March of the Trees

[fredcdobbs]

Recently tried this for the first time, pretty amazing. Seems like a great defensive spell against invaders. All my trees vanished at once. Is there a turn limit, or was it because I ran out of cash?

 

[Grey Fox]

They have 5 turn duration. They used to create a new forest on the tile they end their last turn, but that doesn't seem to happen anymore.

The weakness of this spell is of course that it resets all Ancient Forests into new forests.

 

[lordrune]

Still, a five-turn Treeant for just about every tile in your empire is pretty cool, if there's an enemy SOD in your empire you can say goodbye to it It's only a matter then of finding something useful to do with all your huorns before they get bored and go back to sleep again.

 

[Avahz Darkwood]

That spell has saved me from stacks of doom on many occasions. Thats the only time I use them, cause unless I am at war and a substantial enemy city is on my borders, you end up wasting it...

 

[ushram]

Its not only a defensive spell, all you need to do its save up a couple settlers and pop them at the same time in forests along the borders of an enemy u are going to attack

Its really too OP in its current form imo, should be a % of forests

 

[Avahz Darkwood]

Its not only a defensive spell, all you need to do its save up a couple settlers and pop them at the same time in forests along the borders of an enemy u are going to attack

Its really too OP in its current form imo, should be a % of forests

Hmmm interesting idea hummm!!!!

 

[Zechnophobe]

If in a major war, you can basically capture most or all cities 5 squares outside your borders .

I still think Warcry is a much better attack spell though.

 

[phoulishwan]

I like to use it as a scouting tool on turn 1-2. Although I don't usually play with goody huts, so no bonuses there, but it sure does make it easy to clear out goblin forts and lairs without fear of popping a boss type mob, all the potential benefits of early lairs without the risk

 

[DioBrando]

It would be nice if you could make all treants start in fortified mode though. It's a hassle to press F over 100 times.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

It would be nice if you could make all treants start in fortified mode though. It's a hassle to press F over 100 times.

yes, please

 

[ushram]

I like to use it as a scouting tool on turn 1-2. Although I don't usually play with goody huts, so no bonuses there, but it sure does make it easy to clear out goblin forts and lairs without fear of popping a boss type mob, all the potential benefits of early lairs without the risk

imho, that is a total waste of the world spell

and how exactly do you do that when it has a prereq of "way of the forests"...

 

[phoulishwan]

Advanced starts. I don't like having poison enabled barbs or lizardmen ruins on my borders, they can easily be game enders so I remove them, if you think it's a waste I don't care...because I don't need treants to win a game, nor do I need them for warring, in fact whenever I'd used them prior, I get soo many I delete most of them so I don't have to turn my research down or take a huge gpt hit while they're around, so much of a pain that I'd actually rather make use of them early on instead of never using it at all. Maybe if you don't build an army they're useful otherwise they're more a hindrance to research due to the huge increase in gpt loss. I want my units to get xp not some temporary summons, so they are of little use to me in a war effort, however they are very useful at taking out high risk enemies in the early stages of a game.

 

[ushram]

Advanced starts. I don't like having poison enabled barbs or lizardmen ruins on my borders, they can easily be game enders so I remove them, if you think it's a waste I don't care...because I don't need treants to win a game, nor do I need them for warring, in fact whenever I'd used them prior, I get soo many I delete most of them so I don't have to turn my research down or take a huge gpt hit while they're around, so much of a pain that I'd actually rather make use of them early on instead of never using it at all. Maybe if you don't build an army they're useful otherwise they're more a hindrance to research due to the huge increase in gpt loss. I want my units to get xp not some temporary summons, so they are of little use to me in a war effort, however they are very useful at taking out high risk enemies in the early stages of a game.

Well should have been stated that it was on advanced starts lol Generally when one thinks of turns 1 - 2, it is with one settler,1 city, 2 scouts.
Its still not the ideal time to use it imo but to each his own, i personally like the barb attacks in the beginning to help boost promotions of my early units, esp to gain subdue animal as quick as possible.

