MarsNES (set-up)

[kkmo]

Coming later.

 

[kkmo]

This will be the set-up (preNES) thread for MarsNES. This is where you make your claims and we can discuss anything else that might be of concern to you. Questions and suggestions are both appropriate and welcome.

Oh, I forgot to mention. I had also had some plans to possibly bring various types of plant life into the game that may have different effects or purposes (so there would be more detail in the concept of terraforming, for example). We can discuss this further. I'm definitely open to ideas.

Also, the introduction has been changed from the original posting.

 

[Terrance888]

Wait... the only thing I ask is WAR.

Space cruisers (after certain amount of points... 5000?) to attack domes, effective killing all within!

F-4 as before.

 

[Neverwonagame3]

I claim J3, as before.

New Homeland
Leader/Player: John Walker / Neverwonagame3
Location: J3
Population / Growth Rate: (number of people in your colony) / (percentage growth rate)
Economy: (how many credits you receive each turn without technology bonuses) / (how many credits you receive with technology bonuses) / (how many credits you receive with technology bonuses and trade revenues)
Trade Routes: (list your trade routes, including the other person's colony name and the trade route percentage and total value)
Trade Revenue: (the amount of points you receive each turn from your Trade Routes)
Build: (list what improvements you will build this turn, or that you will invest money into, and what Level)
Bank: (credits you are saving)
Improvements: (list the improvements you have already constructed and what Level they are)

Background:
The colony of New Homeland was designed as a long term revenue investment. As the population rose, so would property values, allowing for future sale of property. Due to the continued existence of strict immigration laws in many places, and a Third World, New Homeland would have a good supply of indentured servants, politically incorrect though it was.

Ultimately, the plan was to maximise profits by a mix of property values, Internet sites (laws in New Homeland were far more permissive), the prospect of using drugs (while the company Board eschewed it, the colony permitted tobacco, marijuana, heroin, alcohol, and other drugs completely unrestricted, illegal or not elsewhere. They simply taxed it., Gambling, illegal research (genetic engineering had been banned, amongst other things), acting as a safe haven for criminals (though they would have to pay a regular fee...), and more.

This would be combined with the legitimate industry of manufacturing goods from imports on Earth, and whatever else people desired to put up.

 

[kkmo]

I like what I see, neverwon. Do you have a specific Nationality? Is your organization called New Homeland as well?

Drugs and slaves on Mars. Nice.

 

[Neverwonagame3]

Indentured servants are not slaves- they would be given their freedom after a certain amount of time.

The nationality of John Walker is British, but his company is largely American-funded.

 

[Symphony D.]

What is the broad concept, and why the veto?

Anyway, I would like to know what is broad [...]

Have you ever read Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars Trilogy? Ben Bova's Grand Tour? Any other extensive fiction on colonization of Mars? How familiar are you with the time-tables or proposals on colonization as currently published by NASA? What's your background on terraforming? How much do you know about economics and geopolitics?

I'm going to guess the answers are no, no, no, little, little, little, and little.

Lets look at the backdrop first. The year is completely wrong to begin with. You've already committed the extremely grevious error of somehow assuming that human progress, both spatially, technologically, and politically has somehow failed to advance notably at all in the course of 500 years. This is not simply bad, not simply wrong, it is inexcusable. That this is covered up with "A realistic backstory is not really required since this game will require story posting," is both ironic, as the first line of the actual rules is "This NES will require absolutely zero story-telling," and is the proverbial finger in the hole in the dike.

To explain that, your starting populations. A thousand. Are you kidding me? Do you know how large Earth's population would be the year 2501 if humanity had no other outlet, even assuming it somehow stabilized? 15-20 billion. Do you think that with the technology available at such a time that they would send a few piddly thousands, and leave it up to a few dinky corporations to handle the entire pressure release valve for the planet? I don't.

Furthermore, since technology has somehow not advanced in that period, do you think these colonies will be mysteriously independent of the home planet for developing complicated technologies they don't have the manufacturing base for, like fission reactors? Are you telling me that in that 500 year block that people somehow managed to produce replicators but were too stupid to bother colonization of other bodies in the Solar System? Backstory doesn't matter my arse, the backstory is everything, and in neglecting it you set up virtually every other problem that follows.

