1. Firaxis celebrates the "Asian American and Pacific Islander Heritage Month", and offers a give-away of a Civ6 anthology copy (5 in total)! For all the details, please check the thread here. .
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Old World has finally been released on GOG and Steam, besides also being available in the Epic store . Come to our Old World forum and discuss with us!
    Dismiss Notice

[R&F] Mapuche First Look

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by bite, Jan 30, 2018.

  1. Kimiimaro

    Kimiimaro King

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2017
    Messages:
    3,800
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Paskov
    @pgm123, but after the Second Punic War, didn't he try to improve Carthaginian situation from his position of Suffet? If I know well, he cared about happiness of common Carthaginian people, he tried to make Carthage merchant superpower of Mediterranean again, and he also tried to reduce the power of rich and corrupt oligarchy, which is why they hated him and exiled him.
     
    Zaarin likes this.
  2. Guandao

    Guandao Rajah of Minyue and Langkasuka

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2011
    Messages:
    5,658
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    New York City
    I always fail the notice the clipping on the leader animations. I don't know why....
     
    Zaarin likes this.
  3. Kimiimaro

    Kimiimaro King

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2017
    Messages:
    3,800
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Paskov
    Maybe, but not the most ugly. This goes to Cleopatra by far :p
     
    Guandao likes this.
  4. Josephias

    Josephias Emperor

    Joined:
    May 8, 2007
    Messages:
    1,207
    I agree -5 per kill alone will not be useful. But I'm interested to see your math. I'm not inclined to start the problem myself (that's what I do for work, so gaming for me has to be something else), but I would find interesting checking the numbers. It all depends on which is the standard loyalty balance - if it sets an average -+20 per turn, of course it is nonsense. But if (as I think it would be in normal cases, the average is under +-10 per turn getting two or three kills may help tipping the balance, gaining 2-3 turns and getting the city to rebel before the opponent can take defensive loyalty action by means of buildings/governors/social policy changes). This, I think, will be the strenght of the ability, trying to flip a city only through military does not seem the best option.
     
  5. Guandao

    Guandao Rajah of Minyue and Langkasuka

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2011
    Messages:
    5,658
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    New York City
    Cleo's better looking when she is friendly....:p But I think they made her chest too big....Plus giraffe neck....
     
    Zaarin likes this.
  6. Thormodr

    Thormodr Servant of Civ Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2005
    Messages:
    5,000
    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    Ahhh...good. I was about to mention that you left out Mongolia. :)
     
    Alexander's Hetaroi and Guandao like this.
  7. Gutmensch

    Gutmensch Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2017
    Messages:
    6
    You can see the palace at around 1:04 in the First Look. I believe they are in the medieval or renaissance era during that portion of the video. Also, it looks the Mapuche didn't just get a unique palace, but also a unique city design (at least for the time being).
     
    CivLuvah and Alexander's Hetaroi like this.
  8. Uberfrog

    Uberfrog Deity

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2007
    Messages:
    2,916
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    England
    The reaction so far is pretty positive, see, e.g., https://twitter.com/HistoriaMapuche.

    With Mapuche resistance to the environmental destruction being caused to their lands very much still a relevant issue, I feel this portrayal of resistance is likely to be quite favourable in the minds of many Mapuche - see https://www.mapuche-nation.org/blog/defiance-of-the-mapuche/.
     
  9. pgm123

    pgm123 Emperor

    Joined:
    May 21, 2017
    Messages:
    1,168
    Gender:
    Male
    Carthage had a regional impact, not a global one. Though Mapuche territory was probably closer in size to Tunisia, so I'll agree they had less of an impact. The Inca, however, had a much larger impact than Carthage. They dominated the Andes more than Carthage dominated the Western Mediterranean.

    He did try to improve Carthage from his position as Suffet (Judge) and I'd argue he did a good job. Carthage also used its peace dividend effectively. But he was resisted every step of the way and his civil impact wasn't lasting because he never took authority away from the Oligarchs and things were just as corrupt when he was gone. But I think his role as Suffet does give him a better case than he'd have if he was simply just a general. I'd hope they had war-weary older Hannibal if they pick him as leader because at least that hasn't been done before.
     
    Zaarin, Thormodr and Guandao like this.
  10. Leyrann

    Leyrann Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2015
    Messages:
    4,298
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Netherlands
    Global. Impact.

    Well, if you see "the mediterranian" as global, I guess it holds.
     
  11. Josephias

    Josephias Emperor

    Joined:
    May 8, 2007
    Messages:
    1,207
    Cleo's attractiveness is in attitude, and looks. I tend to think Gitarja has a good balance between cute and sexy...

