disorganizer
Deity
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2002
- Messages
- 4,233
I heard so much about our "Manifest Destiny" here, so i want to know what you think.
Manifest Destiny
- Thread starter disorganizer
- Start date
donsig
Low level intermediary
It's tough to vote this one. Manifest destiny was described as 'the continent we started on is ours and ours alone'. Everyone else has to get or be thrown out.
disorganizer
Deity
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2002
- Messages
- 4,233
we was my first thought too. but as thinking about it longer and longer, maybe it is not.
just wanted to see where the the citizens stand with their thoughts. and as this will directly influence our gameplay (the way we want it to end) i think it is really worth a poll.
btw: voting should always be tough ;-)
just wanted to see where the the citizens stand with their thoughts. and as this will directly influence our gameplay (the way we want it to end) i think it is really worth a poll.
btw: voting should always be tough ;-)
SKILORD
Insurgent
I don't know!
Cyc
Looking for the door...
I believe Donsig is correct, but i voted Culture
Charis
Realms Beyond
The term "Manifest Destiny" was a very popular phrase or concept in the USA around 1840. Basically, it was the rationale behind an extremely aggressive expansionist era in which Americans saw it their visible obvious ('manifest') destiny to spread the virtue of democracy and their culture clear across the nation, from coast to coast. Settlers from other cultures were expected to either see the glorious benefit of joining our civ, or they would be... displaced.
In essence, in this context as well as Civ 3 terms it means...
"This WHOLE continent is OURS and we're going to expand across it no matter what opposition we face."
That was the term and path I suggested as soon as I learned we chose the Persia background for Phoenatica, before we even knew if we were on a tiny island or pangaea. It doesn't make much sense to poll for the meaning of 'manifest destiny', as this is by definition dominating expansionism.
It *is* a good poll to ask... given what we know now about where we live, is there a new direction the people want to move toward.
Me? I stick with the vision of Manifest Destiny, but will help the military carry out the nation's choice, whatever it may be.
General Charis
In essence, in this context as well as Civ 3 terms it means...
"This WHOLE continent is OURS and we're going to expand across it no matter what opposition we face."
That was the term and path I suggested as soon as I learned we chose the Persia background for Phoenatica, before we even knew if we were on a tiny island or pangaea. It doesn't make much sense to poll for the meaning of 'manifest destiny', as this is by definition dominating expansionism.
It *is* a good poll to ask... given what we know now about where we live, is there a new direction the people want to move toward.
Me? I stick with the vision of Manifest Destiny, but will help the military carry out the nation's choice, whatever it may be.
General Charis
As we are Industrious and Scientific, our natural goal should be to build the Spaceship. But I don't like the Idea of playing towards a specific goal, it makes the game loose some of it's charm.
We should play well in every area, but still... I voted Spaceship as I see that as the one of the Victories that would fit our nation the best.
We should play well in every area, but still... I voted Spaceship as I see that as the one of the Victories that would fit our nation the best.
At this stage, we'll bind ourselves if we set our sights on any single victory objective. We shld learn more about our geography and neighbours, see how much land we can effectively hold, before making any specific choice. 
Personally, as Charis had said, I would secure the entire continent before becoming a benign (but militarily powerful) superpower; but in whichever case, we shld occupy as much land as we could hold.
Personally, as Charis had said, I would secure the entire continent before becoming a benign (but militarily powerful) superpower; but in whichever case, we shld occupy as much land as we could hold.
Charis
Realms Beyond
I hope (and don't think) that what's being proposed is a *decision* on victory goal, but a 'preferred target.'
If it were in fact cultural, we need to press full bore on wonders, rapid expansion, and banging out both temples and libraries in all cities.
If it were diplomatic, it becomes crucial to build allies and not tick off people.
If it's domination... we'll, you've read my thoughts
( > We shld learn more about our geography and neighbours,
> see how much land we can effectively hold, before making any
> specific choice
We know they're on *OUR* continent and that we can hold the whole continent if we put our minds to it, what else cha needta know?!)
If it's spaceship, we have time, and can have another route open with that as a fallback. It's a long term one with a ton of flexibility in the exact route you take to get there.
But because two or more of those options have *immediate*, ancient era impact, it's definitely good to discuss.
