Mansa's Ju-Co, CIVIV 101

[xanadux]

I'm almost finished with round 6, and will post it later tonight.

For now, though, my analysis of priests + shrine vs. merchants + great merchant in Djenne.

I'll make this as friendly as possible for the shrine, to give us a best case scenario for building a shrine in this situation. The best case is if we assume the Parthenon is built, probably in Lisbon, and it takes 31 turns to generate a great prophet, and also we assume we have not only founded all 11 cities I plan, but have spread confucianism to them all. Now a priest is 1 gold and 1 hammer, and I am going to convert that hammer to 1 gold for comparison. Now you may say that a hammer is worth more than 1 gold, and I would agree with that in principle, but we need to consider in this case that each gold is going to be converted into 3 beakers in the capital (+200% research with oxford). And that's what we would get with wealth.

So, for 31 turns, 3 priests are worth 6 gpt, and 3 artists are worth 12 gpt. So while we are building the great prophet, we are losing 6 gpt, or 186 gold total. If we settle the Great Merchant, we will then get 6 gpt + 2 gpt (1 food = 1/2 merchant specialist). The shrine provides 11 gpt. So once the shrine is built, we make 3 gpt. It will take 62 turns to catch up. So in the absolute best case, it will take 93 turns for the shrine to start showing a profit. Now we didn't even include the cost of the missionaries.

A more reasonable situation is that we skip the Parthenon because Sury has had Aesthetics for a while, and we will probably miss it anyway, and so now it takes 45 turns to get the prophet, and 3 times that, 135 to break even. I imagine the game will be close to over by then.

After that, we need to look at the short term gain of the extra gold. 45 turns x 6 gpt x 3(conversion to beakers) is 810 extra beakers towards research over those 45 turns. This will be 2 or 3 turns of research. So depending on the tech path taken, we could have 2 or 3 extra turns of having levees, or 2 or 3 turns of biology, or 2 or 3 turns of an extra trade route.

Then it is time to judge which course is better. Since this game won't last long enough for a settled Great Merchant to be worth a trade mission, that should be the true comparison, and if we get 1000 gold from that, It will take the shrine about 90 turns to catch up. And we get all the benefit much quicker, and if it is all turned into beakers, about 7 or 8 turns of research. Since we have such a tech lead, and I plan on a conquest victory, starting to build rifles or calvary 7 or 8 turns earlier will probably mean winning the game several turns earlier, even if I get a slight edge 120 turns down the road with the shrine.

 

[knel]

I think the econonmy can handle it, but production is still somewhat low.
I believe that going for Universal Sufferage, and settling the rest of my own continent will ultimately get the overseas invasion finished quicker.

I will also need theatres to deal with war weariness.

Thanks for this thread it's very interesting.

I played my first game of BtS and was paralyzed several times by war weariness. How do you address it prior to police state and jails?

 

[xanadux]

There are several ways to deal with war weariness.

Keep your wars short, making goals that are manageable in a short period of time. You usually have to wait at least 10 turns to get peace, and usually can get peace after that if you have taken 2 cities. Sometimes just taking one city or defeating a lot of units is enough. Sometimes the AI leader won't talk to you for a long time, even if you are winning the war. I haven't played enough games to really have a feel for which leaders are easier or harder to get peace from.

War weariness doesn't disappear when you make peace. It is still there, but only affects your cities while actually at war. It slowly decreases over time.

Keeping wars shorter even if war weariness is high shortens the negative effects, and allows you to absorb them more easily without starving your cities.

There is no war weariness for battles within your cultural borders. Sometimes it is an option to go to war and let the enemy come to you, killing most of its units in your own territory. Also, being at war doesn't cause war weariness, fighting does, and losing a fight much more than winning one.

As for actually reducing the war weariness you have, there are several methods relatively early in the game. If you have built the pyramids, the police state civic cuts it in half.

Slavery is an option. Turn the unhappy population into production. Also, since the # of unhappy faces depends on city size, war weariness is effectively reduced in the city. It is possible to have more tiles worked after whipping away 3 or 4 pop than you had before whipping because of this.

Theatres, and to a lesser extent colosseums are an option fairly early in the game. Usually in time for your first protracted war (early wars should rarely be very long). Each 10% on the culture slider gives a happy face with a theatre, and for a colosseum, one happy for every 20%. The draw back is your economy takes a hit. This is particularly attractive if you are running a specialist economy based on scientists because your research isn't dependent so much on the science slider. This method does have the benefit of retaining your population and production.

An often overlooked method is to capture luxury resources. Gold, Gems, and Silver are particularly good because if your cities have forges, capturing one gives +2 happy.

In my round 6 war, I used several methods for war weariness ... I captured gold, researched constitution and switched to representation for +3 happy, and also used the whip a couple times. When whipping, tend to whip a large building that adds happiness for better effect. Markets, forges, colosseums are all good whipping options.

When planning a war, you should always consider war weariness. If you expect the war to be long, you need a plan for dealing with the war weariness, and may need to delay the war to build theatres, or find a way to make it shorter.

Also look out for who has the Statue of Zeus which doubles war weariness. If you must war with them, try to take that city first.

Another thing that can help make wars shorter is using spies. Especially if the cities have very high culture and walls (-50% defense bombardment for cats and trebs), this can save 3 or more turns per city of bombardment, and can also shorten the war and reduce WW because the target city has less time to whip defenders.

Late game, police state plus jails plus mt. rushmore completely eliminates WW.

 

[xanadux]

Round 6, turns 154-220.

A very long round, and I may not get it all posted tonight. For the most part I continued the economic expansion. Oh and a big war happened too.