    But yes, I think we need the Russian Caty as an alternate leader... except if they go the Civ III version :s
     
  12. Magil

    Magil Monarch

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    1,618
    The math is based around the assumption that a newly settled city starts at 100 loyalty and, most of the time, will have positive loyalty pressure. In order to flip, it must drop to 0 loyalty. Now, you can reduce its yields by pillaging and reducing its loyalty below 75, and that is marginally useful (the pillaging is better than the loyalty drop, because you directly get something out of the pillaging). But for me war is always more about gaining something for myself rather than hurting my opponent, and the loyalty doesn't gain me anything without some big investment (for what benefit? Just build some units and take the city by force already). Maybe, maybe it will, in some circumstance somewhere, drop the city's production so that it delays ancient walls by a turn or two. Seems highly situational to me, but it might happen at some point.

    So to use your example, if a city is gaining 10 loyalty per turn, okay you can kill three units next to the city to drop it from 100 to 85... then it goes to 95 next turn. Even if you kill another unit it'll be at full next turn, and just how many units are you expecting to kill? No, for this to be useful, a city will need to be decreasing in loyalty already, and you may be able to speed up the flip by a few turns. In which case, it becomes a free city, which I don't see as a good thing, for reasons I already stated (why do my units get kicked out of its borders? Free cities shouldn't enforce borders. Movement is already annoying in Civ VI).
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2018
    Tiger Genocide and Josephias like this.
  13. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2011
    Messages:
    5,333
    If they're going to move away from series staples, can't they at least justify the newcomers by giving them unique gameplay that dovetails with something the civ is notable for? We've seen that with Scotland, but we've also had a version of Georgia that could have been reskinned as Byzantium without changing any of its abilities, and now we have a civ that - despite tangentially relating to most of the new systems in Rise and Fall - is both weirdly generic and not clearly a good fit specifically for the Mapuche. Even the summary doesn't attempt to justify the 'extra experience in cities with governors' in relation to Mapuche history, despite making efforts to associate all the other abilities with 'Mapuche' things (albeit things the Mapuche share with basically any other society subject to European colonialism - Lautaro's ability could have been given to Shaka with no changes, as for that matter could the civ ability).

    Civ VI has passed 'peak improvement' - there's not much left to do with improvements, so we get another rinse-and-repeat culture improvement.

    Only the loyalty loss for defeating units in their territory is an interesting take, but again it could be given to basically anyone and makes no actual sense for the Mapuche specifically (did many Spanish cities rebel after military losses?). Overall this feels a wasted opportunity - both for costing us an established civ that could use comparable abilities (Ethiopia, for instance) and for adding a new name to the roster without giving them anything that feels fresh or distinctive, or communicates who the Mapuche were.
     
  14. ltccone

    ltccone Prince

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2003
    Messages:
    471
    Location:
    Virginia, USA
    If Carthage had defeated Rome
    A victory by Carthage over Rome in the Second Punic War would have changed the history of three continents.
     
    conorbebe likes this.
  15. frubox

    frubox Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2017
    Messages:
    79
    Gender:
    Male
    So many ifs and maybes and woulds...
     
  16. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2017
    Messages:
    7,981
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Texas
    I'm assuming that a governor=a toqui in this regard. Although I agree that it could have been demonstrated in maybe another way.
     
  17. Leyrann

    Leyrann Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2015
    Messages:
    4,298
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Netherlands
    If.

    Seriously?

    IF???

    Well, it did not happen. This is a history-inspired game, not a fairytale-inspired game.
     
  18. Duuk

    Duuk Doom-Sayer Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2005
    Messages:
    1,975
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Detroit, Michigan, USA
    And if the Byzantines hadn't been busy fighting each other, Islam may have never become a thing. There we go, now the cycle is complete.

    Can we get back to discussing how awesome this civ is? I like the idea of a defensive culture "snapping turtle" civ.
     
  19. Schug2K

    Schug2K 2K Games Staff

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2017
    Messages:
    9
    Gender:
    Male
    Here's some info about Lautaro's agenda!

    Spirit of Tucapel
    Tries to create and maintain a high degree of cultural loyalty. Dislikes civilizations that fail to maintain the loyalty of their people, likes those who do.
     
  20. Giskler

    Giskler +1 Sleuthing

    Joined:
    May 19, 2007
    Messages:
    2,398
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Norway
    Allright, no silly golden age hating :)
     
    Jewelrunna, Guandao and Kimiimaro like this.

Share This Page