Lets look at the actual rules. Your population quotas are, as discussed, utterly unrealistic and, even ignoring the backstory, miniscule in comparison to the actual numbers required to create a functioning, independent colony. Trade routes? "When you discover your neighbors?" Why would there not be a functional satellite network in place to facilitate communications, weather monitoring, and global positioning? That's step one in starting a colony. It's kind of hard to know that somebody isn't around. Furthermore, what are they going to trade? Rocks? No, they're going to be getting all of their trade from Earth except for maybe mundane items a given colony has a surplus of, because none of them are going to be making or refining anything at a lower cost than it will take to import it, unless for some reason the humanity of 2501 is still using chemical rockets.

The entire improvement category is gimmicky and the excessively limiting. Particularly so the Terraforming section. Terraforming is the end-all, be-all of something on Mars. It is not simply another thing that you happen to do, it is something on the scale of the Manhattan Project. It is not something a puny colony of 10,000 people can engage in and realistically achieve.

Oh, and while I'm at it, domes are stupid unless you have engineered magical radiation-opaque materials, as otherwise your people sit around on the surface soaking up grays of radiation and getting cancer. The answer is rock, and it is expressed in hollowed out mesas or underground warrens.

The technology tree is likewise ridiculously limited and stilted toward the "immediately applied" with no steps between development or execution. For some reason, instead of researching say, human physiology, people just sit around trying to think up cooler gyms? Come on!

The system as it exists is also incapable of transitioning to large populated settlements, of conducting meaningful economic growth and development, of emulating diplomacy and discourse between Mars and Earth, of eventually facilitating the rise of independent entities, of modeling warfare, modeling research and discovery, modeling espionage, or generally any of the things that make NESes really exciting. It's niche. Planetary colonization under these rules is basically boiled down to "buy stuff" like the Business NESes seen so far.

Anyway, I would like to know what is broad and why the map is terrible.

It's tiny and virtually non-representative of Mars? I actually am the forum authority on this matter, so I would know:

Spoiler :

---

In short, this effort strikes me as a totally underwhelming and uninformed execution of a colonialization NES. I say that not to mean disrespect, but to accurately and pointedly provide criticism. I do not see from this material as presented that enough research has been done to make the experience memorable or justifiable. To me, it looks amateur, rushed, and forgettable.

There's nothing wrong with that. You don't have to appease me to proceed, you've already got at least two interested players, and I'm sure you could get more. But from where I sit, this is non-interesting due to its lack of scope, and I say veto.

 

[kkmo]

Here is what the map will look like with some claimed colonies:

Spoiler :

As your colony grows, you will see it grow on the map, as well.

 

[Neverwonagame3]

Actually, I agree with Symphony D's points about it being unrealistic, and am on the brink of withdrawing because it be.

By the way, Symphony, what did you think of my idea? Did it add to the realism problems, and if so how much?

 

[rhawn]

I'd like to play. Reserved for profile etc.

 

[kkmo]

Lets look at the backdrop first. The year is completely wrong to begin with. You've already committed the extremely grevious error of somehow assuming that human progress, both spatially, technologically, and politically has somehow failed to advance notably at all in the course of 500 years. This is not simply bad, not simply wrong, it is inexcusable. That this is covered up with "A realistic backstory is not really required since this game will require story posting," is both ironic, as the first line of the actual rules is "This NES will require absolutely zero story-telling," and is the proverbial finger in the hole in the dike.

Its called a typo. I meant to say, "this game will not require story posting". If you read the rules, it emphasizes this a few times. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. NASA is pretty much my only source of knowledge on the subject, along with the first book in Robinson's trilogy.

I don't understand the criticisms in this paragraph. The rules say that Earth has achieved a high level of political unity and advanced peace. There is an underlying sense of cultural harmony on the planet, which is why colonization is being undertaken. One of the main points of colonizing Mars on all realistic accounts of the subject say that the most fitting geopolitical situation would be one of relative stability and peace, and cooperation between nations.

In my rules, I not only mention this, but I also make references to the technology and how advanced these efforts are. How does this imply that Earth has not gone anywhere in 500 years? They have done plenty. They have developed technology and have progressed through limits. Just read the first two paragraphs of the rules, and you will find this.