I also do not use the world spell as a crutch. I use it more of a wild card. In case i get teamed up on or to help front a massive attack. Like i stated earlier if u pop settlers with it along enemy borders u can have a huge invasion force to be used on multiple civs. ( depending on the map layout of course, it all depends on ur borders and the borders of others. Took out 3 ai civs once with that single spell)

 

[BillSeurer]

I used it to crush Hyborem one game. He appeared right on the edge of this absolutely HUGE forest and was all snotty to me. I ignored his demands and he declared war. Seeing the trees crush his puny forces was great fun.

 

[zup]

It turns out he was not as successful in adding Erebus to Agares' vault than I was last game.

 

[JonathanStrange]

As the Ljosalfar cannot use the World Spell March of the Trees until they have spent nearly 2000 beakers in research [ Ancient Chants (210 beakers), Mysticism (336), Hunting (604), Ways of the Forest (840) ] I would say the Elves' World Spell better be powerful or why bother?

Then, once you get your World Spell capability, you need Philosophy (672) and Priesthood (1344), another 2000 beakers total, to be able to recruit Priest of Leaves (120 Hammers) which are built at a Temple of Leaves (120 Hammers) in order to get your blooming forests going so as to be sure to have enough Treebeards worth summoning.

Again, the World Spell better be powerful, I only wish it were true in reality as some might think it is in theory.

The theory might suggest that the March of the Trees is so powerful that the Elves should have been limited to only a percentage of their forests spawning Treants. Perhaps if an Elven nation had a large empire completely or even mostly forested, it might have (for five turns) a strong, slow-moving army that could stop many invaders. (If the Elven nation were so large and so forested, it'd also be much less likely to need this army anyway but... you know... they might want to have some fun.)

However, the reality is you rarely have most (or even much) of your lands forested when you need the spell, the Treants don't live long, they're often too far away from the area needed (arriving just as their short life-span dissipates), and you lose all your ancient forests' (they become new forests) economic benefits in casting the spell.

It's a spell best used in desperation by an empire falling to a super invader or by an empire positioned by size or geography to win by knockout without regard to the economic effects.

I don't understand why someone would play the Ljosalfar and then just basically "get rid" of the World Spell by using its potentially powerful and civ-saving effects to clear out lizardmen and barbarians? Even if one did have access to it with an Advanced Start, it'd be like taking a shotgun to get rid of moths or mosquitoes.

If your civilization is so small that lizardmen and barbarians are such a threat that they're possible game enders (an idea I don't buy 'cause even at the Immortal/Deity level I play on, raging barbarians are an annoyance but unlikely "game enders" to a player with reasonable caution), then your access to Treants from the World Spell would be small also since you'd be unlikely to have much land, and even less forests. Sure you'd kill any barbarian that you could catch for five turns but then you'd have used up your "ace in the hole."

The idea that the temporary Treant army of five turns would be an unacceptable maintenance problem slowing research or preventing regular units from earning combat promotions (because the Treants were making the kills) is problematic: a desperate civ wouldn't care about the cost, and a powerful one could afford a five turn Treant mob. And opportunities for combat promotions? They aren't hard to find.)

My practical experience with the March of the Trees? On the Immortal/Deity levels, I've used it mainly for desperate attempts to stop powerful invaders or in the infrequent case when I've had several rival cities very close to my civilization's forested borders (and vulnerable to slow-moving Treebeards.) Often I don't need the spell at all, and use it only because the win's inevitable anyway, so it'd be unlikely I needed the insurance.

The March of the Treants is an impressive but temporary spell, usually costly to acquire and very dependent on geography and forested areas. Casting the spell makes your valuable ancient forests into new bloom forests and your Treant recruits are often not where you need them. And when you're faced with AI civilizations that can field huge stacks of champions or beastmasters or pyre zombies, etc. while your Treants are often scattered far and wide, it's not an automatic win or guaranteed salvation to cast "March of the Trees".

