Maritimes patched!

[lordsurya08]

Call me a noob, flame me all you like, but I prefered the old maritimes, which gane 4/2 food, instead of the 3/1 food now. Is there a way I can go back to the old 4/2? I looked in the Global Defines and the Config files but I didn't find any way to do it. Do I have to mod the game to do it?...

Thanks.

 

[BomberEscort]

It's in GlobalAIDefines.xml under:

FRIENDS_CAPITAL_FOOD_BONUS_AMOUNT_PRE_RENAISSANCE
FRIENDS_CAPITAL_FOOD_BONUS_AMOUNT_POST_RENAISSANCE
FRIENDS_OTHER_CITIES_FOOD_BONUS_AMOUNT_PRE_RENAISSANCE
FRIENDS_OTHER_CITIES_FOOD_BONUS_AMOUNT_POST_RENAISSANCE
ALLIES_CAPITAL_FOOD_BONUS_AMOUNT
ALLIES_OTHER_CITIES_FOOD_BONUS_AMOUNT

 

[Martin Alvito]

Play as Siam. It's 5/2 after rounding.

 

[cman2010]

You think thats bad they took away all the scientist slots from the library.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Of course people who relied on them before would prefer them the way they were before. But now cultural and militaristic have a bit more of a use.

 

[lschnarch]

Of course people who relied on them before would prefer them the way they were before. But now cultural and militaristic have a bit more of a use.

Do they?
Or will they become even more insignificant, as one will spend all the money to bribe ALL maritime city states?

 

[Louis XXIV]

If you think that's the best use of your money go for it. I'll use that gold to buy a handful more units and then conquer your Maritime City States. They won't become less useful even if they are used less. That's a personal choice if you feel having that many Maritime City States are necessary for victory.

 

[lschnarch]

If you think that's the best use of your money go for it. I'll use that gold to buy a handful more units and then conquer your Maritime City States. They won't become less useful even if they are used less. That's a personal choice if you feel having that many Maritime City States are necessary for victory.

Maritimes mean more money or more production or more specialists or any combination of this.
I would say they are quite powerful and it's almost impossible to have to many of them as allies.
And the fact that *you* might try to conquer them is not a valid argument in SP games. Even in MP games it would depend on the mapsize, as I'd assume.

 

[Beef Hammer]

I ignore CS completely unless i need a resource they have and i take it. They are more annoying then fun as a game feature imo.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Maritimes mean more money or more production or more specialists or any combination of this.
I would say they are quite powerful and it's almost impossible to have to many of them as allies.
And the fact that *you* might try to conquer them is not a valid argument in SP games. Even in MP games it would depend on the mapsize, as I'd assume.

Yeah, I was exaggerating a bit there. Still, if a Maritime used to cost 500, now it costs 1000 to have the same effect. The typical ICS strategy I saw was two Maritimes. Is it worth spending 2000 gold on two Maritimes when you can get four cultural ones and really cruise through the SP tree or invest in granaries, etc. and go with something with more guaranteed return. Especially considering all that needs to be done to lose access to Allied Maritime City States are either that they're conquered or someone else gets a slightly higher influence than you.

 

[Celevin]

Yeah, I was exaggerating a bit there. Still, if a Maritime used to cost 500, now it costs 1000 to have the same effect. The typical ICS strategy I saw was two Maritimes. Is it worth spending 2000 gold on two Maritimes when you can get four cultural ones and really cruise through the SP tree or invest in granaries, etc. and go with something with more guaranteed return. Especially considering all that needs to be done to lose access to Allied Maritime City States are either that they're conquered or someone else gets a slightly higher influence than you.

Yes, yes it's worth it.

Due to its linear nature, it's going to either be overpowering or not at all worth it depending on your number of cities. For an empire small enough, there's always better uses of gold. For an empire large enough, there's no better use for gold. We can't talk about Maritimes without specifying an empire size (well, we could with the old ones because they were overpowered even with as small as 3 cities ).

