Master of Myrror Fantasy Mod 2.0

Howdy

I d/l'd the main file and the patch. I installed the Main File in the scenario folder for Conquests, and all is well there. However, I copied the patched .bic and the MoM folder to the Scenario folder and I am still being told that I am playing ver. 1.0. Where did I screw up?

Thanks!

Jonathan
 
I was playing a chaos mage, and noticed that after essence of chaos is built that I have lots of cits so I'm sitting there trying to rush things with them... What if all offensive Chaos units after maybe the first two took a citizen to build..., and was lowered in cost by 15 shields to make up for it. Wonder if it would work...comments? I did notice that the AI tends to build essence of chaos rather quick, so the AI might not have any problem...?
 
Meisier, you forget that pop-rushing costs happiness. It is its own limiting factor. After a while you'll find you can't rush without having anarchy everywhere.

I've been playing for a while now, and two things I've noticed...

There isn't any big increase in power between units of different levels. The highest defence is 8, on a series (dwarfs) that starts at 5. Even if you are a few techs in teh lead, your units aren't really much better than the enemy.

Chaos bombard units are so powerful, and their attack factors slightly better, that I wonder if they don't have an in-built advantage. As chaos, I don't lose except when fighting all the comps at the same time. Against chaos, the best I can do is fight a very slow withdrawal campaign while trying to sue for peace.
 
Well, I guess I could just create a pop rush town :)

Yea.. tech advances doesn't matter as much as far as units are concerned. compared to normal The buildings that you can build matter more...

What I have noticed is that the extra hitpoints many units receive is undercosted in the last half of the game. - because the extra hitpoint is a multiplier with the increasing power...

Because chaos has such week defense anybody’s artillery works well against them. Some units work very well against them like the gnoll series. Of course the best solution when fighting anybody is to wait till they are involved with someone else - and then present only "strong" targets so that they continue to attack the other AI while you move in... (The AI seems unable to define FAT targets (a few defenders and lots of attacking units) just weak (most likely to lose the first battle). At emperor level (where I normally play) I find that I have the best successes with that tactic - artillery never hurts though.
 
I've noticed those things too, rhialto. Advanced units don't have stats much better than basic units, and they're quite a lot more expensive. Compare stats and prices in MOM to regular civ. The 1.2.1 Acolyte for 12 shields is better than the 1.2.1 Spearman for 20. But the Griffin is 8.3.3 with an extra hp for 120 shields, and the Modern Armor is also 120 shields with 24.16.3 stats. In regular civ, units get lots better and keep their prices low, so that there's a real benefit to keeping your units up-to-date. In MOM, you can fight reasonably well with obsolete units.

Chaos mages are overpowered in the hands of human player. It's that super artillery and their their numerous, powerful armies. Artillery and armies are two things that the AI doesn't use. So for a human, Chaos is amazing, but they seem to be average at best in the hands of an AI. Their units are pretty good, but corruption and unit support brings them down. IMO, Nature mages are the AIs to watch out for. For a good description of what makes a strong AI, look at http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=92917
 
Rhialto,

I haven't played this mod yet (still trying to download), but there may be a problem with 'translating' MoM into CivIII. In MoM, you often went for powerful units over cost effective, because there was a limit to 9 units in a square, and units with lots of shields could take down weaker units without being hurt. It doesn't work that way in Civ III.
 
Any civ is overpowered in human hands! :D

I agree that the AI seems to do best with Nature Mages. With them being Agr,that's perhaps not so surprising.

The slow increase of units stats is, as I understand it deliberate. Still, might need tweaking.
 
I don't mind the slow increase as such, but the way the prices go up, I can't help wondering if advanced civs are actaully shooting themselves in the foor by chasing tech. If the choice is between 3 weak units or 2 marginally stronger units, the lower tech civ can oftern win a war of attrition.

Consider teh guy who is maxed out techwise will be fighting with 8-4 units (the nearest thing this mod has to a tank). A guy who is only halfway up the tech tree (ie musketeer types) will be fighting with 4-2 units, and those will be half the cost. A war of attrition is quite winnable by the low tech side.

Basically, the tech tree race almost isnt worth fighting.
 
Unit support costs are trivial in civ3, as it is a gold economy not a production economy. In any case, the opportunity cost is in science, which isn't as valuable as in the vanilla game anyway.

As for the loss ratio. On the attack, you stand a 50:50 chance. On the defence, a 20:80 chance. However, if you defend on a mountain, that rises to 33:67. The loss ratio will be 7:13 assuming equal attack opportunities and no terrain effects. Take production costs into account and attrition becomes a winning strategy - his 7 units cost him as much as 14 of yours would cost!