I like having it as another tool in the arsenal but it's not usually the knockout punch we'd like it to be.

 

[Earthling]

Well, I think this is one of the better world spells in the game - not too weak, not overpowered, fits thematically, and interesting. It pairs up perfectly with an endgame altar or tower of mastery, which with a large elven economy you can also get to pretty quickly. I haven't ever used it offensively (in fact only played a couple games total as them) but it's a solid spell once you get to it and definitely a good reserve to have in case of any surprise attacks. At Norrell's pupil: you do realize again that the guy said he was playing advanced starts - changes the game a whole lot in the first place (since early tech/exploration is so crucial). I actually don't think that's all too bad.

 

[Cliftor]

Its not only a defensive spell, all you need to do its save up a couple settlers and pop them at the same time in forests along the borders of an enemy u are going to attack

Its really too OP in its current form imo, should be a % of forests

Wow, that's a really clever idea I hadn't thought of. But aren't you then stuck with a bunch of less-than-ideally located Pop1 crap-cities?

I suppose you could let the enemy cap them, but you still wouldn't be able to raze them...

 

[xaosseed]

However, the reality is you rarely have most (or even much) of your lands forested when you need the spell, the Treants don't live long, they're often too far away from the area needed (arriving just as their short life-span dissipates), and you lose all your ancient forests' (they become new forests) economic benefits in casting the spell [..snip..] I like having it as another tool in the arsenal but it's not usually the knockout punch we'd like it to be.

Emphasis mine. I wholeheartedly agree with this take on it; the scattered start of the treants means that whole blocks of treants will be too far from the action. The problem I've found with aggressive use of it is that *after* the boom, when you've crushed everything and grabbed all you can within five-turns-shamble... then you still have to defend it from everything thats six-plus turns away... and so you'd better have lots of capable forces... and then if you have them, the spell wasn't so desperately necessary in the first place...

I mostly use it as an excuse to run my defense strategy looser than I should; take risks and leave defenses short-staffed; if it all goes wrong, the trees can eat any one assault and hopefully buy me the time to retool from butter to guns.

 

[JonathanStrange]

Well, I think this is one of the better world spells in the game - not too weak, not overpowered, fits thematically, and interesting. It pairs up perfectly with an endgame altar or tower of mastery, which with a large elven economy you can also get to pretty quickly. I haven't ever used it offensively (in fact only played a couple games total as them) but it's a solid spell once you get to it and definitely a good reserve to have in case of any surprise attacks. At Norrell's pupil: you do realize again that the guy said he was playing advanced starts - changes the game a whole lot in the first place (since early tech/exploration is so crucial). I actually don't think that's all too bad.

I wasn't putting down the spell; I was objecting to the idea that the March of Trees was overpowered and to the opposite idea that it was so pointless that one might as well use it to kill some lizardmen.

Yes, I was aware that one guy was playing advanced starts; using a one-time-only spell summoning Treants for exploration (hawks would be cheaper and available since you'd have the Hunting tech) is...legal, I suppose.

Yes, the Ljosalfar budget would take a temporary hit (depending on the Treants summoned) but generally you're not calling a Treant Jamboree for no good reason; you're saving your civilization or seizing an opportunity to knock out a civ, capture important cities, kill a stack o' doom. That'd be worth a little decrease in research, I'd say.

I've played dozens of Ljosalfar games at the Immortal/Deity level so I've called an Ent Moot or two; I wouldn't say the March of Trees was overpowered or underpowered. If civilizational borders or thick forest cooperate (meaning, for example, the enemy's cities and your forests are close enough that the otherwise widely scattered Treants can do enough damage before they go to sleep again) then yes, you can take a city or two, even a down-on-its-luck civilization (usually in the mid game).

March of Trees is a great spell as is, not too powerful that any enemy civilization should fear it, not too weak that they can ignore it.