At the end of round 5, the first Portuguese war had just finished, my battle plans foiled by my own clumsy spies that couldn't avoid being caught by a backwards people that didn't even know what a spy was yet. But the enemy capital and heart of production Lay in Malinese hands. Only minor reinforcements would be necessary for the second war. Most notably, a few siege units.

There's a little less detail on worker movements, and at times I don't mention each and every build for every city.



Turn 154 Finished Trebuchet in Djenne, started on Maceman.

Turn 156 Finish Education, start on Philosophy. Caravel runs into Ice in north. No way around continent, so turns back. Timbuktu switches to University.

Turn 157 Maceman finished in Gao, start on Trebuchet.

Turn 158 Philosophy completed, start on Nationalism. Djenne completes
Maceman and starts on Treb. Why Nationalism? I have an eye on Democracy for Universal Suffereage and a huge production boost for Timbuktu and KS. There is no fear of losing the Liberalism race, and I have no need for the Liberalism civics right now. So the quickest path to Democracy is to first research Nationalism and Constitution and then take Democracy for my free tech with Liberalism.

Turn 160 Djenne whips treb for 2 pop. Workers are chopping outlying forests around Timbuktu to help with university.

Turn 162 Gao completes Trebuchet and starts Trebuchet. KS completes Aqueduct and starts on University.

Turn 163 Pyramids are completed in a faraway land

Turn 164 Djenne completes Trebuchet and starts on Trebuchet.

Turn 165 Djenne whips trebuchet for 2 pop.

Turn 166 Djenne and Gao complete trebs and start on maces. War force now built. Sury comes by asking me to switch to Organized Religion. I agree. I hope to get him happy enough to trade me his map. I would be switching back to OR soon anyway because I was just about finished with military builds. This is one of the hidden strengths of the Spiritual trait. You can switch civics and religions for diplomatic purposes, and just switch back 5 turns later.

Turn 167 Finish Nationalism and start on Republic. Battle force in Lisbon is 6 maces, 3 trebs + 1 on the way, 2 axes, and my medic pike. 3 Trebs, 5 maces and the pike invade to the West to take new Portugueses capital. Northern force stationed in KS is 3 maces, 3 axes, and 2 trebs. The maces and trebs move toward evora. The axes stay for defence. Mace in Marble city snags Portuguese worker who thought it was safe to walk the neutral roads.

Turn 168 screenshot. I have my northern force selected. Mouse over my southern force (1W of gold) shows the list of units on the right side of screen. Cuimares is the clear first target because as soon as it falls, the gold will be in Lisbon's control, and I get +2 happy per city with my mints already built.

Spoiler :

Capital completes university and goes back to market. Northern force kills sword E of Evora and moves next to city.

Turn 170 Horse Archer in Evora attacks and loses. The defending mace now has 5 exp and at 4.4/8 hitpoints. I give him his 2 city raider promotions so he will be healed quicker. My spy in city W of Lisbon fails to drop defenses.
Well, that's why I brought trebs along. Jao mounts a counterattack of 4 swords, 2 axes a chariot and spear against Lisbon. I have 2 maces and 2 axes and a treb for defense. I think they will probably survive, but in case they don't I move settler in Gao south to resettle Lisbon if necessary. In the following shot, you can see the exact units Jao is attacking with, and my defending force. Good thing I didn't send them all out on attack, eh?

Spoiler :

Turn 171 Jao's counter attack fails miserably. I think he was pretty stupid to start the attack with the swords rather than the axemen. Lost a single axe to his spear. Continuing to siege our 2 target cities. Islam founded in a distant land.

Turn 172 Finish dropping defenses of Guimares. 1 treb attack left, and it attacks and wins (90% with CR2). 6 units in city, and I have 5 macemen. All 5 maces win.

Turn 173 A HA and sword are brought to Guimares defense. I attack with all 3 CR2 trebs, losing one with 98.7% odds. The city is captured and razed without further losses. It is a holy city, but I don't care. Up north, my trebs are done dropping defenses and attack. Then all 3 maces attack and win. One heavily damaged archer remains. War weariness had begun to take a toll, but with the destruction of Guimares, Lisbon's culture now controls the Gold, and the +2 happy with mints means all my cities are again happy.

Turn 174 Evora captured. Attack with treb unecessary, but did anyway to get exp. Portuguese culture has taken my roads to Lisbon and the gold and War Weariness again a problem. KS whips university for 3 pop. Gao whips maceman for 2 pop. Capital whips market for 1 pop. Lisbon switches to monument to whip next turn.

Turn 175 Djenne starts on market, Timbuktu on Taoist temple, Gao on Jewish temple, and KS on Confucian temple. Great General born in Gao heads to Djenne to join up with explorer I built for medic 3 unit.

Turn 176 Constitution finished, start on Liberalism. Switch civics to Caste system and representation. Representation will get rid of the remaining war weariness. Sury wants open borders. I decline. I don't want to increase chances of Buddhism spreading. The one thing that can take the win away from me is an Apostolic Palace vote. I prove the world is round.

Turn 177 Great scientist completed in Djenne. Heads to KS for academy. Temple completed in Gao, start on library to prepare for oxford.

Turn 178 Battle forces healed. Northern force moves to city N of Lisbon. Southern force moves to take Oppelo. culture is crowding Lisbon. Switch Lisbon to 3 artists to pop borders. I move on Opelo however the hell it is spelled, because at this point the happiness of the gold and room for Lisbon to grow is worth more than a quicker war. I know I have the forces to complete the war barring a long string of bad luck. Jao isn't that much of a threat, he's just in the way.

Turn 179 Temple completed in KS, start on monastery.

Turn 181 Liberalism finished, take Democracy for free tech. Start on Aesthetics. Switch civics to Emancipation. Lagos is taken and razed, losing a trebuchet.

Turn 182 Djenne finishes market and starts on University. Aesthetics finished, start on Drama.

