Master of Magic remake - Hello Worlds of Magic!

[AaronEthridge]

First off, hello everyone! I'm Aaron Ethridge the lead developer for Worlds of Magic. You'll have to forgive my first post being a response to a post about the game I'm working on. (Most of my forum time ends up spent on our forums for obvious reasons, lol.)

LdiCesare, allow me to respond:

First, I opened that post on our forums warning the readers that I was speaking in the broadest possible philosophical terms. The post was about our approach to developing the AI, not HOW we were going to develop it. In light of the fact that I was exploring the philosophy and not the method I feel your calling it “hollow” is unjustified. The idea has to proceed that action, the concept before the code.

I didn't mean to offend anyone with my statement “, but it explains why a lot of AIs fail. The coder who is writing the AI doesn't know how to play the game. That's a problem.” I readily admit that it was presumptuous, as I haven't personally played against all the coders of every game I've ever played. However it's something that seems safe to presume, at least in some cases. I wasn't talking about games like Master of Magic (which I actually mentioned later in my post) or Civilization or MoO or any of the other greats. I was referring to games cranked out in mass that leave you with the feeling that “The programmers must have never even PLAYED this game!!!” If you've never felt that way then you're lucky. Most of us have. In any event it's not place to judge their play abilities (especially having never played against them) and I stand corrected. My real point was that we CAN play and that will help us in our crafting the AI. As that was my point I should have stuck to that. I misspoke and would appreciate it if you would give that the go by and look at what else I had to say.

Codeing an AI is harder than playing a game. No argument there. Making a car is considerably more difficult than driving one. (And yes, I admit that, a bad car design doesn't necessarily mean that the engineers can't drive. Lol.)

Now, I completely disagree that the AI will always react the same way to the same stimulus. That's up to the coder to decide. A player certainly won't react the same way to the same stimulus every time. Still, I believe I understand your point. That being that the TRICK is to make the AI react in a natural way to the information it's collected. If that is your point I agree entirely.

And no, I didn't say anything about that programming of the AI. There are two reasons for that. First, it's too simple to be worth discussion. Second, it's too complicated to discuss in a single post on a forum. Especially one that is opening the topic. Let me give you an example:

How do we plan to program the AI? Well, each turn the AI is going to collect all the available information. That information will then be processed by what is essentially an extremely complex series of IF statements. Based on the results of those IFs it will then set city building orders, move units, explore the map, engage in combat, etc. The entire system will be influenced by a number of factors, such as the AIs “personality” which will cause different AIs to react differently to the same stimulation. Some will expand as quickly as possible, others will build super cities only expanding when prime opportunities present themselves.

Now, the above is true. That is exactly how it works. Does it really tell you anything? Do you want to see the code we're actually using? ( I can't actually show you that for obvious reasons. I'm sure you understand my point.) One of the main reasons I did the post was to answer questions. You didn't ask any. I'm sorry if it strikes you as “hollow” and I'll be glad to fill in parts for you. What do you want to know?

Again guys, sorry my first post is a response. I think I need hardly say that I am VERY busy right now. LdiCesare, I honestly appreciate your post. It gave me an opportunity to jump in here and say a few words about what we're working on. (It's something I'm very excited about.) I invite all of you to come by and let us know if you have a question or suggestion. If you've looked at our forums at all then you know that we are very involved with our own community and take feedback very seriously. Thank you all for the opportunity to respond

 

[Double A]

Well, each turn the AI is going to collect all the available information.

Can that not include stuff the AI couldn't possibly know? Because that would be really cool.

 

[AaronEthridge]

We don't intend to just give the AI information. It will have to collect it just like a player, using scouts, magic, etc. We also don't want to give the AI production bonuses or reduced cost for things. We want the AI to have to play like a player.

 

[GrayingGamer]

Best of luck programming a challenging, scalable, variable, and ultimately fun-to-play-against AI. Seems to be difficult to do =)

 

[Wastelander]

Hello there!

Best of luck programming a challenging, scalable, variable, and ultimately fun-to-play-against AI. Seems to be difficult to do =)

It is, thank you!

Here we go again with some Worlds of Magic updates.

1.- Custom races

"What about a custom faction? You start with a blank slate and a number of points. You spend those points to give the race some benefits. Maybe you take some negative effects to get more points and spend those points on something you really want. The results can be truly awesome. You can put together different races for different play styles. It provides another level of replayability (in a game that already has an almost insane number of possible permutations). Given time you will probably find the one race combination you love above all others."

Of course this model also brings questions. What sprites are we supposed to use in a custom race? Hoy to keep balance? Among others.

More info:

http://forum.wastelands-interactive...etamorphosis-(Custom-Races)&p=51031#post51031

2.- AI

"We plan to go beyond the basic “Make the AI play like we would” and attempt to quantify certain strategic concepts like “Expansionist”. The idea is to boil down certain elements of strategy and use them like legos to build a completely new and unique AI that has a solid play style pieced together out of a number of viable play strategies. Now, that is going to be the real trick. It's relatively easy to hand craft a sorcerer with a certain set of skills to play a certain way. It's another thing entirely to be given a set of skills and strategic “methods” and try to dynamically make something that can actually offer a challenge. However, it's something we're aiming for.

