Marines and paratroops

[denis97y]

AI is often producing a lot of marines and paratroops for other civilizations. What is the point to use marines after industrial age when they are almost hopeless against mechanized infantry and modern armour even they make amhibious assaults? What is the point to use paratroops, because their range is quite limited and they are very weak as defensive units. Usually air units are much better for destoying the title improvements... Shortly what is the good point to employ paratroops and marines in mass (after industrial age)?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Nothing that is at 1/2 strength (air power help) beats a marine attacking amphibiously. Nothing. Unless you can get 10 xp they stay the best naval assault unit in the game for most of it. They ARE better in industrial than vs mechinf though. You wouldn't use tanks vs modern armor would you? You can, but you'd need support to win. Same deal for marines.

With paratroops you're doing it wrongly . Nuke the cities clean of units and paradrop to take it the same turn. They can also be dropped and win battles if you have enough air support to soften defenses. If you have either nukes or dominant air there is nothing faster through enemy territory except the rare commando unit.

 

[revengeofmakno]

Well, I very seldom use them. The amphibious advantage of marines can be real but if you make a point of having the capability to bomb amphibious targets into a weak state anyway (supplemented by cruise missiles if necessary), having marines is not an issue. Control of the air is vital in modern battles and amphibious invasions without command of the air are seldom a good idea and if you have command of the air, the defenders will be in trouble. Obviously, it matters less if you have overwhelming numbers but if that is the case, then unit distinctions are not the issue.
Paratroops also have limited utility. If you don't have a transport and you need to take over an island or cross over a body of water or maybe mountains, they can come in handy but those situations seldom come up.

 

[totalepicness]

I always build Marines for the original attack on say an island, and then use Modern Armour to finish them off. I also build Marines/Paratroopers for city defense, because they get the fortification bonus and I always give them the 10% city defense and the 30% city defense + 10% strength promotions when I build one. So since they have 24 strength, their strength for defending is 42, and attacking is 26.4. They also take less hammers than Mech Infantry or Modern Armour.

Modern Armour are much better for attacking cities on land.

 

[oldskald]

In defence of Marines... before Mech Inf (and excepting against Air) you just can't get a better Industrial city defence bang for buck unit than a Marine. Build it in a West Point + settled GG city with barracks and you have a strength 24 unit with CGIII out of the box + 50% vs Artillery. Personally, I love them, and combined with some SAM Inf as a garrison they can really soak up the punishment. Plus they are a resourceless unit; no oil? No problem! Also, they look cool

As for Paras.. they are a situational unit. However, they can have their uses, particularly if you look at them as suicide units. Paradrop (in some numbers; say 3/4/5) them on a vital line of communication and watch the AI expend their counter-attack on them rather than on the main stack. If you use them as they were historically used, and don't expect them to survive, then they can do a job. And of course, as TMIT notes, use them in combination with nukes (or deep penetration Gunships) and they can do a very respectable job.

 

[need my speed]

Marines are underestimated; they are the best unit until Tanks come around, if I remember correctly.

 

[Nick Carpathia]

Marines come out at the same time as tanks. Of course, tanks need oil.

Tanks are absolutely awesome as well, I've really grown to appreciate 2-movers in warfare. Who cares about bombardment? You literally blitz through everything in your path. Of course, you can think of Marines as 8-movers as well

 

[Ataxerxes]

Marines come out at the same time as tanks. Of course, tanks need oil.

Tanks are absolutely awesome as well, I've really grown to appreciate 2-movers in warfare. Who cares about bombardment? You literally blitz through everything in your path. Of course, you can think of Marines as 8-movers as well

Tanks are an awesome unit, no doubt. I do care about bombardment, however. For shore cities you can use Battleships and Destroyers. Espionage works its wonders here too. As soon as I get tanks I like to go for Flight and Radio to get Bombers and Fighters. At that point my siege is basically obsolete.

 

[totalepicness]

Tanks are an awesome unit, no doubt. I do care about bombardment, however. For shore cities you can use Battleships and Destroyers. Espionage works its wonders here too. As soon as I get tanks I like to go for Flight and Radio to get Bombers and Fighters. At that point my siege is basically obsolete.

I still would always bring Artillery/mobile artillery to the attack, especially when you're deep into enemy territory and too far inland for those carriers.

For coastal cities, I bring carriers, destroyer/battleships, and get some artillery there too.

 

[Asterix Rage]

Marines and Para are badly used by AI. I agree, AI produces too much for nothing.

As a human you can use them for very specific missions, to bring the mess in enemy territories. I use them to create second or third front. Often, the cities far behind the front line is badly protected...

Also, in many mods, Para can be upgraded in helicopter. The good thing to do is to get the promotions non available to helicopter before to upgrade them.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I have so rarely built Paratroopers that I'm not even certain how they work. Anyone care to explain the logistics involved with using with them?


For example, when you "drop" the paratrooper, what kind of a source square does it have to be in? Can it be dropped from anywhere within your Cultural Borders or does it have to start from a specific type of square, such as a City or a Fort?