Turn 183 Drama finished, start on Literature. Library completed in Gao, start on University.

Turn 184, Literature finished, start on Astronomy. Operto's defenses dropped, kill 6 of 7 defenders. Another Great General born. Will probably use
as instructor in Lisbon. Aesthetics/drama/literature don't help me a huge amount here, but it's only 3 turns of research, and I want the option to build theatres to help with war weariness, and to open up the Heroic Epic.


Turn 185 Temple completed in capital, start on monastery. Oporto captured and kept. Forces reassemble in Lisbon with medic 3 great general unit to prepare for last gasp of Portugal.

Turn 187 Norhtern force heads to chinook. Southern Force to Coimbra. Workers start a mass migration to Lisbon to chop mint, library, and university, build mines, workshops and watermills. A small force of 2 combat maces and
my old medic pike break off to explore the SW city.

Turn 191 Djenne finishes University, starts on Harbor. Lisbon finishes Mint, starts on Library. Finish Astronomy, start on Gunpowder. Begin laying siege to next 2 cities. Find 2 swords and axe guarding a settler near Chinook and take them out.

Turn 192 Switch to Slavery. Oporto whips courthouse for 4 pop. Lisbon completes Library and starts on University. Jao's first longbow shows up in Coimbra.

Turn 193 Oporto finishes courthouse and starts on lighthouse. Coimbra falls and is razed.

Turn 194 screenshot.

Spoiler :

2 healthy maces and 2 healthy trebs head over to help take Faro while rest of stack heals. Faro is lightly defended, and my healthy units meet up with the Southern patrol to take it down while the rest of my Southern army heals. Gao finishes University and starts on Harbor.

Turn 195 Timbuktu completes monastery, starts on observatory. Djenne completes Harbor starts on theatre. Leira completes granary, starts on harbor. Faro captured and razed.

Turn 196 Lisbon completes University and starts on Temple. Timbuktu switches to oxford. Southern battle force moves north. WW getting to KS, switch to Market.


Turn 197 Djenne finishes theatre, starts on Moai statues. Lisbon finishes temple, starts on courthouse.

Turn 199 KS whips market for 4 pop.

Turn 201 KS finishes monastery. Chemistry complete, start on steel. Apparently I missed mentioning when I completed Gunpowder. Well it took 10 turns to finish gunpowder and chemistry together.

Turn 202 Chinook is razed. Only Braga left. Jao sent a counter attack of 4 axes and 2 cats towards Lisbon. Fortunately I had 3 maces and my medic pike patrolling down there. Attacked and killed 2 cats and an axe. Moved
garrison mace from Lisbon onto hill east of river by coast. Now axes must approach on flat ground and be killed.

Turn 203 screenshot. Here you can see where I moved the Lisbon garrison on the hill, forcing the axes onto open ground if they wanted to press on. It was unlikely they would attack a shock mace on a hill across a river (suicide). Although I probably would have taken them out fairly easily on the hill, the chances of losing a unit would be much higher. Small things like this are important. By forcing the axes onto the low ground, I probably decreased my chances of losing a mace from somewhere around 60% to about 15%, or roughly I saved half a maceman.

Spoiler :

Lisbon finishes courthouse, starts on barracks.

Turn 204 Oporto completes Lighthouse, starts on Harbor.

Turn 206 Lisbon completes Barracks, starts on Heroic Epic. 6 units killed in Braga.

Turn 207 Courthouse completed in Gao, start on Theatre.

Turn 208 Razed Braga, declared peace. It's time to get back to empire development. Itching to get into US. Jao is down to 2 tiny cities, but won't capitulate. Djenne finishes Moai statues, starts on settler. Send existing settler over to whale city. Most likely area for Jao to try for. Switch civics to Universal Sufferage and Emancipation.

Turn 209 Military returns to my cities, leaving a few units for fog busters until new cities are settled. Great General goes to Lisbon. I am thinking of saving him until Military Science for an Academy.

Turn 210 Steel completed, start on Guilds. Whale sheep rice city founded (Walata). Djenne is building settlers and confucian missionaries for the new cities. Gao is building a couple workboats for the new cities then finishing its
theatre.

Turn 213 Guilds finished, start on banking. Mercantilism will be a useful civic to bring in extra gold in my new cities and to expand their culture. Next will be Economics (Toku just got banking 2 turns ago, but I am sure we
wil beat him to the Great Merchant). The trade mission will probably yield more beakers than what it takes to research Economics.

Turn 214 Niani founded on fish/rice site. Gao starts on drydock. KS starts on courthouse.

Turn 215 Finish Banking, start on Economics. Get Noble Knights quest. I think I'll do it just for fun. Switch civics to Free Religion, Mercantilism and Caste System. New cities will run artists for culture then merchants. Science cities obviously scientists. Production cities engineers. Free Religion to try and get some maps of the other continent. Go to talk to everyone. Trade corn to all of them for 9, 7, and 5 gpt. Gift Aesthetics to Bismarck. No one wants to give up their maps yet.

Turn 216 Djenne starts on Grocer. Lisbon finishes Heroic Epic and starts building knights. Would rather be building cannon, but hey, a quest is a quest. You can't find the grail if you don't look for it.

Turn 218 Awdaghost founded at corn/clam site. Oxford finished.

Turn 219 Finish Economics, Great Merchant will head to Sury land. I am kicking the espionage slider up to get enough EPs to see demographics for end of round.

Turn 220 Have my map courtesy of Bismarck. And can see all demographics.

End of round. Further comments and screenshots to follow soon.

 

[xanadux]

First, my comments on round 6.

The tech path was:

Finish Education
Philosophy
Nationalism
Constitution
Liberalism
Democracy (free)
Aesthetics
Drama
Literature
Gunpowder
Chemistry
Steel
Guilds
Banking
Economics
Start on Military Science.

