Mali UHV in 1.184: First Condition is Broken

[AnotherPacifist]

Maybe one could also try a more pro-active stance vis-a-vis France. Send a pillage party?

I think trading for code of laws, then whipping a courthouse and assigning a spy, while another city whips a spy, then switching back to castes might work. True, you lose some turns generating wealth initially, but since your main competitor is France, if you're lucky and get a great spy and steal their gold, it doesn't have to be >3000g afterwards, i.e. you don't have to generate 2 great merchants by 1300, maybe just 1.

 

[TDK]

Good idea! There are plenty of things to play around with before declaring it "broke" I think.

 

[Mazzini]

3.2k is approximately 1 standard deviation away for the France's gold amount distribution at 1300 AD. I take back that 3.5k is a safe amount to have. The mean is somewhere 3.8k I believe (last 2 attempts France had 4.2k). So if you passed with 3.2 you can feel really lucky. I routinely amass 3.7k without using castes, with 1 merchant only. Early castes is a killer for the 3rd goal, one needs to have 6 cities by 1300 AD to amass 16000 at 1700 AD. With castes you can't even get a Market in your capital by 1300!

Mali really frustrates me, even more than Maya, because you can win Maya on Monarch with minimal luck (Emperor requires a city in Aztecs land though). But Mali looks like Lois (or Rhye's programming) knows how much gold are you making per turn and adjusts his merchants to beat you. Seriously, I decline to believe that France AI goes for 4K+ gold just because random numbers tell her to chose merchants over the scientists. Failed Wonders aside, why would any intelligent French ruler hire 4-5 merchants instead of scientist (not to mention artists?). Who needs Paris without an Academy even?

I have 3 questions therefore

1) Whoever made 4.5k on Monarch -- please come forward and share some tips, 2 Merchants and Castes do not make 4.5k. You will make 3.8/3.9 maximum, since you never make more than 1100 per mission at 1300 AD, even if you reach Japan! It's either 900 or 1100 gold without regard of distance, size or continents.

2) If Rhye reads this please tell us -- have you told France AI to amass gold on purpose?

3) If #2 is "NO" -- any explanation about why gold and not research preferred by France Great Person generator? Upgrade costs explanation would not work -- AI gets very big discounts even on Nobel in normal BTS. Maybe for AI buying techs costs less than researching them and France chooses that role?

I don't see how I could have got much more than 3.2k without seriously hurting my longterm economy... The only way to have time to generate a 2nd great merchant is to use caste the whole time and have that long road to the northwest built by your workers, which eats up a ton of worker turns that they need to connect resources for trade and build Timbuktu's cottages, not to mention repeatedly repair them because there is no way you can consistently kill the stacks of War Elephants that invade before they pillage you with the 0 to 1 war elephants you'll have available.

Even starting from 3.2k in 1300 the 16k goal was ridiculously close. I realized after a few tries that caste was only good for getting the 1st merchant early enough that you could send him to Paris without building that insnaely time-consuming northwestern road... so once I popped the GM i'd switched to slavery and whipped a market and a galley, and I stayed in slavery the rest of the way. I actually was only able to get the final goal by keeping the first three cities and micro-ing the everliving crap out of them to maximize every coin. Whenever I tried to expand, the new city wouldn't generate enough commerce quickly enough to makeup for the opportunity cost in wealth of building its settler. I traded Divine Right + some gold to the French and English for Machinery and Feudalism, then to the vikings for guilds, and whipped grocers. My next GM in the mid 16th century bulbed banking and I whipped banks everywhere. Trading resources for gold was another key to the win. I was further handicapped because my game would crash to desktop every time I met the Arabs (since solved by reinstalling RFC) so I wasn't able to do any trading with them. A lot of luck with the barbs was necessary. Mali workers are so slow that you often don't have time to build roads to resources like the cow that was grabbed by my eastern city (Zaria) so having that pillaged would mean losing whatever I was trading it for and it took an eternity for my workers to get over there and rebuild it, besides costing me a lot of wealth via production. It was definitely frustrating being completely unable to build a single thing in any city the whole time because of the need for wealth. Whatever spare units I had that I didn't need for happy faces (and wasn't my one formation war elephant that must have killed 100 barbs, I hired out as mercs. This war elephant, which flipped to me at spawn, was the only thing that made this close to possible. I think Mali should start with at least one jumbo seeing as how they spawn in waves along with multiple camels. A camel that flipped to me at spawn also proved useful and could beat stock war elephants with formation. I was totally helpless against the impi though. They somehow beat my skirmishers in the field most of the time, so I was reduced to waiting for them to suicide against my cities and sending workers to clean up the many pillaged tiles. Sometimes they would walk past my eastern city and head straight to timbuktu and just pillage cottages to their little hearts' content, and my elephant or camel could not beat them consistently in the field. When this happened a reload was necessary.