 

[Louis XXIV]

Well, I suppose the question is how many cities does it take to make it worthwhile. For me, if the amount is large enough, then there's enough other problems with the strategy (cap by happiness) to perhaps make other alternatives better.

 

[Celevin]

Well, I suppose the question is how many cities does it take to make it worthwhile. For me, if the amount is large enough, then there's enough other problems with the strategy (cap by happiness) to perhaps make other alternatives better.

I think it's a pretty easy calculation even though I'm far too lazy. Each food in a city lets you switch from 1 farm tile to 1 trading post tile, so each food is essentially worth +2 gold minimum (more factoring in other things like city growth). Then calculate how much a Maritime city state gives in food, and costs you in gold.

 

[Ahriman]

Each food in a city lets you switch from 1 farm tile to 1 trading post tile, so each food is essentially worth +2 gold minimum (more factoring in other things like city growth)

Simplistic, since farms can give 2 food with civil service or fertilizer.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Keep in mind you also have to do more than break even for it to be worthwhile. If I were really ambitious, I'd do a marginal analysis too instead of a total analysis. But I too am very lazy (and I don't know the gold to influence ratio formula either).

 

[Celevin]

Simplistic, since farms can give 2 food with civil service or fertilizer.

Yeah, it's pre-Civil Service. Gotta keep it simple, otherwise we'd have to look at the gain in gold from extra population from combining the Maritimes with the farms, then factor in the unhappiness from that extra population, then, then, then...

It's really hard to put a gold price on food in this game. To me it's worth "at least 2 gold", so we can calculate a minimum worth of a Maritime from there.

Keep in mind you also have to do more than break even for it to be worthwhile. If I were really ambitious, I'd do a marginal analysis too instead of a total analysis. But I too am very lazy (and I don't know the gold to influence ratio formula either).

All we need to know is that it beats out pretty much every other gold purchase for a somewhat large empire.


I once decided to see the impact, so I clicked "stop growth" in all my cities which each had a reasonable number of food and gold tiles. I then declared war on every cultural city state, noting that I was still positive happiness. My gold and production dropped like a rock as all my cities switched to food tiles.

 

[Ahriman]

Yeah, it's pre-Civil Service

But thats not most of the game.

Gotta keep it simple, otherwise we'd have to look at the gain in gold from extra population from combining the Maritimes with the farms, then factor in the unhappiness from that extra population, then, then, then...

Recognizing the complexity of the task I think is part of having a real answer.

To me it's worth "at least 2 gold"

So, can we assume that you farm every river tile after Civil Service, and every flat-land tile after fertilizer?

Food is not always worth at least 2 gold; if that were so then you'd never build trading posts.

I would say rather the opposite; 1 food is worth at *most* 2 gold. That is an upper bound, rather than a lower bound.

All we need to know is that it beats out pretty much every other gold purchase for a somewhat large empire.

Agreed.
However, I am finding that farms are more worth building now, as are granaries in some cases, and that grassland is not as inferior a terrain. That may be though because I'm playing India (more pop always good) and only have 1 MCS on my continent.

I then declared war on every cultural city state, noting that I was still positive happiness

Assume cultural is a typo?

 

[alpaca]

If you play India, farms are very worthwhile. Other civs are capped by happiness more strongly.

The simplest analysis is comparing to the 1 per you get by switching from a CS farm to a trading post. Upkeep of a maritime CS costs in the worst case 250 for 25 influence, so 10 per item. If influence degrades at 1 per turn, it then makes sense to switch if you have 10 cities.

In reality, the problem is much more complex, though. You usually want to work mines for a long time before you work TPs. Farms take many worker turns, which could be better spent building mines or roads. In a new city, maritime food is available immediately while farms or granaries are not. And not all cities are near fresh water anyways.

 

[Louis XXIV]

You also have to keep in mind that it costs 500 gold to get one food, so 1000 gold to get the equivalent of a CS farm.

 

[alpaca]

You also have to keep in mind that it costs 500 gold to get one food, so 1000 gold to get the equivalent of a CS farm.

Yes but the investment is not much larger than buying a couple of workers, which you need if you want to farm.