 population and then only 9 hammers, which is not the best choice (lets say 14 if you also have a food resoure) and only 11 commerce which is not good for size 13. Moreover you wont have specialist as you cant get the buildings. (except of course citizen which will add 4-5 hammers in this example)

Hence there wont be super cities. Most propably the Doviello can manage to have a wandering state of 5 cities with average size 6.

Also dont forget that at the beginning the normal cities grow and build warriors, when you need to build warriors in order to grow. The 1 turn for 1 warrior story is not that easy realizable in the beginning. Apart from this the early warriors are pretty valuable as they wander around and pop goodie huts for money and techs and gain XP. But you must feed them to your cities. Hence the Doviello will have a pretty rough start. Also the Doviello will not benefit from the Special Improvement as they have no access to the most techs that make them better ...

So in general we really NERF the Doviello with these mechanics, however we also provide them powerful game options, like free upgrade of your units (you add any old unit , but disband into new units without experience) and as you dont have to improve the land the Doviello might become a real nemesis in the early game which provides a challenge to play against or to play with.

Also you should not underestimate the strategic challenge.
Will I add the units or will I use it. Will I stay here or wander further. Will I fight my current neighbour or will I search for a weaker prey ... in general it will be a unique experience and this is what FFH is for all about

 

[xienwolf]

Forgot about the 1 ring proposition. That tips the scales nicely and balances out the population levels without need for a semi-clunky mechanic like Tier limits

You could get some specialists by Civic choices, but that is much later in the game.

Also the Doviello will not benefit from the Special Improvement as they have no access to the most techs that make them better ...

Are you saying that the +1/1/1 comes at a certain Tech (or in pieces from multiple techs)? Because the main concern I had was that settling your first city on a plains/hill means 2 from turn 1, which pops out a warrior in about 8 turns. That assumes you do not use both of your starting warriors as population to make it a size 3 city gaining at least 4 hammers to double that speed, but quite likely gaining far more (could have a few forest/hill spots for 4 hammers each, so potential perfect start will have 10 hammers on turn 1). You use this to crank out either a second city before turn 20, or to inflate the population of the first city to max sustainable pretty rapidly, THEN start seeding cities all over the place.

 

[Rod]

Good point. Might be balanced (when AI plays Doviello) be the later underdevelopment thanks to bad research capabilities. A human player is winning anyway with every civ

But if even the AI is able to exploit this then we must connect the boni with either civics or techs.

10 hammers in turn one .. indeed. The AI will of course not use both warriors but only one, then we talk about at least 4 , more likely 6 hammers from turn 1 ... so the next warriors comes in turn 4 that is too fast.

Most propbably we nerf it by connecting the +hammer to Copperwork.

Needs testing I would say , any chance someone has the time to mod this

Regarding Special Improvement, I was referring to Dragon Bones , Remnants and the like, which saw more as a balance issues when the Doviello would be able to use them to full extent

 

[Imuratep]

I think the ideas of rusty217 are quite good, but because they were in the "what improvements do YOU want for this mod" thread and there ideas are mostly just collected, not discussed I think this might be a better place for it:

For the Doviello,

How about a new civ trait for them, that gives them double their current amount of free units and +50% unit build speed.

And a unique improvement called wolf pack, requires the sacrifice of a wolf unit and can only be built on tundra, provides no yeild bonus, but each one in the city radius gives the city +1 and +1 xp to units built in the city. Each wolf pack improvement also has a 5% chance per turn of spawning a new wolf unit.

And how about some unique promotions for their units, Berserk 1+2 each giving the unit +1 attack and -1 defence, available after the unit has combat 1. Alpha Wolf, only available to recon units, requires subdue animal, gives +1 and +1 sight. Fearless, no requirements, makes the unit immune to fear and gives +10% against units with fear.

And a unique building for them, Hunting Grounds, +1 +3.

And maybe a unique unit, a replacement for scouts that have +1strength, start with subdue animal, but has only one movement, and loses its innate bonus against animals.

I like your ideas, except the Civilization trait you want to give them. Free units that's no problem, but +50% production for military units is by far too strong. My idea for their civilization trait would be that animals caught by the Doviello could gain the Berserk I promotion you propose.