Oh, and I had to cross my fingers that I never got a second plague, for I'd have had no chance if I did. Toward the end Euros started demanding thousands of gold at once, but they never declared when I refused, and I just sneaked in there with 16006 gold.

I really have no idea what France's deal with the gold is, it seems like they only do it to frustrate the human player even while hurting themselves... Someone suggested using a GS, but I don't see how that could ever be less costly than generating a gm since you can use caste or markets which you need anyway...

 

[blizzrd]

Even starting from 3.2k in 1300 the 16k goal was ridiculously close. I actually was only able to get the final goal by keeping the first three cities and micro-ing the everliving crap out of them to maximize every coin.

Also map trading is far more lucrative than most expect it could be. But most importantly, don't forget gold old begging! I begged for at least 500g along the way to my Mali UHV IIRC.

Also, yes Grocers were vital for the 3rd UHV.

 

[Tigranes]

Mazzini, I was really feeling your pain as I read your Mali victory.
I gues after Rhye reads it he will give Mali 1000 gold at start just to make sure we don't lose our cool here

Seriously, Mali frustration is only comparable to RFCE Byzantines losing a city every turn, until you just give up and stay with your core cities. Unfortunately, with Mali I feel like if I play a little more smarter it will work and not like it's impossible let's just move on... Never liked gold that much before, scouting entire Africa just to steel a worker from someone, even declaring on Arabia just to grab that extra worker. One time I stole 6 workers. I start thinking abouth taking over Athens for Parthenon -- but that could really harm my stability. Waiting for TDK to show 4.5K gold -- and then I hope to come up with some safeproof strategy...

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Rhye has refused to change Mali's goal despite a lot of pleas in the past. One has to wonder how many times, when playing Mali (or Ethiopia for that matter), one has said silently to this unfeeling God of ours, "Eloi, Eloi, lamma sabacthani?"

 

[TDK]

Good game Mazzini.

I think that western road makes good sense historywise and in the actual game. I like it that a trader civ like Mali benefits from controlling an efficient trade network and trade missions.

Have you ever read the Account of Mansa Musa entering Mecca with the Cairo pilgrimage caravan? It's a really good read and a testament to the wealth of Mali at the time.

I'm impressed you made it with just 3 cities. I think a fourth city near the seafood will quickly pay off, it can take some of the low food gem/gold tiles and let northern cities work plains cottages instead, so you use every inch of land you have.

If you post a screenshot I would be able to provide more input into the discussion.

 

[moopoo]

I got 2.3k first attempt, 3.1k second attempt, on Viceroy, and i couldn't get it. it's simply too hard to do.

 

[Tigranes]

No NW road, 1 Merchant only, never Castes, never building wealth before 1300 AD, making 148 gold per turn, 6 cities (3 shown plus Aksum, Hesperides, Alexandria, but Tripolli was razed) and 4.2K gold. (I checked later Louis had 4K gold, about the average amount France has at 1300 AD).

This is what I was trying to prove -- it is possible to win the first goal without frustration, with minimal lack and without castes. I made 16K by 1575 and this is after 2 Plagues, after Timbuktu was conquered by Barbs (luckily not razed), Daloa was conquered by sneak attacking French and Alexandria flipped to Arabs (all those cities have been later recovered).

Minimal luck requires one-two camel archers flipped at start. The rest is just careful city placement, micromanagement every turn and careful wars.

Yes, the war is the key with Mali. Every conquered city brings 100 gold in average (one can make 145 with Aksum only).

1. Revolt to slavery/HR
2. Found Wagadugu as capital and Timbuktu 1 tile W from starting location (in desert, why waste flood plane?). Timbuktu is a first Great Merchant generator. Do not found Accra until you know sailing -- you would lose the free harbor.
3. Research nothing, Wagadugu and Timbuktu grow to size 6 to whip your first buildings -- Markets. Timbuktu gets 2 Merchants, Capital tries to grow as big as possible, trade Elephant with Europe for Wheat (+2 health) and 4 gold.
4. Camel runs to meet Arabs, as soon as possible -- BUY both fishing and sailing, found Accra, your whip city. Any Elephant you need must come from here. If you work lake and Crab you get +6 food surplus.
5. You have 4 free wins against barbs. Be very very careful to squeeze as much exp for skirmishers and flipped troops. One Skirm promotes Shock and fortifies on Elephant near your capital.
6. Build warriors right after Markets to get prepared for plague, build cottages after everything else is done for the same reason.
7. Now wars:
7a. Aksum is a great city and you want to be Christian and not Muslim (+2hummers from AP and you get INSTANT contact with all the Christian nations). So take it with flipped Camels at all costs, the sooner the better, otherwise don't hesitate to invest in a Knight. Any money you have spent on the right Mercenary will pay off BEFORE your first goal deadline. I just used the exp. from free wins against barbs, Aksum was defended by an archer and catapult (Native Impi killed a spearman for me) , took it with Camel got +145 gold. Also got a precious worker. Started to build Christian Missionaries here.
7b. Hired Axeman, whipped Elephant in Accra, one Skirm and Camel -- for Tripoli. Barbs already soften defenses. Had plans to get that Marble for Leaning Tower and fast Merchants, but barbs pressed too hard and I had to surrender the city to save troops for the next 2 cities I was planning to take for cash.
7c. Alexandria was next -- fooled Byzantines that I am going for Hesperides, they moved some troops, sacrificed one of the two priceless flipped Camels and got that city right in front of the Arabs. Great Lighthouse means cash! Great Library eventually gave me Great Scientist, used it for Philosophy and Pacifism.
7d. With more sacrifices took over Hesperides -- just for cash, otherwise it's a useless city.
8. Traded DR with Spanish last minute for Calendar, Code of Law, Meditation AND open borders and delivered my Merchant on turn 67 -- enough time to see English and trade map for the last minute cash.