The tech path is moving more towards production and war. The first half of the round, tech was devoted towards getting Universal Sufferage. Jao put up a little stronger fight than I thought he would, and the war took a while, so US had to be delayed because the happy faces from Representation were necessary for war weariness.

Steel was take for drydocks, and primarily to allow cannon. Pre-tanks (which cause collateral damage), you just about can't have enough cannon, and I want to be able to build them as soon as I am ready for the next military build up.

Next guilds for grocers. Health is more of a limit than happiness right now.

Banking I would eventually want for banks, as eventually I will be moving away from research and towards gold, and in the not too distant future. Gold will allow a massive military and upgrades. I developed 6 or 7 CR3 maces in the last war, and all of these will need to be promoted to extremely potent rifleman or infantry units. Economics would pay off within 20 turns or so as the Great Merchant's eventual trade mission would fuel a great deal of research. And it had to be now rather than later because Toku already had banking. It may seem that Toku is advanced, beating us to banking, but this is just a common case of the AI taking stupid long paths up the tech tree. When I show the tech pics, you will see that Toku and everyone else are hopelessly backwards.

In this war, and the last, I pretty much built just as much military as was necessary. I already held the only super good land of Jao's ... Lisbon. There was no hurry to finish the war early. If war weariness became too much of a problem, I could always take peace, build a few more units, and finish it a little later. There were really only 3 crucial objectives to the war. Capture the cities to the N, W, and S of Lisbon so it could grow into my primary production city. The war was little more than a hiccup in my economic development. Once it started, Djenne and Gao built 1 or 2 more units each then started on first a happiness build and then universities to get Oxford. If you know you don't need more military, you shouldn't build more military.

Building just a little more military may have been slightly better. 2 more trebs and 2 more maces would have made the war quicker. But in the end, they weren't necessary, and I judged the required force pretty much exactly right. This actually makes me think I made a mistake, because if you have just the force you needed for a successful campaign, and no more, you weren't so much good as lucky. I lost a few very high odd fights, but could have easily lost more and been in trouble. Erring on the side of a little too much military force is not an error at all.

An absolutely crucial part of the success of my war campaign was my defense. When my forces were on the doorstep of the new Portuguese capital, Jao counterattacked Lisbon with a rather large force. 7 or 8 units, mostly city raider promoted axes and swords. Since I had the foresight to keep 5 units behind in Lisbon, this wasn't a problem. Again later, Jao counter attacked Lisbon with 4 axes and 2 cats. Again, though my garrison in Lisbon was a single mace, I had a force of 3 maces and a medic pike patrolling the area. In BTS, if it is at all reasonable for a counter-attack to occur somewhere, it probably will. You need to have a military force available to deal with it.

On the builder front, we have 3 new cities founded that should be able to support their maintenance through merchants. The real reason for these cities is the resources they garner. Whales, sheep, dyes, and fish are all welcome additions to our resource pool.

Before I comment on a plan for the future, I think I should post some more screenshots from the current situation. Coming in the next post.

 

[xanadux]

Now for the promised screen shots.

The northern half of the other continent:

Spoiler :

And the southern half:

Spoiler :

The tech situation:

Spoiler :

And a view of our fine capital:

Spoiler :

We can see that even our most advanced rival Suly still lacks Liberalism, Gunpowder, Printing Press, and Compass.

Suly is going for culture victory. Too bad he's our first target.

I could attack Toku first, since that probably wouldn't offend the other AIs much. But there are several extremely compelling reasons to attack Suly first.

His capital has the Statue of Zeus and the Apostolic Palace. Destroying the Apolostolic palace means we have no fear of losing because of it. Also, getting rid of the Statue of Zeus reduces our war weariness in the long run. Suly is also the strongest and most advanced of our rivals, he seems to be fueling the tech pace on the other continent and if you have the military means, attacking the strongest target first is wise.

 

[ViterboKnight]

This game seems so ridicolously simple, as you describe it!!!
Excellent points! I'm a prince player, at the moment, and I can see a lot of points of interest in what you say.

In my opinion, the main hints are: let your first cities grow faster than you can (by building each city his worker EVEN BEFORE the city itself has been built); reuse workers when you don't need it near its city (when a city reaches its happiness cap); carefully plan which land improvement a city needs (don't improve 6 tiles, if a city can't go over 5). And, most important, WAIT until you build your third and fourth cities! This always seem to be an obsession, for me. I saw you to be almost the first civ, with only two cities.

Besides, the strategy for such an economic leader is interesting. A carpet of cottages near some cities (best if the capital is included, because Bureocracy), and the other cities providing the required money and production.

Anyway, you are right, the most difficult thing is to be able to adapt a strategy to the current game; surely your game would have been completely different if some little things in early game had gone another way (e.g., Joao exploring in your direction, or no clams near your current second city, or even a random event). This requires experience. I surely still need a lot of experience!

 

[xanadux]

A little more information and a few more screenshots.

Sury's capital holds the following wonders:

Mahabodhi, Great Library, Great Lighthouse, Colossus,
Oracle, Parthenon, Hagia Sophia, Chichen Itza
Spiral Minaret, Notre Dame, Temple of Artemis, Great Wall
Statue of Zeus, Mausolleum of Maussollos, and Apostolic Palace.

His top three cities have cultures of about 15k, 14k, and 8k.

Some pics.

Powergraph:

Spoiler :

Demographics:

Spoiler :

A view of the home continent:

Spoiler :

And what Freddy wants to go to war with Toku:

Spoiler :

 

[xanadux]

I plan on going for conquest victory. It seems the quickest to me. Sury surely drew the best land in the game. An incredible capital with loads of food and production. I don't think I've ever seen an AI city with 14 wonders in it before.
I think Sury should be the first target. He is far more advanced than the others, and could conceivably get grenadiers or rifles if I put off taking him down.