Can one be "dropped" from a Transport or Galleon (or Galley for that matter)?

Can one be "dropped" from an AI's territory? If yes, does that apply to any AI that you are not at war with but have Open Borders with? Just your Vassals and Teammates? Just your Teammates (where Teammates are set at the start of the game or are obtained via a Permanent Alliance, if you enabled the Permanent Alliances setting)?

I'm guessing no to the following question, but can one be dropped from within Enemy territory?

Do you need full movement points to drop a paratrooper or just "more than 0.0" movement points remaining?

Do Airports help in any way, such as extending the radius of a drop?


When you drop, can you drop directly onto enemy units or do you have to land beside them?

Can you drop directly into an empty City (one cleared out with Gunships or Nukes) or do you have to land beside said City?

Can you drop onto an AI's units, say, an AI's City that has units in it, if you are not at war with said AI and have Open Borders with said AI, or are you absolutely forced to drop in a square that does not contain any units that aren't yours?

Can you drop INTO a Transport/Galleon/Galley, i.e. land on the boat?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

You can drop paratroopers on an unoccupied tile ANYWHERE within range (I think it's 4 or 5 tiles). They will have a movement point on landing, but can not attack. However, if a city is cleared (IE nuked to hell) they can capture it. Aircraft can intercept them. They can paradrop from any friendly city - vassal, OB ally, captured city, fort in culture, etc as long as they haven't moved that turn.

It is possible to capture a city, then move paratroopers into the city and paradrop from that captured city on the same turn.

If you're not at war you can drop onto the same tile/city as another civ; it's only at war where you can't drop on their units/cities. I've never tried dropping into naval units.

However, using nukes + paras it is possible to one-turn-KO AIs on many maps, even if they have multiple inland cities. As long as each is within range of your tactical nukes, you can almost always move into port and paradrop there. I've used this to cut down 10+ cities on the turn I declare, erasing an AI almost instantly (and completely on the following turn). From start of war to end of war, there is no faster way to fight. Nuke, paradrop capture repeat, and stack size defending the city doesn't even matter .

 

[Dhoomstriker]

However, using nukes + paras it is possible to one-turn-KO AIs on many maps, even if they have multiple inland cities. As long as each is within range of your tactical nukes, you can almost always move into port and paradrop there. I've used this to cut down 10+ cities on the turn I declare, erasing an AI almost instantly (and completely on the following turn). From start of war to end of war, there is no faster way to fight. Nuke, paradrop capture repeat, and stack size defending the city doesn't even matter .

So, just to clarify, am I right in thinking that:
1. You are capturing an AI's Coastal City
2. On the same turn, you are moving a Transport that contains a Paratrooper into said Coastal City
3. Since the Paratrooper still has its full movement points and since it is currently in a City which you own, you are then are able to immediately drop the Paratrooper next to an inland City?


If I understood you correctly, that approach is quite a powerful tactic!

 

[Ghpstage]

So, just to clarify, am I right in thinking that:
1. You are capturing an AI's Coastal City
2. On the same turn, you are moving a Transport that contains a Paratrooper into said Coastal City
3. Since the Paratrooper still has its full movement points and since it is currently in a City which you own, you are then are able to immediately drop the Paratrooper next to an inland City?


If I understood you correctly, that approach is quite a powerful tactic!

Indeed it is powerful. The nukes you send at an inland city should clear it, and with no defenders a para is allowed to take it on the turn he dropped. Its annoying when something stupid like a Worker, Missionary or corp executive survives preventing the para from taking it though .
The only thing that beats paras at this are units with Commando. Those are capable of taking a city 'defended' by those civilian units, have a longer range and are capable of taking multiple empty cities on the same turn! Of course the downside is that these are rarely available and almost never in significant numbers.

 

[totalepicness]

But if you nuke a city then capture it, does the radioactive stuff go away or do you have to scrub it?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

But if you nuke a city then capture it, does the radioactive stuff go away or do you have to scrub it?

You have to scrub it.

But when a 3000-4000 score AI disappears in an instant without even an opportunity to move its units, that's often worth it.

 

[totalepicness]

oic, ty

 

[Ramjack]

You have to scrub it.

But when a 3000-4000 score AI disappears in an instant without even an opportunity to move its units, that's often worth it.

I would love to see this played out on you tube !

 

[vranasm]

would need further testing, but I think I once paradrop paratroopers from transport...

 

[kochman]

Nothing that is at 1/2 strength (air power help) beats a marine attacking amphibiously. Nothing. Unless you can get 10 xp they stay the best naval assault unit in the game for most of it. They ARE better in industrial than vs mechinf though. You wouldn't use tanks vs modern armor would you? You can, but you'd need support to win. Same deal for marines.

With paratroops you're doing it wrongly . Nuke the cities clean of units and paradrop to take it the same turn. They can also be dropped and win battles if you have enough air support to soften defenses. If you have either nukes or dominant air there is nothing faster through enemy territory except the rare commando unit.

Anyone not heeding the complete accuracy of this post is missing out.