Map Resources Ideas and Discussion

[0100010]

I tried searching but could not find a thread just on Map Resources, so made this one.

BonusInfos.xml (from v29) needs an overhaul to update alot of the map resources with the new terrains. I also thing that alot of the placement xml values should be tweaked and expanded to more terrains or features (or restricted in some cases).

A very quick example is whales need not be restricted by latitudes, they migrate and travel the worlds ocean. I watched plenty off shore in Hawaii, so why are they upper latitudes restricted in game?

I was actually trying to work on this overhaul myself (until my harddrive crashed), which I'll post more details on later when it is done, but wanted a thread to put my ideas on it in first.

 

[0100010]

First idea/question:

Ancient Temples: How are they currently functioning and implemented? Last I recall (its been a while since I brought a game as far as archaology and/or scientific method) They would reveal at that tech and then you could go explore them via improvements and such.


I'd like to see Ancient Temples removed as a map resource and attached to the building of various prehistoric, ancient and classical era wonders. Similar to how MAchu Picchu works. Build the pyramids, pyramid of the magician, etc. Get a free ancient temple resource in the vicinity of the city that built it. You'd still be able to improve and alter its usefulness later with things like scientific method and archeology, even long after the wonder itself went obsolete. The bonus still leaves behind a nice effect for the rest of the game.

Your thieves and rouges could raid them if they belong to the enemy. You can attach more events to their presence throughout the game.

You can have a multi-stage improvement for them for different eras, from religious significance in early era, to tourist attractions in late eras.

Maybe this is partly been done already, I am still trying to catch up on all the changes...

 

[Thunderbrd]

I know we discussed having the ruined cities become them after a time...

 

[0100010]

Ruined cities currently exist as an improvement, I like having them remain in existence on purpuse for the treasure events and the like. So I would not want to see them get converted unless the converted forms continue to support that.

Has multiple improvements per tile ever been implemented or even considered? I know there is work for supporting multi-features going on.

MY greatest annoyance though is automated workers clearing the ruins. Last game I played (v27 i think) they did not leave them alone even with leave existing improvements turned on.

 

[0100010]

"Spies" routinely stole resources from one area on the sly to build them up elsewhere. This happened with rubber, various spices, silk and coffee for sure. (stealing enough adult animals is a lot harder than stealing alot of seeds, so maybe for flora resources only)

I think this should be an espionage activity.

A stronger distinction should also be made for some flora (and sometimes fauna) in regards to diplomacy trading. You do not trade the entire rubber tree, you trade away its latex product. Soething that by itself a great farmer cannot build a new tree out of. The same is try of silk. You do not trade the silk worms, you trade the products it creates. Hence why in both of these cases china and brazil had such a monopoly and tried to keep it that way for a long time, until "Spies" managed to steal the worms and seeds to relocate them elsewhere.

Other flora has similar effect due to processing. You trade roasted coffee, not viable seeds if you want to keep your monopoly. However for somepl plants this is alot harder to pull off like grains and potatoes. The product and the "seed" are the same thing.

The AI should treat trading of the raw form of map resources in a much more restrictive manner, but compensate with better intermediary forms. WE have a good start with this via the manufactured goods but they are currently so prolific and generalized they hold little trade value.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Ruined cities currently exist as an improvement, I like having them remain in existence on purpuse for the treasure events and the like. So I would not want to see them get converted unless the converted forms continue to support that.

Has multiple improvements per tile ever been implemented or even considered? I know there is work for supporting multi-features going on.

MY greatest annoyance though is automated workers clearing the ruins. Last game I played (v27 i think) they did not leave them alone even with leave existing improvements turned on.

No support at this time for multiple improvements or multiple resources. However, I would think that it would be good if after a long enough time of being left in ruin, the old city ruin sites would spawn an archaeological resource in that tile if no other resources have it claimed yet. This would mean that the city ruins would remain just as they are and could even be destroyed later after having left their hidden archeological resource to be discovered again in the future.

"Spies" routinely stole resources from one area on the sly to build them up elsewhere. This happened with rubber, various spices, silk and coffee for sure. (stealing enough adult animals is a lot harder than stealing alot of seeds, so maybe for flora resources only)

I think this should be an espionage activity.

A stronger distinction should also be made for some flora (and sometimes fauna) in regards to diplomacy trading. You do not trade the entire rubber tree, you trade away its latex product. Soething that by itself a great farmer cannot build a new tree out of. The same is try of silk. You do not trade the silk worms, you trade the products it creates. Hence why in both of these cases china and brazil had such a monopoly and tried to keep it that way for a long time, until "Spies" managed to steal the worms and seeds to relocate them elsewhere.

Other flora has similar effect due to processing. You trade roasted coffee, not viable seeds if you want to keep your monopoly. However for somepl plants this is alot harder to pull off like grains and potatoes. The product and the "seed" are the same thing.

The AI should treat trading of the raw form of map resources in a much more restrictive manner, but compensate with better intermediary forms. WE have a good start with this via the manufactured goods but they are currently so prolific and generalized they hold little trade value.

DH has discussed plans on this and I'm sure has given this stuff a lot of consideration. Sounds like you two should have a chat

 

[ls612]

Other flora has similar effect due to processing. You trade roasted coffee, not viable seeds if you want to keep your monopoly. However for somepl plants this is alot harder to pull off like grains and potatoes. The product and the "seed" are the same thing.

The AI should treat trading of the raw form of map resources in a much more restrictive manner, but compensate with better intermediary forms. WE have a good start with this via the manufactured goods but they are currently so prolific and generalized they hold little trade value.