I am also concerned about buddhism being spread to one of my cities, and having a war called off by the AP. Take out the AP first, and no problem. I have a question about the AP. If I were to keep Suly's capital, would the AP remain buddhist? He has a few wonders that would be useful, notably the mausoleum and spiral minaret. The parthenon would likely be obsolete by the time I took it. But it all depends on the AP. If it stays buddhist if I take it, the capital must be razed.

The main questions for the round are:

1. What tech path to take. I know the techs I want, the question is which order builds a superior military the quickest. I'm approaching full military build up mode.

2. When to finish off Jao. He has built another city and now has 3. He has a lot of units wandering around neutral territory, and seems to be concentrating on military. It's only a matter of time until he attacks, and I think I would rather take him out before the overseas invasion. I want to be able to use every unit I have except for a garrison in each city. The AIs are far from astronomy (no one even has compass yet), so with Jao gone, defense is a non-issue.

I'm thinking as soon as the knight quest is over and I have built a few cannon to take down Jao.

Now the tech path. I think there are 3 key techs. Steam power for levees. We have 3 cities that will benefit greatly from levees ... Timbuktu, KS, and Lisbon. Rifling to open up better units. and Assembly Line for infantry.

In my opinion once we have these techs plus communism for state property and maybe biology, we can shut down science production and run gold and culture to deal with war weariness and buy and upgrade units.

I'm leaning towards shifting off Military Science and beelining Steam Power. At current tech rate, Steam Power is 12 turns away. Then fill in Military Science for a military academy, and then Rifling and Assembly Line for Infantry. I can build cannons until infantry are available, and as soon as infantry are available, turn down the science slider to promote all my CR3 maces to infantry. Somewhere in here, after having enough cannon to make it quick, I'll take down Jao, and should be able to launch the overseas invasion force once I have the gold to upgrade the maces. Probably should also get railroad before attacking to build a couple machine guns to protect the CR infantry, although with the units I am likely to face, Combat 2 infantry will defend fine.

My war plan overseas:

Immediately build 2 or 3 privateers to harass the AI and blockade the Khmer capital. This city gets most of its food from the sea (3 seafood resources), and a single privateer can starve Sury's best production city.

Then Djenne and Gao will build at least 8 galleons. I plan the first force to be about a dozen cannon and a dozen infantry. Just before starting the war, I will bribe Freddy to attack Toku, distracting both of them and hopefully diminishing their forces and research. Otherwise, Suly is sure to bribe Fred into the war with me. After Levees, KS and Timbuktu will start cranking out military with what will be respectable production. All major cities will build theatres and maybe colosseums to prepare for WW. Jails may also be built. Once a second wave of troops arrives overseas, while the first wave pushes inland, taking the Northern and central cities, the second wave will jump from coastal city to coastal city on galleons. Using sea transport in this way can greatly accelerate a war when using 1 move units. This second combat force will go around the island to the South, eliminating Japan's coastal cities. I will need to build galleons to meet up with them on the other side of the continent because the ice blocks passage. I will just take all cities as they are come upon, not caring if I am at war with all 3 AI at once. The military might will be unstoppable by their inferior units. All cities will be razed most likely. The one city I might consider keeping is Nagoya, to get pigs and crabs for health. The next great general will likely go to a second medic 3 unit so each attack force has one.

 

[xanadux]

Hopefully some of you following this thread are starting to notice a trend here.

The importance of planning.

I've broken this game up in the places I have to emphasize this point. Each round mostly started with my goals from the short to long term, and then a plan to sort out from the many options what appeared to me to be the best way to accomplish the goals.

There are a few main categories of plans that should pretty much all be kept in mind at all times:

Economic development
Military situation
Expansion ... horizontal (more cities and land) and vertical (bigger cities)
Tech path

The tech path is really a result of the needs of the other 3 situations. Tech paths are chosen to accomplish goals in the realms of economy, military, and expansion. Increasing production (hammers) benefits all areas of the game.

When I reach certain goals, I step back and make a new plan. As you can see from my posts, I don't just choose a tech to research on a whim, but typically have the next 5-10 techs planned out in order to efficiently reach a certain goal. As you get used to making plans, your games will develop a flow, and you will be able to see further and further ahead into what is likely to happen in the future and be prepared for it. When I settled my second city in this game, I already expected that I would probably end up with the 4 core cities I had before the war, and also that the war would take place shortly after researching Machinery for macemen. Since I hadn't scouted much yet, I didn't know what the nature of the war would be, but I had a pretty good idea of what was going to happen over the next 100 turns. As I was fighting the second war with Jao, I was already thinking about my plan to conquer the other continent, and considering the best path of economic development and technology to get me there the quickest. I could have taken Jao quicker, but it would have slowed my economy somewhat by delaying oxford and other developmental builds in my cities. Since I didn't really care too much when Jao died, as long as Lisbon was free to grow within a reasonable time period, I continued my economic development as soon as I judge that I had enough military to do the job.

 

[King Nunu]

Great thread!

Your monarch thanks you.

 

[Tyrant Roger]

This is a very usual and well written thread. I do think you were right to first focus on your economy before war. But IMO you should have gone to war 20-30 turns earlier than you did. Your neighbor was vulnerable, had some good land, and his cultural defenses were not very high at that point.

Your military campaign went well, but I would not have razed as many cities as you did. With your strong economy you could have absorbed the initial cost of maintenance with them and later converted them into strong supporting cities.

Sury's capital is your next target, but I would be reluctant to raze it. Maybe the Forbidden Palace should go there.

Why pursue conquest instead of domination?