To explain that, your starting populations. A thousand. Are you kidding me? Do you know how large Earth's population would be the year 2501 if humanity had no other outlet, even assuming it somehow stabilized? 15-20 billion. Do you think that with the technology available at such a time that they would send a few piddly thousands, and leave it up to a few dinky corporations to handle the entire pressure release valve for the planet? I don't.

Yes, I think realistically that they would not want to send a large amount of colonists at the beginning. I know, for a fact, that the colonization of Mars and any NASA references explicitly say that the best course of action would be to smart small and aim big. Sending the initial group of colonists, would be a small group, and eventually more colonists would be sent (which I have already said would happen through events during Updates). Anyway, if this really bothers the masses, it is perfectly easy to change 1,000 to 10,000 or any other number for that matter.

Furthermore, since technology has somehow not advanced in that period, do you think these colonies will be mysteriously independent of the home planet for developing complicated technologies they don't have the manufacturing base for, like fission reactors? Are you telling me that in that 500 year block that people somehow managed to produce replicators but were too stupid to bother colonization of other bodies in the Solar System? Backstory doesn't matter my arse, the backstory is everything, and in neglecting it you set up virtually every other problem that follows.

Again, why do you think technology has not advanced in that period of time? They are colonizing Mars, not your backyard. The fact that they are able to send ships there with 1,000 people in the first place, and have all of the improvements I have listed, obviously implies the technological advancement. 500 years is not a long time. I know it sounds like a long time, but I am a hardcore realist. I think the majority of science fiction accounts of Mars are entirely inaccurate in their assumption that it would take 200, no, even 300 years, for us to get there with a colony. I am pessimistic perhaps in my beliefs when it comes to this matter, and we can discuss that - that is what this thread is for. Again, this is a simple modification to the year of the game.

Ah, backstory. My intention for this game was for the players to come up with the backstory, along with myself. I didn't want to impose my will of upon this forum.

Lets look at the actual rules. Your population quotas are, as discussed, utterly unrealistic and, even ignoring the backstory, miniscule in comparison to the actual numbers required to create a functioning, independent colony. Trade routes? "When you discover your neighbors?" Why would there not be a functional satellite network in place to facilitate communications, weather monitoring, and global positioning? That's step one in starting a colony. It's kind of hard to know that somebody isn't around. Furthermore, what are they going to trade? Rocks? No, they're going to be getting all of their trade from Earth except for maybe mundane items a given colony has a surplus of, because none of them are going to be making or refining anything at a lower cost than it will take to import it, unless for some reason the humanity of 2501 is still using chemical rockets.

The lack of satellites was part of the initial rules, actually, which set up the game as if people were escaping to Mars via wealthy corporations to escape corruption in nations, violent wars, and overall gradual destruction of Earth. The entire concept has now been changed (partly thanks to neverwon's suggestion of a realistic backstory). That is why a preNES such as this exists. The "discovering your neighbors" concept was, more or less, a game mechanic - something that you need in order to maintain steady and controlled communication with your neighbors (you obviously already know where they are, it isn't about discovering them in that way [and I mention this in the rules], but it is about forming the economic base and the infrastructure to conduct communication with them via your satellite (to connect to a satellite, you need uplinks, you need an infrastructure base, these things do not grow from Martian soil).

The entire improvement category is gimmicky and the excessively limiting. Particularly so the Terraforming section. Terraforming is the end-all, be-all of something on Mars. It is not simply another thing that you happen to do, it is something on the scale of the Manhattan Project. It is not something a puny colony of 10,000 people can engage in and realistically achieve.

Terraforming is extremely important to this NES. You do not have a growth rate at all without it. At all. This is the basis for the game. Did you read the rules at all? Terraforming enables your colony to grow in the first place. Without it, you have 1,000 people sitting around in living spaces, constantly worrying about their oxygen supply. You're right, Terraforming takes a while. That is why the game is set up to employ the player to research into several Levels of Terraforming. Again, start small and aim big. Terraforming takes an extremely long time (and yes, I do think that even in 500 years it will, and if you seem so optimistic to think we will be gods then, why can't 1,000 people begin the process?). So the initial 1,000 people (again, I repeat: you will get more people during Updates) can begin the process of terraforming and setting up small domed farms.