I would really disagree with this. I see the realism component here and am willing to recognize that there are many real-world cases this is true, that processing is important. However, for the sake of gameplay I don't want players to have to spend too much time micromanaging their manufacturing and production facilities, and am willing to assume that that is done in the background by your citizens.

 

[0100010]

I would really disagree with this. I see the realism component here and am willing to recognize that there are many real-world cases this is true, that processing is important. However, for the sake of gameplay I don't want players to have to spend too much time micromanaging their manufacturing and production facilities, and am willing to assume that that is done in the background by your citizens.

Do you feel the same way about the various ore smelters? That is essentially the same thing.

What if these type of buildings were auto-built as soon as the proper city vicinity resource were detected as being hooked up?

IE when you build a hooked up silk farm improvement, you gain a silk weaver which produces X "Silk Cloth" for free? Though question now is can X be made to be dynamic based on the number of map resources hooked up in the city vicinity? (which can change over the turns)

 

[ls612]

Do you feel the same way about the various ore smelters? That is essentially the same thing.

What if these type of buildings were auto-built as soon as the proper city vicinity resource were detected as being hooked up?

IE when you build a hooked up silk farm improvement, you gain a silk weaver which produces X "Silk Cloth" for free? Though question now is can X be made to be dynamic based on the number of map resources hooked up in the city vicinity? (which can change over the turns)

Yes I am against that, but Hydro did it anyways and I figure that that specific application isn't something to fight about.

 

[0100010]

A <bCoast> tag would be useful for BonusInfos xml. AM I correct in assuming that special coding was done for things like Sea Lion and Seal, and Walrus to make them coastal only? This flag could handle that more appropriately. It would also make more sense for Coconuts to be coastal only.

 

[ls612]

A <bCoast> tag would be useful for BonusInfos xml. AM I correct in assuming that special coding was done for things like Sea Lion and Seal, and Walrus to make them coastal only? This flag could handle that more appropriately. It would also make more sense for Coconuts to be coastal only.

I believe most mapscripts have code to ensure that those bonuses are on a coast. Adding code for that may also interfere with another project which is ongoing, so I'd say to wait for now.

 

[0100010]

I doubt I'd be the one adding it anyway, its just a suggestion, which could simplify things for the long term. What is the other project?

 

[Thunderbrd]

Georealism... which I really hope hasn't been abandoned by primemOver as I've been looking forward to it. Seemed like we were right around the corner from implementation on that and then he ran into some stumbling blocks and we haven't heard much from him since.

 

[ls612]

Georealism... which I really hope hasn't been abandoned by primemOver as I've been looking forward to it. Seemed like we were right around the corner from implementation on that and then he ran into some stumbling blocks and we haven't heard much from him since.

I hope prime hasn't left for good either, I was really looking forward to georealism. His last activity on this forum was on the 11th though.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

A <bCoast> tag would be useful for BonusInfos xml. AM I correct in assuming that special coding was done for things like Sea Lion and Seal, and Walrus to make them coastal only? This flag could handle that more appropriately. It would also make more sense for Coconuts to be coastal only.

I believe most mapscripts have code to ensure that those bonuses are on a coast. Adding code for that may also interfere with another project which is ongoing, so I'd say to wait for now.

Currently there is a C2C post map script that runs after the random maps are generated. It

• changes coast and ocean to tropical and polar where necessary
• places sea lions on some one plot islands (walrus to if arctic ie north polar) and polar coasts (land)
• adds mangrove and cactus features - I haven't figured out why cactus is not being places properly.

While coconuts are mostly spread by ocean currents I don't think they actually require coasts to grow.

 

[0100010]

Well my ultimate goal for cleaning this up was to eventually make a more realistic map script. I read up on the Georealism thread. it is ambitious but seems far more complicated than it needs to be.

I doubt I'd do such in an SDK, and stick with normal map scripts, although I am a programmer, Ive not done so in python yet.

For what I'd ultimately want to make, I am going to take the view of assuming the (newly adjusted) XML is correct and can be used for proper placements without requiring a post map script pass. So thing like those tags mentioned thus far would still be useful to me.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The Georealism project converts maps made by Python map scripts into more realistic planets. It still needs the Python map. It also exposes much more information to the game allowing for increased simulation.

BTW I still need to add some code to the post random map script to restrict resources a bit. The current definitions don't allow restriction of resources by anything other than distance, in degrees, from the equator so kangaroos can appear in the northern hemisphere for example.

 

[0100010]

BTW I still need to add some code to the post random map script to restrict resources a bit. The current definitions don't allow restriction of resources by anything other than distance, in degrees, from the equator so kangaroos can appear in the northern hemisphere for example.

I don't think there is anything wrong with kangaroos appearing in the northern hemisphere on a randomly generated map. For that world, that is just where they happen to evolve. There ought to be set to bArea=1 so that they are restricted to the civ area they happen to be in, so they wont show up everywhere. (Unless the continent spans both hemispheres, but if it does then its still plausible.)

Besides if the random map made no large land masses in the southern hemisphere, it might not have a place to put them, and therefore they won't show up at all.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Besides if the random map made no large land masses in the southern hemisphere, it might not have a place to put them, and therefore they won't show up at all.

Which is a good thing - it helps make each game different. That is part of the point of having animals have ranges. The fact that those ranges may not be in the game at all and that how your nation evolves does depend on the animals and plants available to it.

 

[0100010]

Does Min and MaxLattitude Tag currently respect negative numbers? I noticed the Kangaroo resource does in fact have a negative number assigned there.

Rather than add new hemisphere tags, we should make those tags respect negative values if they don't. OF course that means all the existing resources need to be adjusted for such.