We want the AI in WoM to feel like artificial intelligence not artificial intelligence. It's going to take a lot of work to make it happen, but it's work we're going to love. As with all things WoM related, play testing is going to be a big element. In fact, it's going to matter more with the AI than with any other single element."

http://forum.wastelands-interactive.com/showthread.php?8861-Artificial-Intelligence

3.- Elven units

What do you think about these units?

Settlers
Engineers
Archers
Swordsmen
Druids
Dire Bears
Rangers
Sorcerers
Arcane Archers
Ballista
Wolf Riders
Giant Eagles

Feel free to add suggestions, it's not written in stone.

http://forum.wastelands-interactive.com/showthread.php?8864-Elven-Units&p=51044#post51044

Aaaaand that's all for now! Well, appart from this environmental wallpaper . Thank you, see ya!

large version: http://screen.bitterglory.com/in/13-02/kwfxlvblx.png

 

[ddd123]

all the ai problem would be solved if devs would learn to put a good fun and reliable multiplayer in games

 

[Double A]

Haha no.

 

[Wastelander]

Hi there, ladies and gentlemen!

all the ai problem would be solved if devs would learn to put a good fun and reliable multiplayer in games

Ehhhh... not the best idea, I think. I mean, it's planned to implement a good MP too, but AI must be excellent on it's own.

Here we go again with a little but a very important update at the same time.

1.- The dwarven race

First, the unit list. We are thinking about what to do with boars and wizards, and also there's the possibility to add axe-throwers and dwarvish weapons. Thoughts?

Settlers
Engineers
Axe-Dwarves
Crossbow-Dwarves
Berzerkers
Wizards
Clerics
Axe Lords
Boar Riders
Catapults
Dwarven Defenders

2.- Economy

Some users have been asking about the base of economics in the game, as we have wrongly assumed that everyone should know how it worked on Master of Magic. In case you want more details, here you can find a great explanation. In Aaron words:

Very obviously, this post is going to address how the economy works in Worlds of Magic. Not surprisingly it's going to work much like it did in MoM and other 4X strategy games. However, there are some differences I'd like to highlight.

I'll start with a basic explanation for those who might not be as familiar with 4X games as the rest of us. First, there are a number of resources used both by your Sorcerer and his subjects. In most cases these are: Food, Gold and Mana. (Undead use Negative Energy, but I'll get to that in the differences section of this post.) Now, these resources are all produced by your population. (Or found as treasures on the world map. Or gained by a fortunate random event. Still, they're mainly produced by your population.)

When you build a city it “claims” a certain amount of territory that the citizens will then be able to “work” (this ties into “city influence” which we touched on in a previous post.) The population of the city can be assigned work in a number of areas: Farming, Production, Research (And possibly “Specialist”, but that's a topic for another post.) The area the city has claimed gives you bonuses to some or all of these tasks depending on what type of terrain and features it is filled with. The structures you build within a city can also effect these bonuses. As a result you can build cities that focus on food or military production or focus on magical research.

So far this is all very MoMish. (I know you couldn't assign “researchers” in MoM, but you could in MoO2!) However, unlike in MoM you will be able to store food, just as you can gold or mana. It will be limited by the number of structures that can preserve food throughout your empire. So, the more granaries you have the more food storage you'll have. Why is this an improvement? Because if you go through a short spell of famine you won't have an unit that “deserted due to lack of food.” That is, of course, until your storehouses are empty.

Another difference is the undead and negative energy. They produce and consume it like food. However, we're not sure we're going to allow it to be stored yet. The debate is still up in the air. It could be rationalized that negative energy could be crystallized and stored, just like mana. However, it might be more flavorful if it couldn't be stored. It could be one of the undead's limitations. Also, no terrain is “naturally” suited to the production of negative energy. It has to be corrupted before it can be used. (Obviously, all terrain on the shadow plane is corrupted at the start of the game.) Nor is any terrain type more suited to the production of negative energy. So, no place on the world map is either great or terrible for an undead city (as long as it's surrounded by land and not the sea.) All places are equally suited to the production of dark energy once the land is corrupted.

Undead also have no need of gold, although a sorcerer using undead will need it. Very few heroes work for the “good cause.” They want to be paid. This means using the undead is going to require you to get gold from other sources. You'll just capture another race's city and make them pay taxes you say! Well, good luck with that! The other races hate the undead and would generally rather die than serve them. Now, there will be ways for a sorcerer using undead to get gold, he just needs to plan ahead.

ttp://forum.wastelands-interactive.com/showthread.php?8875-The-Global-Economy&p=51109#post51109

And that's all. I also want to say that from now on I maybe won't be able to do weekly updates as I have been doing. Soon we will announce really big news, and the team is going to be busier than ever (myself included). Of course I will try to take a look from time to time, but you are invited to take part in our forums. Don't forget to stay tuned . Thanks a million, guys.