 

[qwertz]

I have a question about the AP. If I were to keep Suly's capital, would the AP remain buddhist? He has a few wonders that would be useful, notably the mausoleum and spiral minaret. The parthenon would likely be obsolete by the time I took it. But it all depends on the AP. If it stays buddhist if I take it, the capital must be razed.

1. For the techs, I would get steam power ASAP for the levees and than some military techs.
2. Couldn't you keep Jao alive for some time and just send a lot of canons to him. they can't compleatly kill his units, but you could get a ton of exp. and GGP

The AP religion can't change, but if you own it you are automaticaly a full member and get all the bonuses as you were budhist.

You aren't that far from Mt.Rushmore+Jails+Police State for WW=0, and you don't really need that much gold for upgrading your units. Building some workshops over the cottages may be a good idea, but I don't really see the point in seting the research to 0% for the rest of the game.

I would also rethink weather you want a conquest or domination victory.

 

[xanadux]

This is a very usual and well written thread. I do think you were right to first focus on your economy before war. But IMO you should have gone to war 20-30 turns earlier than you did. Your neighbor was vulnerable, had some good land, and his cultural defenses were not very high at that point.

Your military campaign went well, but I would not have razed as many cities as you did. With your strong economy you could have absorbed the initial cost of maintenance with them and later converted them into strong supporting cities.

Sury's capital is your next target, but I would be reluctant to raze it. Maybe the Forbidden Palace should go there.

Why pursue conquest instead of domination?

Thanks for your input. I really appreciate feedback. I can see from the # of views that a lot of people are reading my thread, but most don't post. As for starting the war earlier, it could have been a little earlier, but the 20-30 turns you suggest would have meant using axes rather than maces. It was less than 30 turns from the time I could build maces until I started the war. Maces are so far superior to axes that I really think I did the right thing to wait for Machinery and maces to start building for the war.

As far as keeping vs. razing cities, In my opinion not a single city I razed was in an ideal spot. By razing them and settling the ideal spots later I gained 3 advantages. My short term maintentance costs were reduced, I didn't need to garrison these cities, and I founded superior cities.

As for conquest vs. domination, I think my military will be so overwhelming that conquest will be quicker. Even if domination is a few turns quicker, it is more tedious.

As for razing Sury's capital, it must be razed. There really is no other choice. As much as I would like to keep it, it is the AP city, and by taking it, I become a member having a buddhist city, and Sury will still be resident and can stop my war against him!

 

[xanadux]

@qwertz

I agree, and steam power became my #1 priority in round 7.

As for keeping Jao alive, when I post round 7, I think you will see that my forces are so numerous and powerful that there is no reason to delay things for mere exp. Round 7 will show just how quickly smart teching and city management can build a late game production juggernaut.

 

[rodneysandy]

An excellent thread.

You haven't quite got your spy strategy right. I find that if I send my spies in on the turn that the army arrives, the next turn I can lower the defences and attack. Having the spies in the city for only one turn means that the chances of having them caught is very unlikely. Use two spies for belt and braces effect.

Carry on the good work.

 

[xanadux]

But sending the spies in the same turn as the army arrives costs about twice as many EP as letting them sit 5 turns. I usually have good luck sending 2 spies in 5 turns before my army arrives. This is the first time I have had both spies die in 5 turns, and usually both survive. I don't think I would have had enough EP to drop Lisbon's defenses the first turn a spy arrived.

 

[xanadux]

Round 7

In this round I will show how just 5 core cities go from a powerhouse economy to an empire of massive production that still has a very strong economy while supporting a large army. This round is only 45 turns long, but I accomplish a great deal for just 45 turns:

- I build grocers, markets, jails, barracks, drydocks, banks, levees and courthouses as needed in all 5 core cities. Pretty much all of those cities built at least 4 of those buildings in this time, often several more.

- I build the ironworks in the capital

- I dispatch Jao

- I build a massive army ... 14 galleons, about 6 frigates, 4 privateers, 6 ships of the line, 30-35 each cannon and infantry, and those knights for the quest.

Turn 220 Switch to Replaceable Parts

Turn 221 Djenne finishes grocer and starts on bank. A bank will provide 10.5 more gpt, a courthouse only 3.5. Oporto finishes harbor and starts on galleon.

Turn 222 KS finishes courthouse and starts on grocer. I am prioritizing production a bit more now. I switch from grassland hamlet (3 commerce) to the mined hill, and switch the scientist to an engineer, reducin the build from 12 turns to 8. KS is going to be a military city, just like all my other core cities, and I want my support buildings up quickly.

Turn 223 screenshot

Spoiler :

Get gold rush random event in Oporto and get +3 pop. Finally remember to switch back to Organized Religion Civic. Gao finishes privateer and will build a couple more.

Turn 224 Timbuktu finishes grocer, starts on barracks. Great merchant cashes in for 1900 gold in Khmer capital. Switch science slider to 100%

Turn 227 Toku demands 600 gold. He must have stown away on one of my caravels to come begging since the Japanese don't know how to cross the ocean yet. This reminds me to make a demand of Jao. He has been massing axes in his new city. I'd rather have levees online and some cannon before he attacks. So I ask for 10 gold and get it. It's not that I have any fear of his 6 axes and 2 cats (I have a combined force of 6 maces and knights in each of the 2 closest cities). But that my war weariness with Jao is still over 800. I want a quick decisive war when it happens, and now it is delayed at least 10 turns. Finish knights quest, and take a very handy conversion of 5 of my cities to confucianism.

Spoiler :

Anyone know what you get for option 3? I forget what I needed to open it up, but remember it being impossible. OR opened up the one I chose. This saved me needing missionaries for Gao and Lisbon and my new cities.