Assuming you stack (reasonable given superior numbers), you can expect a counterattack opportunity, and the aggregate of the above ratios will be in your favour once you take production cost into account. Take an intelligent use of terrain also, and teh odds fall heavily in your favour.
 
On the attack, you at the very best, stand a 45% chance, due to the minimal terrain bonus, assuming 4HP a side. Defending, you have a 22% chance defending fortified on a mountain (again 4HP a side). Even a metropolis on a hill with a Dwarven Fortress only gives you a 35% chance at 4HP each. Defense on open terrain is suicide at 4%, as is attacking a fortified defender in a metropolis at 12% (7% if on hill with Dwarven Fortress).

Faced with those numbers, I'd fairly pessimistic about killing more than ½ unit for each I lose even against the AI.
 
The Last Conformist said:
Any civ is overpowered in human hands! :D

True, of course, but I still say this is especially true for chaos, since they have several strengths in areas that ONLY the human player uses: Armies and Artillery. Oh yeah, don't forget their elite spies, those are pretty crazy when everyone else has regulars. I had about a 90% success rate doing cheapo "immediate" tech steals. That's practically free tech.

The Last Conformist said:
I don't think that a 4.2.1 unit is a better buy than a twice as expensive 8.4.1; the loss ratio is likely to be well over two-one, and you'll pay more unit support.

The thing is, the 8.4.1 unit also cost you about an entire era worth of research. With all that money, you could have rush-bought and supported a huge number of the 4.2.1 units. If you've got units that bombard or retreat, you can get very good kill-ratios even with obsolete units. These types have the ability to live even when fighting at a disadvantage, so for them, quantity really equals quality.

I think the city improvements also don't get much better at higher techs. In regular civ, when you get to the industrial era, you get factories and powerplants which each give 50% bonuses to production, and you get railroads. In MOM, you get monoliths and obelisks, which each give 25% bonuses, and no railroads. Also, the advanced improvements like Sage's Guild and Sewers cost more to construct than their civ counterparts.

It just seems like there is almost no way to get a true advantage in combat (or to be totally outclassed). If there's a tech difference, the units barely differ in power per shield. And if you have more strategic resources than your enemy, that doesn't help that much either. Those units are different, but not really much better than the default units.

All that might be what Drift was going for, but to me, it's cool when falling behind in tech or being short of resources is truely a dire situation. I'm not saying these are big problems, I criticize because I love. If this wasn't a great mod, I'd stop playing and stop thinking about all these little details.
 
Well, lacking a race resource is supposed not to be a major disadvantage. They're so rare it wouldn't work any other way.

The advantages of technological might be too small, but I must say that in my experience, fighting from a technological disadvantage does hurt. Perhaps less than in C3C Epic, but very noticeably.
 
Well, I finished my game as Freya. I played on Demigod and got the cultural win with 75000 culture on turn 280 :king:. Even though it was a cultural win, I did a lot of fighting, first to get territory to build many cities to build culture, and then to damage other civs to slow down their culture and tech. I didn't want anyone to transcend or build death clouds before I won.

The strength of the nature is mages easy to see, since both the expansionist and agricultural traits really paid off in the early expansion. The Agri trait is pretty amazing: every town starts with 3 food in its center tile (don't have to be on a river), you start with the tech for granaries, and build them at half cost. Irrigating without water is nice, too. I had as many cities as the nearby death mages when the expansion phase was done :D.

After expanding and building nature shrines and wizards guilds in my cities, I went to war against my neighbor, Rjak. I had started with goblins in my territory, so the fight was my catapults and goblin spearmen against his shadowmen and bow skinks. I had a few half-gnolls and treants, too, but the goblins are a much cheaper way to raise an army. He had tons of shadowmen, so we fought at the border and I lost some goblins before I could start moving on his cities.

Then Mordja attacked from my north (shadowmen and necromancers) and I had to cancel my war on Rjak to fight them off. My fast defenders were able to get to the threatened city and prevent its capture. Again, I fought at the border for a while before advancing. I had earth elementals and centaurs and two centaur armies before I finally finished off the two death mages :ninja:. Side note: I love the names of Freya's MGLs, they sound so non-aggressive. My armies were lead by Greenleaf and Waylish. Later, I got Elicia and Misty. Oooh, scary.

