Marsh, what is it good for? Absolutely nothing!

[JosEPh_II]

Joseph, so tell me again, why the russians and canadians are not draining their vast tundra areas (which is mostly marsh once the permafrost is not so frosty anymore)? Marsh on tundra should not be drainable, though a climatic change might turn the whole area into swamp first, and THEN into huge areas of high quality agricultural land.

Why? The Russians and Canadians are not involved in this mod's development. I find your response irritating.

This is a game not real life. It's a matter of playability and wringing every last drop of resource available to be the best empire you can be, wether player or AI.

I play this Mod for it's complexity not for it's natural or historical accuracies (although zappara has been very diligent from a historical standpoint), maybe you do. So I want the marsh to be usable in some form wether you do or not, wether the Russians or Canadians drain their marshes/tundras or not.

JosEPh (Old and slow............Watchout!)

 

[c0d5579]

Yes, but it's also a mod based on realism. Otherwise why not include "Magic Happy Fairy" units that make your opponents go away?

The reason the Russians and Canadians aren't thawing their permafrost and draining the swamps created thereby is because it's expensive and they don't see the benefit compared to the cost.

 

[JosEPh_II]

The whole post from BB about Russian and canadian marsh was irrelevent.

A tangent at it's very best to the preceding postings.

That's why I responded the way I did.

c0d5579, Are you trying to push *buttons* to? Up to now your posts have been thoughtful and on track. Why the rabbit trail now?

JosEPh

 

[Bastian-Bux]

Joseph, actually you are trying to push buttons. ^^ I did ask you about the russians and canadians for exactly the reason c0d5579 pointed out.

Sure, it should be possible to drain marshes, but it should be prohibitive to do so on tundra. Like hundreds of turns worker time. It should not be impossible mind you. But it should be realistic in so far as not making any economic sense expect under the most unusual circumstances.

Plus it would also be great if marsh below djungel would be terraformable in agricultural land ... but revert to useless broken terrain after a few turns. Though this will be to difficult to code I suppose.

Yes, this mod is about having fun. But its also about realism. Your very ... lets say, onesided POV is pushing buttons with those people that actually like this realistic part of the mod.

 

[c0d5579]

The whole post from BB about Russian and canadian marsh was irrelevent.

A tangent at it's very best to the preceding postings.

That's why I responded the way I did.

c0d5579, Are you trying to push *buttons* to? Up to now your posts have been thoughtful and on track. Why the rabbit trail now?

JosEPh

Of course I'm trying to push buttons; I have to push one every character I type, and there's one I have to click to submit reply. So posting without buttons is difficult at best.

My point here is that if you're saying "yes, but it's a computer game, it doesn't have to be realistic!" then why are you playing a game where every civilization you pick, you're saddled with real-world "greatest hits" units like the Roman legions, the Mongol keshik, et cetera, rather than free-form unique units created in-world? As soon as you start accepting hand-wave solutions in the name of fun over realism, you start down the path to magic happy fairy units. In the case of draining marshes, it's been tried countless times through the centuries, and I can give you examples if you haven't read my posts already. Until modern times, it was very nearly impossible. I say "very nearly" because, as I pointed out, the Benelux countries are basically built on reclaimed swampland.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Of course I'm trying to push buttons; I have to push one every character I type, and there's one I have to click to submit reply. So posting without buttons is difficult at best.

:lol That's funny! Also arrogant but still funny. As for the rest of your post all I can say is...so what? And you have no real idea why I play BtS/CIV IV/RoM etc..

As soon as you start accepting hand-wave solutions in the name of fun over realism, you start down the path to magic happy fairy units.

Point in case.

Joseph, actually you are trying to push buttons. ^^ I did ask you about the russians and canadians for exactly the reason c0d5579 pointed out.

But BB your response was actually irrelevant to what my post previous to this digression was responding to. That's why I responded as I did. And whether my POV is one sided, that's a matter of opinion now isn't it.

Now since zap is the one that added marsh to the Mod I'm sure that he will have the last say. And that he doesn't mind dissenting opinions either.

Have nice day.

JosEPh

 

[zappara]

Just for your info, I tried several times to lower the amount of marsh terrain plots generated before that patch was released - the changes I tried just didn't make any difference...

 

[0100010]

People keep arguing about it being draining able or not. your forgetting some of the mechanics of the game engine. At current, the marsh is abase terrain unto itself, peat bog is just a feature that can show up on it.

RoM, as far as I am aware, doesn't have a mechanics in place that allows changing the base terrain. (except through world builder which has nothing to do with RoM) so you can't just swap it to grass land. Peat bog is just a terrain feature that has rules about what type of base terrain it can show up on top of during map creation. (Marsh base terrain only in this case)

There is really just two options if you want to emulate some type of drained/cultivated marsh.

1. Get rid of marsh as a base terrain and make it a feature only. Make the rules for the feature along the lines of grassland only, adjacent to rivers and/or fresh water. Give workers the ability to chop the marsh terrain (thus revealing the grassland underneath) as a specific tech level, such as civil engineering, or the canel/irrigation tech or such.

2. Keep Marsh as it, but allow, at the same tech mentioned above, a new improvement to be build "cultivated/drained marsh" which workers can build only on marsh terrain not covered by a peat bog.

As for other things mentioned, I don't think peat bog should be a resource. I think early fuel sources are sufficiently assumed. There are problems with the current resource count anyway, and I just don't see adequate use being made out of peat a resource in terms of game mechanics. What kind of units or buildings would it make sense in game terms to to require peat? Would the AI know what to do with it? how would it get valued in trading?

Might as well make forest preserves buildable on marsh and/or peat bogs if they are not already. (I haven't checked) It makes sense from a conservation point of view, and then at least you can do something else with them.

Lastly, the only other thing I find odd is when a marsh shows up with a hill on it, marshes are by definition low land areas where water collects. A hill on them doesn't make sense.

 

[c0d5579]

Point is that Marsh should be drainable.

As for which buildings should benefit from peat - off the top of my head, Forges and their subsidiaries. Of course, that'd also say they should benefit from Forests and dung-producing animals. I'm quite willing to accept that the production bonus from woods, Horses, and Cows is from their use as fuel; problem is I'm not seeing an equivalent production bonus from peat, which is an easier fuel to harvest in volume than dung, and burns better than wood in some cases. So +1 Hammer to marsh tiles in general, since separating a peat bog from a marsh is mostly a matter of semantics from where I sit?

There are a couple of spawn problems for marsh. As we've been dancing around, marsh in tundra doesn't actually make much sense, if we accept tundra to be a permafrost condition, unless formed by global warming. Same with marsh on hills - never seen it, but I agree, that's a little nutty.

So I guess what we have is that Marsh should be a terrain feature rather than a base terrain, giving +1 Hammers, healthiness loss as per jungle, removable with Civil Engineering and a big pile of money, spawning on Plains and Grasslands with a preference for rivers?

 

[Bastian-Bux]

0100010 actually there are two kinds of marshes/bogs. They are called "lower bog" and higher/rain bog" (translated from german Hochmoor and Niedermoor/Sumpf) respectively. The lower ones are situated along water lines, as you correctly say it. The higher ones are growing into hills due to the development of peat. So yes, bogs can be situated on hills, ctually they have grown the hills themselves.