Oh, and while I'm at it, domes are stupid unless you have engineered magical radiation-opaque materials, as otherwise your people sit around on the surface soaking up grays of radiation and getting cancer. The answer is rock, and it is expressed in hollowed out mesas or underground warrens.

See here, and educate yourself a bit apart from the horsehockey sci-fi you read. You have it partly right regarding the tech required for domes - partly right. Domes are definitely where its at, because they would allow sunlight in, and provide a controlled environment to terraform before advancing to the entire terraforming process of Mars (which is not what this NES is about, its about the stage before that, the controlled terraforming of centralized locations - though perhaps it will go into the terraforming of the entire planet). The underground/caves part you mention is entire plausible, and I did not say that these did not exist in the colonies.

The technology tree is likewise ridiculously limited and stilted toward the "immediately applied" with no steps between development or execution. For some reason, instead of researching say, human physiology, people just sit around trying to think up cooler gyms? Come on!

I fail to see where this comes from. Certain improvements are required for others, by the Level. This means that there are steps between development and execution. You research something, you have to research something else to see effects. And yes, it is about seeing effects, because how else would we play a NES without seeing effects of our actions/orders. The system I made is streamlined and "vague", you are right about it being vague - the reason for this is to make a NES that can advance forward quickly while still remaining true to the concept. I have also said more techs can be added, along with other features. This preNES thread is for this to occur.

You say the concept of gyms or recreation is ridiculous. Read any sensible scientific publication on the colonization of Mars. They always say that recreation, such as swimming pools, will be absolutely necessary for settlers to keep fit and enjoy themselves. The "Gym" improvement is a broad classification for "Fitness", and it means that if settlers are healthy, they will produce more (in game mechanics, this ups your growth rate). Babies being born, people being sent, this whole NES takes place over a long, long period of time.

The system as it exists is also incapable of transitioning to large populated settlements, of conducting meaningful economic growth and development, of emulating diplomacy and discourse between Mars and Earth, of eventually facilitating the rise of independent entities, of modeling warfare, modeling research and discovery, modeling espionage, or generally any of the things that make NESes really exciting. It's niche. Planetary colonization under these rules is basically boiled down to "buy stuff" like the Business NESes seen so far.

It is not incapable of transitioning to large settlements. You just say, "Every 10,000 is worth 10 points," or "Every 100,000" instead of "Every 1,000". Again, the original concept was that the purpose of these colonies was to cut off contact with Earth, but the concept has since changed, and there is actually considerable contact with Earth based on random events per Update, sending of more colonists, political intrigue, and such. In fact, I wrote up Espionage on the original ruleset, and took it out for modification. I had many ideas for Espionage. When it comes to warfare, again, I am a realist and I think warfare on Mars is completely ridiculous - I was designing this NES to be a building NES, where you build up a colony, and then you can also conduct Espionage. Diplomacy is not present? What the hell. Trade routes need to be established between the colonies, espionage pacts can be formed (when I add that section), and the politics between Mars and Earth will be particularly important when it comes to receiving more colonists or other bonuses (different from the bonuses that come with a religious center).

Back to the war issue, if people really want war, we can add it in. Again, that is what this thread is for. I wanted this NES to be more of a fast-paced build NES, along with some espionage/political intrigue, and draw the line there.

What is there to trade? How about manufactured regolith, iron, carbon, aluminum, ethylene/polyethylene, gypsum, calcium carbonate, and lime? How about grown fruits, vegetables, and wheats in the farms?

Your analysis of the rules thus far just show you don't really know what I was aiming for. I wasn't wanting to set up a massively in-depth NES on the colonization of Mars. I was wanting to set up a rather simple system, fast-paced NES in which Updates can take place quickly, growth can be seen, and the players can run a colony in this easy, laid-back fashion. That is the concept. While doing that, I tried to make a system that maintains this philosophy while still staying true to the scientific mechanics of actual Martian colonization. Its a healthy dose of both.

If you want to set up a massively in-depth and full-out NES regarding Mars, then please do. But you fail to see that this NES is designed for a fast-paced experience in which players see results.

Also, about contact with Earth: the entire speed that this game will go at, sort of symbolizes an inherent and constant contact with Earth and dropping off of more materials, etc. That is how the mechanics are arranged. It is a tight system that allows for a building NES, not a geopolitical, war, or otherwise NES.