Now I owned my continent and built culture in my new cities. But to win, I would still have to build up myself and tear down others. Tlaloc was the world leader, he had settled a large empire, and was making it bigger by conquering Ariel. Earth elementals and gnoll rangers against champions and sorcerors is a bad deal for the life mage. Tlaloc's war meant that his rearguard cities were lightly defended when I invaded (giant turtles from the lizardmen are great transports). I captured several major cities and his capital before calling peace. Tlaloc was now just another civ and no longer the world leader. :spank:

Next, I hit Oberic to reduce his culture. I had to fight throught white riders and wizards, but he didn't have too many. The only new unit I had added to my army was goblin wolfriders. Those are a good unit: stats of a centaur, but 40 shields compared to 70. They're not very powerful, but they're cheap and can retreat so attacking with them is a very small risk. Also, now that my empire was large and non-contiguous, I started using pterodactyls. They're convenient for ferrying new troops to the front, and I also had a rapid reaction force. Five pterocactyls and five units stationed in one city could reach any city in my empire in one turn. That was all the defense I needed for my home continent and every city could be empty.

I was building culture in every captured city by cash-rushing and using civil engineers :hammer:. In order of best culture per shield, the improvements rank: wizards guild, dark altar, nature shrine, sages guild, halls of the dead, temple. As a scientific civ, that's the order I built them in. Interesting note: Vlad is the culture king, the only wizard to be scientific and religious. He didn't do too well in my current game, though.

With Oberic and Tlaloc knocked down, Lo-Pan was now my top competitor. He'd been totally unmolested on the island he shared with Raven, and now he took the tech lead by a wide margin. He made lots of money selling the tech and was going nuts with his spies. He sabotaged production of my wonders and temples. He stole my military plans. I got reports that he did them successfully, but I don't know how many things he did undetected. He tried propaganda at least five times but never succeeded (yay for cultural advantage!). He was probably doing this to other civs as well, he started capturing cities that had changed hands several times on the big continent at an amazing rate. Some of those might have been propaganda, but some of it was his maulers and wyvern riders.

So I had to take the fight to him. He had maulers, wyverns, and dwarven thunderers. I had trebuchets and armies of earth elementals and glade riders. Yikes, with those chaos and dwarf units, this is one of the only times a tech and resource disadvantage makes a big difference. When I invaded his homeland cities, I mainly bombarded and attacked with my armies (8 defense + extra hp + dwarven fortress + metropolis bonus = huge defense) so it could take several turns to defeat important cities. The battle at his capital was epic. It must have lasted about 12 turns, I lost armies, I created leaders, I killed about 15 thunderers, and he pop-rushed it from about size 15 down to 7. Finally, I had a good round of bombardment when he had too few defenders and my armies marched into Shen-khi. With Lo-Pan essentially finished, I was clearly the dominant civ. I won by culture a few turns later.

That was a very fun game. Culture victories are cool when you have to go out and tear down your top competitors instead of sitting back and building. I was very impressed by the nature mages' awesome expansion :thumbsup: , but their units are fairly mediocre :thumbdown:, except for the flying transports which make your army very mobile. Next up, I'll try to win on deity by transcending as Ariel.
 
I've not been through the whole game yet,
but I've played enough to find it awesome.

I play Vlad, and ha to scale back to monarch in order to
successfully start an empire. (I lost twice to an overgrown Tlaloc, on different maps.)

There is one thing I think should be corrected :
There are too many nodes. I never had any great difficulties getting each kind.

Has the issue already been addressed (I did not read the thread through)

Bravo and keep doing a good job

Old_Lion
 
Heh, TLC, you seem to be an expert on how MOM is supposed to play ;). Actually, I take back some of the stuff I said about no big benefits to researching a few posts back. Archangels are impressive units, and Obelisks and Chaos forges are good production boosters.

But Old_Lion has a point, the only time I've felt the lack of a node is when I wanted to build Channel Energy early on in my current game. That improvent is availible from the beginning of the game but requires a life node. I only had to walke a short way to capture an enemy city that had a life node. Improvements that require a node in the city radius are cool, but they're kinda pointless as a strategic resource since they're so common.
 
nullspace said:
Heh, TLC, you seem to be an expert on how MOM is supposed to play ;). Improvements that require a node in the city radius are cool, but they're kinda pointless as a strategic resource since they're so common.

That's exactly my point.
If you always have all the needed nodes, they no longer are strategic ! :crazyeye:

I think I read somewhere you could change the rarity of strategic ressources,
but I have no clue on how you'd do that. any idea ? :confused:

I think another improvement, still regarding nodes, could be :
you see your own alignment nodes from the start,
but have to wait a while before seeing the others
(something like level IV spells of each kind)
Is it possible ?
is it a good idea ?
 
You can make nodes less common by opening the MoM.biq, chosing Edit -> Resources, and lower the "appearance ratio" for them.

Drift explained his reasoning for the plentitude of nodes in the earlier pages of this thread, and in the previous thread.
 
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