General Charis
EDIT -- regarding Eyrei's post two below, he's 100% correct on the more 'general' meaning of the words. And yes, I like the poll. Just pointing out that the intended use of the phrase when I brought it up here, was not some random phrase but one used in history to describe a nationwide expansionist agenda. Tnx for the clarification
If it were in fact cultural, we need to press full bore on wonders, rapid expansion, and banging out both temples and libraries in all cities.
If it were diplomatic, it becomes crucial to build allies and not tick off people.
If it's domination... we'll, you've read my thoughts
( > We shld learn more about our geography and neighbours,
> see how much land we can effectively hold, before making any
> specific choice
We know they're on *OUR* continent and that we can hold the whole continent if we put our minds to it, what else cha needta know?!)
If it's spaceship, we have time, and can have another route open with that as a fallback. It's a long term one with a ton of flexibility in the exact route you take to get there.
But because two or more of those options have *immediate*, ancient era impact, it's definitely good to discuss.
General Charis
EDIT -- regarding Eyrei's post two below, he's 100% correct on the more 'general' meaning of the words. And yes, I like the poll. Just pointing out that the intended use of the phrase when I brought it up here, was not some random phrase but one used in history to describe a nationwide expansionist agenda. Tnx for the clarification
Immortal
Deity
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2002
- Messages
- 5,950
Originally posted by Knight-Dragon
At this stage, we'll bind ourselves if we set our sights on any single victory objective. We shld learn more about our geography and neighbours, see how much land we can effectively hold, before making any specific choice.
I wholeheartedly agree with you
Though the term "Manifest Destiny" means exactly what many of you described to those who know US history, the actual meaning of the words, in the case of this poll, is "How will our destiny become real." Since our destiny is obviously to win, it is a question about how we will win. Sorry, just wanted to clear that up. The poll is entirely legitimate, in my opinion.
disorganizer
Deity
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2002
- Messages
- 4,233
and it is NOT meant to be a "we poll now and have it forever" poll... i will post this poll every time our destiny seems to be a kind of vague... like now, everybody seems to think the term means "kill everyone around us" as seen in the threads. but here we see from the poll that most ppl maybe at this moment dont feel like going this way.
i could have asked another question, but i thought this sounded better and would lead to more discussion.
of course if the game develops, this destiny will change. and if you take the term as it is, it just means "the way we want to go", not "kill everybody"
btw: not everybody knows american history so well (i do and WANTED to provoke some comments about it )
btw2: we should be carefull with real-life phrases like this because this is not a one-country show where everybody gets those phrases right... they are misleading. i could also put in some phrases of my country translated to english, and the us-citizens would definitely get them wrong
i could have asked another question, but i thought this sounded better and would lead to more discussion.
of course if the game develops, this destiny will change. and if you take the term as it is, it just means "the way we want to go", not "kill everybody"
btw: not everybody knows american history so well (i do and WANTED to provoke some comments about it
)btw2: we should be carefull with real-life phrases like this because this is not a one-country show where everybody gets those phrases right... they are misleading. i could also put in some phrases of my country translated to english, and the us-citizens would definitely get them wrong
Charis
Realms Beyond
Again, good discussion and yes, goals or directions may change, but destiny does NOT, cannot.
Let's not get confused - words do have definitions, and in this case, destiny and manifest destiny are well defined terms, not something subject to debate or change.
Dictionary definition of 'manifest destiny': (Amer.Heritage)
NOUN: 1. A policy of imperialistic expansion defended as necessary or benevolent. 2. often Manifest Destiny The 19th-century doctrine that the United States had the right and duty to expand throughout the North American continent.
If you break apart the two words you can come up with other thoughts, but this is precisely the definition in mind when I suggested it as a *potential* goal for Phoenatica.
Britannica Concise points out: "The phrase was coined in 1845 by the editor John L. O'Sullivan, who described the U.S. annexation of Texas and, by extension, the occupation of the rest of the continent as a divine right of the Amer. people."
"Destiny"
NOUN: 1. The inevitable or necessary fate to which a particular person or thing is destined; one's lot. 2. A predetermined course of events considered as something beyond human power or control. (Syn: fate, karma, lot, kismet)
As such, "destiny" does not and cannot (by definition) 'change'. It's predetermined and beyond our control. Mind you, whether there *IS* such as real thing as destiny or not is unclear and very much subject to debate. (I don't subscribe to it, at least not in popular forms)
What you're thinking, where are we *ultimately* headed, where is the path to our victory... perhaps "Consummation" which means 'an ultimate goal or end', or "aspiration" (the idea of great ambition to meet some ultimate goal)
Some folks don't think "Manifest Destiny" is our "Destiny", and would prefer a different aspiration I hope to hear from more of these folks with differing thoughts on our consummation.