Official Facebook Worlds of Magic fansite
Game forum

 

[Double A]

Settlers and engineers? If the undead have fancy names for their works, why not everyone but humans (since humanity is always boring in fantasy)? And if you're going with standard fantasy dwarves, one of those units just has to be miners.

 

[ddd123]

Ehhhh... not the best idea, I think. I mean, it's planned to implement a good MP too, but AI must be excellent on it's own.

well its the common loophole of strategy games imo
bad/casual players dont need such a ai cause they will find challenge anyway
expert/hardcore gamers cannot find in ai a real challenge, and devs will just make ai cheat like in every other game

im not saying this is a huge drama, i know it works this way but a better focus on online playing would make not necessary to spend a lot of money on developing super complicated ai

First, the unit list. We are thinking about what to do with boars and wizards, and also there's the possibility to add axe-throwers and dwarvish weapons. Thoughts?

definitely yes, i like more tactical choices than the usual melee archer mage

 

[LDiCesare]

im not saying this is a huge drama, i know it works this way but a better focus on online playing would make not necessary to spend a lot of money on developing super complicated ai

Not at all. Playing online requires some commitment, availability of players over lengths of time, making sure you can play at the same time with others etc. so it is no replacement for single player games.
The good point of MP is that players develop strategies, and when the game has MP, then strats are found earlier (when testing MP), which means the ai can be benefit from it and be improved.

 

[ddd123]

Not at all. Playing online requires some commitment, availability of players over lengths of time, making sure you can play at the same time with others etc. so it is no replacement for single player games..

this is true for the average strategy games
lets talk about civ, it was a HUGE pain in the ass to play online, hard to find ppl, multiplayer structure terribad, client server absent, infinite lag etc etc

ofc in these conditions you are right

but take any other online game working (wow, lol, diablo and many others b4 and after ) you click on "play" and play

if strategy games were that easy to play no one would think about the problems

and tbh ai will never be on par with human strategy
in the time a human develop a strategy, add the time devs learn it, add the time devs put that in the code, add the testing, add the bugs, and when that ai strategy is working humans have already find 2 counters

 

[LDiCesare]

but take any other online game working (wow, lol, diablo and many others b4 and after ) you click on "play" and play

if strategy games were that easy to play no one would think about the problems

I simply disagree. I've played chess online and against ai. When I want a quick chess game, I'd rather play the computer because it launches now and I can better control the time spent playing for instance.

 

[ddd123]

its nonsense
the chess server where i play takes 2 seconds to connect
and whatever kind of game i seek it takes not more than 2 seconds to find it and start the game

 

[LDiCesare]

its nonsense
the chess server where i play takes 2 seconds to connect
and whatever kind of game i seek it takes not more than 2 seconds to find it and start the game

No. Depending on your country, you may not find people connected ready to play a game with your elo and the duration that you like as readily as you would find an ai at the time you want to play. MP is an interesting thing, but single player is simply mandatory. You can stop playing and go eating without anyone being bothered for instance, and don't have to suffer from others doing exactly that.
You may not understand it, but it's not nonsense. Some people prefer single player games.

 

[doomtrader]

Talking about the multiplayer.

The ultimate goal for us is to make the server handled system, so you can play your turn, upload it, and the player on the other side of the globe can play his turn.

Of course very often this means one turn a day, but it shouldn't be a problem to play 10 games simultaneously.

 

[LDiCesare]

Best way for turn based MP would be simultaneous turns (we go). That's much faster than each player playing his moves and then the next player making his own, but Civ MP didn't do it justice and it changes gameplay quite a lot.

 

[Double A]

I'm terrible at fighting humans and would never buy a strategy game for the multiplayer alone. I'm sure there are plenty of others like me. I still appreciate it when the AI doesn't have to cheat to present a challenge to me.

 

[ddd123]

I'm terrible at fighting humans

its just prejudice
with a good online system you would face bad humans that you couldnt tell from ais
thats how good system works, matching pplk with similar skill players

 

[Wastelander]

Hi everybody, how are you doing? Tin man is back!

Let's go with the weekly/fortnightly/somewhat-ly updates .

1.- We've had an interview with the friends of Tacticular Cancer, so as you may pressume, there are lots and lots of info. I hope it is of your interest.

http://www.tacticularcancer.com/content.php?id=4028

2.- We have a brand new and exciting official website for Worlds of Magic. It's still on development, but I'm happy to introduce the new Womsite:

http://myworldsofmagic.com/

(clapclapclapclap and so on)

3.- As you can see, WoMsite is in English, Spanish and Polish at the moment. We would be happy to feature more languages, so if you want to give us a hand and translate it to another language (it won't be more than 600 words) please tell us .

About the threads, we have had little time to spent writing (writing post at least, lol). So, now the time is short and big things are coming, we are asking you to revise much of the information we have released this time ago, as we want to prepare a very good FAQ based en your questions:

http://forum.wastelands-interactive.com/showthread.php?8891-More-Questions&p=51267#post51267

I warn you, if your question is going to be "when are you going to release actual gameplay screenshots" save your question. VERY, VERY SOON . See ya!