My preface to this game was the following:

OK NESers, heres the deal. Sekai gives me a bunch of creative writing opportunity, and so far so good. I am liking it. However, on the side, I want to run something less story-based and more pure stat based. So, I have come up with a ruleset for a new NES called: MarsNES. Basically, each player is a colony on Mars, hosted by a certain corporation. I have all the rules, and I actually spent time last night making a (might I say) sweet map. You will build your colony by constructing improvements and trading with other colonies. It is very self-explanatory, simple, requires no story-writing (except for your introduction profile), and will be an easy to Update NES that won't take up much of my time or yours, but will still be extremely fun. I would try to Update every 2 days.

If you want to set up a more in-depth version, and you would like to run it, than please do so. I would play it. But this is much different than what you have in mind.

I believe we can even possibly add things to the rules I have, and still keep it simple, stream-lined and fast-paced.

I wouldn't have suggested this unless I was interested in the subject. I take no offense to your comments, other than that you think I am completely ignorant and that I am a complete idiot. Your conceptual view of the game I proposed is completely at odds as to why I proposed it, and what the game is about. The NES I proposed is intentionally "niche". I do not want to run 2 obsessive detail, story-oriented NESes at once. Sekai is my highly detailed, organized, and story-based NES. It is extremely in-depth.

If you want to arrange a Mars colonization NES that is like that, then please do so, and I will play it. But, and this is the last time I will repeat myself, that is not what my MarsNES originally aimed to do.

 

[Neverwonagame3]

Pretty good arguments, I think.

 

[kkmo]

Indentured servants are not slaves- they would be given their freedom after a certain amount of time.

The nationality of John Walker is British, but his company is largely American-funded.

Oh really? I had no idea what indentured servants were.

Actually, I agree with Symphony D's points about it being unrealistic, and am on the brink of withdrawing because it be.

By the way, Symphony, what did you think of my idea? Did it add to the realism problems, and if so how much?

The backstory right now is intentionally vague and broad, because, and I'll only say this one more time: I wanted you, the actual players of the NES, to come up with the backstory (develop it in this thread). Your idea of a colony is riddled with science-fiction, and no, it is not realistic - you can hear it from me. But I don't care, that is not what I was aiming for anyway. I enjoyed the idea, despite its unrealism. Camp definitely has its place in this genre, and it makes it entirely more enjoyable. Again, your suggestions on the formation of a backstory would be more than welcome.

Oh, as for the map - That is a sweet map Symphony D. My map only shows a small extent of the ice, and stretches the land out a bit in certain areas (though a lot of the ice on your map is underground, but of course would most certainly not be settled). I like your map because it represents what Mars would look like post-terraformed (just give it a blue Mars color scheme, and then you have it). My map was created to be simplistic and to support a simple, fast-paced game - that is all. I just took a surface map of Mars (the one from NASA..... so it actually is quite accurate.....) and changed the contrast, colors, and edited some other items, and made a grid for it. I have an entire archive of topographical, and other maps, a lot of them identical to the one you posted (except flattened, and not attempting to be 3-dimensional). I thought my map was a problem not for the reasons you posted, but because some players would be building on top of buried ice.

 

[Neverwonagame3]

O.K- changed my mind. I'm not going to quit this.

 

[kkmo]

While we are discussing this, I want to run by some ideas, and see what the people who want to play think:

On the fluff front, I was thinking some other goods that could be traded are luxury items. Humanity will definitely have a connection to Earth and a desire for those luxury items, but I think over time Martian colonies would grow to be proud of their colonies, and would want something representative of the colony. I was thinking that maybe certain genetically engineered plants that one colony has managed to create, and wants to sell to others because of their aesthetic quality. Hell, ever heard the music of the planets, too?

As for Espionage, my original rules for espionage included options for players to sabotage each other's Improvement Levels. That means, you can set back a colony significantly by sabotaging, say, its power supply or its living accommodations. This would set back a player's economy (so, effectively, it is covert war). I still do not think that actual warfare has any place in a Martian colonization game, unless we really want to get into Star Trekky type concepts and other such nonsense. This is a build NES, its about watching your baby colony grow to be an adult. I think covert operations are much more fitting.