General Charis
PS OMG I feel like Sirian with this post!!
There's an urge to say "Words matter!
"
Let's not get confused - words do have definitions, and in this case, destiny and manifest destiny are well defined terms, not something subject to debate or change.
Dictionary definition of 'manifest destiny': (Amer.Heritage)
NOUN: 1. A policy of imperialistic expansion defended as necessary or benevolent. 2. often Manifest Destiny The 19th-century doctrine that the United States had the right and duty to expand throughout the North American continent.
If you break apart the two words you can come up with other thoughts, but this is precisely the definition in mind when I suggested it as a *potential* goal for Phoenatica.
Britannica Concise points out: "The phrase was coined in 1845 by the editor John L. O'Sullivan, who described the U.S. annexation of Texas and, by extension, the occupation of the rest of the continent as a divine right of the Amer. people."
"Destiny"
NOUN: 1. The inevitable or necessary fate to which a particular person or thing is destined; one's lot. 2. A predetermined course of events considered as something beyond human power or control. (Syn: fate, karma, lot, kismet)
As such, "destiny" does not and cannot (by definition) 'change'. It's predetermined and beyond our control. Mind you, whether there *IS* such as real thing as destiny or not is unclear and very much subject to debate. (I don't subscribe to it, at least not in popular forms)
What you're thinking, where are we *ultimately* headed, where is the path to our victory... perhaps "Consummation" which means 'an ultimate goal or end', or "aspiration" (the idea of great ambition to meet some ultimate goal)
Some folks don't think "Manifest Destiny" is our "Destiny", and would prefer a different aspiration
I hope to hear from more of these folks with differing thoughts on our consummation.General Charis
PS OMG I feel like Sirian with this post!!
There's an urge to say "Words matter!
"disorganizer
Deity
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2002
- Messages
- 4,233
how can you know in advance what your destiny is? you will notice it... when its too late to change it. i just want to know what our citizens think our destiny is... as you see... some think different than you...
btw:
our destiny may not be the same as the american destiny. to my point, the american destiny HERE is definitely not to conquer the whole continent (at least i hope so!)
btw:
our destiny may not be the same as the american destiny. to my point, the american destiny HERE is definitely not to conquer the whole continent (at least i hope so!)
Charis
Realms Beyond
> how can you know in advance what your destiny is?
You can't
> you will notice it... when its too late to change it.
You can't change 'destiny'
> i just want to know what our citizens think our destiny is... as
> you see... some think different than you...
"think our destiny is..." Aye, that thought or perception or country's ambition, is quite subject to change, and our actions should reflect what this vision is.
I think I'll just be quiet now and let people share their vision of what our destiny might be... (or say that we have no 'destiny', that where we end up is where we choose to end up, and our 'fate' is in our own hands)
Charis
You can't
> you will notice it... when its too late to change it.
You can't change 'destiny'
> i just want to know what our citizens think our destiny is... as
> you see... some think different than you...
"think our destiny is..." Aye, that thought or perception or country's ambition, is quite subject to change, and our actions should reflect what this vision is.
I think I'll just be quiet now and let people share their vision of what our destiny might be... (or say that we have no 'destiny', that where we end up is where we choose to end up, and our 'fate' is in our own hands)
Charis
Shaitan
der Besucher
I'd like to vote for Histographic
Seriously, this is a roll playing experience and I personally don't want to taint it by planning how to win the game. The game is just a vehicle. It's the ride that I'm enjoying.
Seriously, this is a roll playing experience and I personally don't want to taint it by planning how to win the game. The game is just a vehicle. It's the ride that I'm enjoying.
SKILORD
Insurgent
i must say i agree
As do I. The only one of these victory conditions we have to keep in mind always, if we want a chance at it is diplomatic, and our current foreign policy conforms to this.
adamsj
Gaint Hobbit!
I would recommend do all of these so to dominate and when in future wining is a possible, I would then say which to win by!
Similar threads