IMHO your second idea should be extended. The wolf pack could be upgraded to form better wolves (The last level could spawn Werewolves) or to give more XP or more food and/or production, but to make it more unique it should upgrade by something special like sacrificing experienced wolves, not by working the tile like the Pirate Coves. Or you upgrade the wolf packs by some of course bloody rituals (-1 population in all your cities after each ritual), which IMHO would be the most fitting possibility. Also the improvement propably should be balanced by requiring 2 wolves which you need to build a wolfpack as +1 XP is quite strong.

I also like your Berserk promotion a lot because it would be a possibility to make Charadon better, since all his units start with Combat I and therefore he had immediate access to the Berserk promotion. With Apprenticeship (or in combination with your Wolfpack idea) you could build dozens of Beastmen which start with 4 strength and still get +20% city attack. To defend these you build some beastman with shock and you have a very strong army.

So Charadon would overwhelm the opponents with hordes of units, which walk undisturbed through their barbarian friends (which can be much earlier than with Mahala if you have at least 2 wolfpacks), whilst Mahala would attack them with some well trained units which are backed up by some weaker units (the workers you used to build her the streets to the enemy).

 

[it-ogo]

We have already hordes of barb-friendly units from Clan and Warrens. Doviello assumed to be not so many but strong.

And they like wolves.

What about if each Dov unit comes along with one wolf and each unit can absorb wolf pack with Empower V and get "Pack owner" promo wich is +1 first strike, +1 visibility range, +1 strength and +1 movement?

 

[rusty217]

The unit production bonus probabaly would be too strong, but I still think the other ideas might work, the xp bonus from the wolf packs came from the idea that they can study the wolves tactics and use them to their own advantage as Charadon did during the age of ice. And making it exclusive to tundra makes them like the tundra terrain more, without repeating a mechanic.

With the xp bonuses and the promotions I proposed they would be fewer in number than the clan but they would be stronger barbarians.

 

[Mailbox]

I like the idea of the Doviello being fewer and more powerful, it goes well with the existing lore that the Doviello are huge and brutal humans. Wasn't Saverous 8-9 feet tall even before being made a demon thrull? And the berserker entry mentions the Doviello as able to swing human bodies around, which would take massive physical strength.

 

[Imuratep]

Ok so if the Doviello are considered to be the stronger barbarians, IMHO they should get some unique promotions (like the proposed Berserk). What these promotions should be is open for discussion

 

[DV.]

Hi, I have played FFH2 for a while, and have enjoyed it. Thanks a lot team.

I have read these forums before butnever posted here, but I did have an idea for the Doviello, which I think would certainly make them unique.

As they are a primitive people in a tribal state, I would propose that they don't have a money based economy, but one more similar to what is called primitive communism.

How would this work? The Doviello would have no maintance, but also no income. In fact no money whatsoever. It would have the disadvantage that they could do all the things that can be done with money, but the advantage in that the presures of a centralised economy wouldn't hinder there expansion. Tied in with the idea about them only having a one ring city radius, it would give the feel of a 'confederation of (small)tribes, rather than a centralised empire.

Unit upgrades would be free, but have a requirement of a certain xp.

What do people think?

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

that could be a great idea! I hope one of the modders here will drop in and tell us that this is doable

 

[it-ogo]

As they are a primitive people in a tribal state, I would propose that they don't have a money based economy, but one more similar to what is called primitive communism.

Trait "Communistic". Well... they already speak Russian...

This is interesting still makes many problems which can be solved only by strong reworking of the game mechanism.
- I am afraid that without maintenance at all their expansion need additional limiting factors.
- Many events positive results need money (or give out money).
- No mercenaries... well, this maybe OK.
- Gambling houses are very big loss... Something instead is needed.
- Pacifism becomes Doviello's best civic.
- ... many others will be found I think.

Also I have esthetic doubts about 1-ring fat cross idea: it would look like strongly populated area because there will be too many cities too close from each other. And need much micromanagement.

 

[Mailbox]

You could force the Doviello to have 4 spaces between their cities perhaps, it shouldn't be too hard to do. (And it needs to be done for the Kuriotate AI anyways).

 

[blacknight]

Also I have esthetic doubts about 1-ring fat cross idea: it would look like strongly populated area because there will be too many cities too close from each other. And need much micromanagement.

If you want sparsely populated, I think the obvious way to do this is the flat tile yield that was proposed earlier (where all tiles, regardless of improvements, produce a fixed amount, e.g. 3f2h2c). I loved this idea and would be happy to see it.

I also think it would be cool if all their melee units did a very small amount of collateral.