Then I thought, this would also hurt trade routes, if you sabotaged someone you had a trade route with, because trade routes are arranged that you get a percentage of the sum of two economies. If you hurt their economy, then your trade will suffer. Though, this is sort of a realistic concept in the first place, so maybe it would provide for some interesting intrigue between players. Or, we could say that colonies you have a trade agreement with, you cannot launch espionage operations. I'd like to hear some opinions on this.

 

[Daftpanzer]

Symphony has high standards of realism, but others like myself have lower standards

Personally, overall, I like this idea, although I would also caution against such detailed stats, If you're aiming for an update every two days. In my experience, stats and stat-related issues have a way of multiplying and consuming all available time units! I've found that it doesn't make much difference to the game if some things are abstracted/combined together, while it can save a whole load of time for use in other areas. I usually end up wasting all my time anyway, but perhaps you are better organised

I like the map as it is, although I'm curious as to where the major surface features of Mars are - perhaps the famous big canyon and volcanoes (yes Im too lazy to look up the correct latin spellings ) could be placed/highlighted? I think they would have an impact on the game as physical obstacles if nothing else.

 

[kkmo]

Symphony has high standards of realism, but others like myself are much less demanding

Personally, overall, I like this idea, although I would also caution against such detailed stats, If you're aiming for an update every two days. In my experience, stats and stat-related issues have a way of multiplying and consuming all available time units! I've found that it doesn't make much difference to the game if some things are abstracted/combined together, while it can save a whole load of time for use in other areas. I usually end up wasting all my time anyway, but perhaps you are better organised

I like the map as it is, although I'm curious as to where the major surface features of Mars are - perhaps the famous big canyon and volcanoes (yes Im too lazy to look up the correct latin spellings ) could be placed/highlighted? I think they would have an impact on the game as physical obstacles if nothing else.

All very good ideas. What do you think of the rules how they are? Too broad, too specific, or just right?

As for the map. I admit to not being a huge expert in Martian cartography rolleyes: ), after all, I am not a research team behind the Mars rover. However, I know that there are some canyons and extinct volcanoes (though I think I read an article once about how they think, quite literally, Mars might still have some "fire in it" or something). I think these are actually sort of shown on the map. If you look at the areas of lowlands that are directly adjacent to highlands, that is most-likely a canyon, or deepened, area, whereas the lowlands or highlands next to "normal" middle-lands, are more gradual changes in height. Perhaps the volcanoes as well are located in those areas - this is where my map fails, though, is that I don't really know. The green/yellow/red map scheme on many Martian maps is much more practical.

I hope we can get these map issues sorted out. My main concern is people building ontop of buried ice. But, hey, if this game is science-fiction in any way whatsoever, perhaps building on that buried ice is entirely okay - maybe it would even give way to convenient irrigation systems.

 

[kkmo]

There's also this, which I just made and altered. It is a bit easier to see land features.

Spoiler :

 

[kkmo]

I thought this was funny.
http://www.dailymotion.com/donaldtheduckie/video/x1bp19_mars-and-beyond-clip

Finally, I am beginning to also wonder about a Stanford torus. After all, those look like this:

Spoiler :

And have "10,000 to 140,000" inhabitants. Of course we are talking about Martian colonies, and not ringworlds, but still.

The image above is what I imagine in a Martian colony, except domed, with terraforming happening in sporadic, centralized places, and then as the game goes on perhaps we can open up all of Mars to terraforming efforts (and when our populations grow large enough).

 

[kkmo]

Oh, by the way, another error with Symphony D, and the only reason I am pointing this out is because its crucial:

The technology tree is likewise ridiculously limited and stilted toward the "immediately applied" with no steps between development or execution. For some reason, instead of researching say, human physiology, people just sit around trying to think up cooler gyms? Come on!

Please note, and the rules have said this since the beginning, that you are not "Researching Technology". All of the tech has been researched, as far as you're concerned (again, another flaw in Symphony D's words, because the fact that all tech has been researched symbolizes the advancement of the human race in the past 500 years, and your cooperation with Earth).

That is not a Tech Tree. I specifically called it an Improvement Tree for a good reason. You are constructing additions to your colony. Like SimCity (hey, anyone remember that SimMars game that never came out?). Not researching tech. You already know about Human Physiology.