Turn 229 Finish Steam Power and start on Corporation. KS, Timbuktu, and Lisbon all start on levees. Sury's golden age begins. Privateers have started arriving by Khmer capital. Are pillaging fishing boats and running blockades.
Djenne starts on drydock. Djenne is running 5 merchant specialists. This will get me a great merchant in 8 more turns. The workers have been developing the new cities, building farms and mines and chopping forests. They are
also starting to build workshops on the non river tiles around Timbuktu, KS, and Djenne.

Turn 230 Finish Corporation and start on Assembly Line.

Turn 234 Drydock finished in Djenne, start on Jail. War approaches. My 5 core cities must get theatres and jails built.

Turn 236 I'm not going to mention every city build here. Basically the 5 core cities are building theatre, jails, and whatever infrastructure remains to raise happiness and health. Since it will take only 9 turns, Timbuktu is
building the ironworks. We have iron near Lieria. Get a random event +1 food from grocer in Timbuktu. Very nice. That is exactly the city that needs it.


Turn 237 Gao has completed its needed infrastructure and starts building galleons. This is Gao's job until I have about a dozen or so.

Turn 238 Assembly Line completed. Start on Rifling. Great merchant born in Djenne. I am going to use him for a Golden Age. I added it up roughly, and using 2 gold for a hammer (what it would cost me to buy troops), it is roughly
equivalent to a trade mission. What tips it is I get the benefit now, and not 7 or 8 turns later.

Turn 241 Rifling completed, start on Military Science. Djenne is being converted into a production city with workshops and lumbermills. Djenne has also started helping with Galleon production.

Turn 243 Military Science completed, start on Railroad. Lisbon builds Military Academy with Great General.

A screenshot of Timbuktu:

Spoiler :

This is under a golden age, and there is some overflow on the bank. Timbuktu when not under a golden age produced 90 hammers a turn for a building, and 81 for units. This went up a bit with railroads on the mines and lumbermills and more population. Beakers would be about 450 at 100% without the golden age. Nice city, eh?

Turn 245 I could build pentagon in Timbuktu. But I could build 8 infantry in the same time. Since with Theocracy I will have 2 promotion units, I don't see the value of 2 more exp when I could have 8 more units. My units are so superior to the AI that 8 more units is far more valuable than 2 more exp empire wide that don't even give me another promotion.

Turn 247 Discover silver in mine S of KS. All 5 major cities now building either infantry or cannon. 14 galleons have been built. Soon Jao dies and we start the intercontinental invasion.

Turn 250 Railroad complete, start on Scientific Method. Workers start building RR on mines and lumbermills. My force of cannon and infantry moves to position to take out Portugal, and I declare war. I switch to Theocracy civic for exp. I should have done this 3 turns ago once all buildings were finished in core cities.

Turn 252 The 2 new Portuguese cities fall, SW of KS, and W of Lisbon.

Turn 254 Great General born in Niani. Will join a knight in a few turns for a second medic 3 unit.

Turn 256 Sury finally tries to break the blockade and loses 3 caravels to kill a privateer. screenshot:

Spoiler :

My privateers have done a good job. Sury has lost a lot of population and wasted time building over 30 caravels. The privateers also got me about 400 gold from blockades and pillaging fish. Sury has 17 caravels outside the city and 14 inside the city. Also both of those cities were size 14 when my privateers arrived. Now they are size 5 and 11. Jao eliminated. It took only 6 turns. All units move to prepare for the Khmer invasion.


Turn 257 turn science to 0 for a few turns to upgrade my CR3 maces to infantry

Turn 258 Joing my GG to a knight for a second medic 3 unit. I have the forces and the fleet for the invasion. I just need to wait a couple turns for the frigates to get into position for escort. I should have built these frigates earlier.

Turn 259 Upgrade maces, raise science slider again. I notice that I have built up 1700 EPs on Sury with all the jails. So I put every city on a spy. This should get me victory 1 or 2 turns earlier.

Turn 260 I hurry the spies with gold in 3 cities, all my core cities build them in 1 turn. I will have 8 spies now. Gao and Djenne switch to Ships of the Line. I don't expect any frigates to fight, and these ships are slower, but they
do a lot more bombardment than frigates, and a few of these bombarding the west coast of the other continent will shave more turns off the battle. At this point, a few more ground units aren't going to win the wars much quicker, but spies and ships to take down defenses so those forces don't have to wait will.


Turn 263 I get 500 free EP on Japan from random event. Finish Communism, start on Fascism for Police state and Rushmore. Switch civics to State Property. I think I will use the Great Spy from communism to infiltrate Fred.
I could save him and research Physics and use both great people for a golden age, but by that time, I'll have so many units it won't help much.

Turn 264 screenshot, 1770 AD:

Spoiler :

My army embarks. Sury must have gotten a spy over and ran a counterespionage mission. All the missions are 50% more expensive now. All the AI have caravels now.

Turn 266 Before attacking Sury, I bribe Fred against Japan. All it took was Nationalism which Sury already has. Sury's capital is taken. Despite the 105% culture defense and amphibious penalty, I attack straight off the boats. The main reason for this is him having the Statue of Zeus. If I land then take the city, he has 1 turn to attack my stack while still having the Zeus. This way, I minimize its effect. He only had 2 longbows, 2 knights and a pike anyway. I first softened the city a little with a CR2 cannon. About 25% odds to win. It died. But this raised the attack odds of my combat 2 infantry from 59% to 95%. 5 combat infantry attacks, and the city was mine. I landed roughly half my forces along with a medic 3 unit and the spies. All the CR3 infantry landed here, and I promoted all the other infantry I landed to combat 2 for defenders. The rest continue north on the ship to take the next city. Fred comes around and asks me to help kill those vile Japanese. I agree. Why not? Japan can't hurt me, and I'll be attacking him within 5 turns anyway. Little does Fred know he isn't far behind.