As you can see on the picture I am building a Settler for the second seashore city (remember about Great Lighthouse?) and Libraries for the Civil Service teching (I teched it in 8 turns). Your large capital needs Bureaucracy.

After 1300 AD I had really hard time with barbs arriving right when the plague strikes, hired mercenaries just to save my capital. Never lost to Impies. Elephants are for Camels, Skirms for Impies.

 

[TDK]

Good game Tigranes

2. Found Wagadugu as capital and Timbuktu 1 tile W from starting location (in desert, why waste flood plane?). Timbuktu is a first Great Merchant generator. Do not found Accra until you know sailing -- you would lose the free harbor.

Founding Timbuktu 1W is key to any good Mali game IMO. The net gain in your core area is 5 food(desert 0 to +2, floodplain +2 to +3, Oasis +2).

Good point on the harbour, hadn't thought of that. Is there some system to what buildings various civs start of with?

 

[Tigranes]

Thanks, pal, took me 3 days of trials and errors. One time I did 4.4K gold, look how much France had:

As to your question, it all depends on the age you found your city. Civilopedia has info for some buildings: "available free for medieval and later starts", etc. Harbor is free for Medieval starts, just like Mint, but only if you know sailing.

 

[Wessel V1]

! Is it possible to use your interior advisor for other civs? ! Never knew that, thanks! Is it possible without a (Great) Spy investigation?

 

[BurnEmDown]

I'm guessing he used World builder or something of that sort.

 

[Wessel V1]

Maybe he has, but in the upper-left corner, there is a scroll-table with Louis XIV, so I think I've just learned something very useful. Thank you Tigranes!

Oh, it seems that I've married a princess.

 

[Tigranes]

Did not understand the princess part , but it's not something new. No Spyes, just a Worldbuilder. Ctrl W then F2 then pick Louis. Helps when you lose your 1st UHV and wish to see by what margin. And I needed some statistics to find the mean for Frances gold at 1300 AD. 5.4k is an outlier, just like 3.2. The peak is somewhere at 4.0K +/- 0.5K. Sad but true. French people love pistoles too much . We need to ask AP if they still do

 

[Mazzini]

Wow... me meeting condition 1 with just 3.2k must have been a huge stroke of luck then... Still took me 10 tries.

 

[Zagoroth]

I notice quite a bit that when the AI is at war, its gold production becomes slower by usually a larger amount than it would for a human player. I do not know how it works on the highest difficulty, i rarely play Monarch and have not tried Emperor, but the AI usually overreacts to war. Also the French would most likely not have enough galleys that early on to effectively wage war on you. However this is largely speculative; I could try it out if someone wanted me to.

 

[blizzrd]

I notice quite a bit that when the AI is at war, its gold production becomes slower by usually a larger amount than it would for a human player.

This is true. It is because the AI hires mercenaries upon a declaration of war.

 

[Zagoroth]

Would having them hire mercenaries be an effective strategy, or would it simply not be worth it?

 

[ThurinEthir]

Hm, perhaps you could even make some money using that tactic, not only waste your enemies'.
I don't know how effective it would be, but what if you build a bunch of skirmishers/whatevers, put them out on the market, and then declare war on civs you know won't bother actually attacking you? I'm pretty sure they can still hire your mercs, and you'd definitely be able to get a few more GPT that way. (I don't know if that's what you meant in your last post. If it is, whoops.)
The only problems I can think of are that I don't know if skirmishers would be hired if the AI had the choice of hiring units like muskets. Also, I've read that it's more effective to build wealth rather than skirmishers and have them hired.


I don't know if the conquest method would work in Warlords, as there is no Ethiopia, and Egypt + Carthage are usually decimated by barbs. I'll try it though, I usually do get a few of those barbs on flip.