I ended the round here. There is some quote from one of the American WWII generals about battle plans only surviving until the first shot, but I couldn't find the exact quote. My plans have changed a little, as they often do when you have imperfect intelligence on the enemy. The goal for this round was to develop our war engine and build an army. That plus first contact in the war have been achieved.

Further comments to come soon.

 

[xanadux]

Some comments on Round 7.

The tech path became clear to me the more I thought about it. KS, Timbuktu, and Lisbon simply had to have Levees, so Replaceable Parts and Steam Power were called for first. Once the production tech was finished, I started towards Assembly Line for infantry. Corporation next rather than rifling because it gives me an extra trade route.

The cities built what they needed for infrastructure. I was short on health resources, so grocers got built before markets. Earlier in the game, happy was the limiting factor, so several cities didn't have aqueducts yet. Those were built (I think in Djenne, KS, and Lisbon). Gao was going to reach its production potential at a smaller size, and so did not build a grocer or aqueduct. Gao and Lisbon did not build banks due to low commerce, but banks went in Djenne, KS and Timbuktu. I knew I would be needing more and more gold as my army grew. Of course as soon as Steam Power was finished, the three riverside towns of KS, Lisbon, and Timbuktu stopped what they were doing and built levees. This was a great empire for levees, and production soared. I did not build a levee in Gao, even though it could build one. If I remember correctly, a levee was 180 hammers. Gao had a forge and 4 riverside tiles, so a levee would give a benefit of 5 hammers per turn. It would take 36 turns for a levee to 'pay for itself'. This is another case of long and short term trade offs. I was going to need a lot of navy, and I had only 2 good cities to produce it (later on Walata become a decent production city, but too late to really contribute in a meaningful way). Getting a benefit 36 turns later was not as valuable as building galleons right now. The decision was close though. If Gao had had just 2 more riverside tiles to work, the levee would have given the benefit fast enough that the galleons would be built in time for the invasion. All 5 cities built theatres and jails to deal with war weariness. I expected this to be a problem before I got to fascism for police state and mt. rushmore.

I think it is more important to pay attention to what I didn't build in my 5 core cities than what I did build. Specifically, Gao did not build a grocer, aqueduct, bank, or levees. Lisbon did not build a bank. If I thought wall street would be worth the time to build it, Lisbon and Gao would have built banks, but the relatively unproductive banks in those cities would delay my army, and since Timbuktu, the best choice for wall street already had oxford and would have the ironworks, KS would have to build Wall Street for less effect. This is a lot of production, and since I didn't foresee running out of money, chose to get on with military production.

My goal here was to get an invasion force built as quickly as possible. All production and research went towards this goal. Once I started on military, my 3 inland cities were producing more than 2 units a turn between them, and the 2 port cities were building about 1 1/2 naval vessels per turn between them.

I did make a mistake that delayed the invasion by about 3 turns. I forgot to build a few frigates to escort my galleons, and my forces were ready a few turns before the frigates got to my launching point.

I didn't really pay close attention to the new cities. They weren't going to grow into very productive cities without a lot of close attention on my part. I probably lost a few turns on winning the game by not closely managing theses cities, but I am not really into massive micromanaging unless it is necessary. I micro-manage early on when it has the most effect, and tend to do less micromanaging through the game. My games would turn out better if I always paid attention to the details all the way through, but the game just isn't as much fun for me micromanaging more than about 5 cities. This probably has a lot to do with why I don't play on immortal level.

The Golden Age was pretty sweet here, and came at about exactly the right time. Since levees were just completed, Lisbon got extra hammers from its grassland farms. The GA let me very quickly finish the last buildings I needed, and get Assembly Line quickly for quicker infantry. This accelerated the time of the war much more than a trade mission would have. Waiting for later game golden ages makes them more powerful. Later in the game, more of the tiles you are working are likely to be producing hammers, plus your empire is bigger and your cities are too. 2 more things should cause you to delay using a Great Person on a GA. Not having the Mausoleum which makes the GA 50% longer, and being spiritual. An earlier golden age can be very powerful when you aren't spiritual, and can save up to 4 or 5 turns of anarchy if you need to make some civics switches. When not spiritual, one of my favorite uses for a golden age is when I want to build an army up, and also will need to build the midgame buildings like markets and grocers and universities. So what I do is switch over to all the military civics (assume the pyramids are built) ... Police state, vassalage, and theocracy, saving usually 3 turns of anarchy, build units throughout the GA in all my cities, then switch back to the economic/builder civics the last turn of the GA: Representation or US, Bureaucracy, OR.

It has been asked why I am going for conquest. Simply I think it will be quicker. I've played a few turns of Round 7, and by the time even the first captured city I took would come out of anarchy, I will have 3 armies taking cities on the new continent with a 4th on the way. With a medic 3 unit for 3 of the armies, and my overwhelming force and technological superiority, I think the war is going to be so short that domination would take longer. A lot of the cities I would need to keep are pretty big too, and that means a lot of turns of anarchy.

 

[xanadux]

I also think it is of note that I haven't built a single world wonder yet. I also haven't built the national epic.

Frankly, my cities always had something better to do. The only wonder that I really thought worth the time would have been the Oracle. But I explained earlier why I didn't build it (it's kind of cheating to me to take something like philosophy with the oracle). I built the Moai statues rather late. Djenne just always had more important things to do than build Moai (which I personally think many people build too early because they overestimate the benefit) or the National Epic. The only national wonders I have built:

Timbuktu: Oxford and Ironworks
Djenne: Moai Statues
Lisbon: Heroic Epic

Only one more is going to be built, and that is Mt. Rushmore, probably in Lisbon. West Point is very expensive, and the extra experience is of limited use when fighting a war of infantry and cannon against longbows, knights, and musketeers.