Master of Myrror Fantasy Mod 2.0
- Thread starter Drift
- Start date
Drift
It's a boy!
@BradRinWi
Well of Souls is the 'shrine' of death mages.
Well of Souls is the 'shrine' of death mages.
LeeT911
Eloquent Silence
Just a quick question. I noticed that Essence of Death requires Death Node but Essence of Chaos has no resource requirement. Is that intentional?
Drift
It's a boy!
@LeeT911
No it isn't. Thanks for noting that, more stuff for next patch.
No it isn't. Thanks for noting that, more stuff for next patch.
The Omega
Completely Insane
So far, I've got two complaints:
1. Wizards and White Wizards should upgrade to something. I've got over 100 white wizards with nothing to do, just be used as decoys.
2. Death Clouds seem unusaully weak for nuclear weapons. No matter how many I use, there alway seem to be more survivors than normally when I use nuclear weapons.
1. Wizards and White Wizards should upgrade to something. I've got over 100 white wizards with nothing to do, just be used as decoys.
2. Death Clouds seem unusaully weak for nuclear weapons. No matter how many I use, there alway seem to be more survivors than normally when I use nuclear weapons.
Drift
It's a boy!
@The Omega
Wizards are highest tier of life mage defenders. Do you mean life mages need a new, even stronger defender class? I'm not at my own computer right now so I can't check the exact numbers, but Wizards are already among the strongest defenders of the game.
Death Clouds are set to function as ICBM's and their strength can't be altered in any way, meaning that they are just as strong as epic game ICBM's. So I guess it's just in your head.
Wizards are highest tier of life mage defenders. Do you mean life mages need a new, even stronger defender class? I'm not at my own computer right now so I can't check the exact numbers, but Wizards are already among the strongest defenders of the game.
Death Clouds are set to function as ICBM's and their strength can't be altered in any way, meaning that they are just as strong as epic game ICBM's. So I guess it's just in your head.
The Omega
Completely Insane
1. If wizards and white wizards are some of the best defenders of the game, then defenders really need to be improved! Late in teh game, most units attacks are over 10, and white wizards defense is only 8! Wizards defense is only 7! Dwarves fo up to 9, but i wasn't lucky enough to get dwarves in my game, so my best defense were death clouds (any ship that got near me was nuked immeadiantly)Drift said:@The Omega
Wizards are highest tier of life mage defenders. Do you mean life mages need a new, even stronger defender class? I'm not at my own computer right now so I can't check the exact numbers, but Wizards are already among the strongest defenders of the game.
Death Clouds are set to function as ICBM's and their strength can't be altered in any way, meaning that they are just as strong as epic game ICBM's. So I guess it's just in your head.
2. Eh, it probably is all just in my head. the AI was building so many defenders, it took 2-3 nukes to kill them all.
Drift
It's a boy!
@The Omega
Defenders get bonuses on basically every terrain. If the defenders become notably stronger, attacking becomes frustrating as you bang your head on defenders with defense values that nearly match your offense. I prefer a more offense orientated game balance where attacking is rewarded and encouraged.
We can tweak the defender stats, but they are meant to be able to hold and delay the enemy, not defeat it on their own. I feel they are correct or at least close to correct at the moment.
Defenders get bonuses on basically every terrain. If the defenders become notably stronger, attacking becomes frustrating as you bang your head on defenders with defense values that nearly match your offense. I prefer a more offense orientated game balance where attacking is rewarded and encouraged.
We can tweak the defender stats, but they are meant to be able to hold and delay the enemy, not defeat it on their own. I feel they are correct or at least close to correct at the moment.
The Omega
Completely Insane
Hmmm.....Okay, when you think about it that way, it makes sense.Drift said:
Disenfrancised
Beep Beep
@ Drift
Turn length should be how fast you think your mages do things; building cities, fighting wars etc. Never having played the orginal game I've got no clue.
The constant turn length fits this mod starting over from some refugees, i.e alpha centurai building with known goals rather than civilisation meandering up from prehistory.
Perosnally I'd say 5-6 years per turn so that you can start on a big cultural drive on turn 300 or so and still have some bonus from doubling before the end of the game. But thats just a shot in the dark
Turn length should be how fast you think your mages do things; building cities, fighting wars etc. Never having played the orginal game I've got no clue.
The constant turn length fits this mod starting over from some refugees, i.e alpha centurai building with known goals rather than civilisation meandering up from prehistory.
Perosnally I'd say 5-6 years per turn so that you can start on a big cultural drive on turn 300 or so and still have some bonus from doubling before the end of the game. But thats just a shot in the dark
LeeT911
Eloquent Silence
Yes, if you make it 1 year per turn, then the 1000 year doubling will never occur, making pretty much impossible to get a cultural victory. Although perhaps a cultural victory isn't really what's intended for this mod.
As to the offense/defense issue, I think it's fine that the late offensive units have more power than the late defensive units. It's that way in the original game anyway. Modern Armour is attack 24, but Mech Infantry is defense 18. So the MI is meat out in the open, but if it's fortified in a size 24 metropolis on hill, good luck taking it out without bombardment...
Don't know about the actual balance in MoM though, since all my games so far have been over before the end of the second era.
As to the offense/defense issue, I think it's fine that the late offensive units have more power than the late defensive units. It's that way in the original game anyway. Modern Armour is attack 24, but Mech Infantry is defense 18. So the MI is meat out in the open, but if it's fortified in a size 24 metropolis on hill, good luck taking it out without bombardment...
Don't know about the actual balance in MoM though, since all my games so far have been over before the end of the second era.
clearbeard
King
RE: Culture doubling/years per turn
One other related aspect is the tourist attraction flag, which lets wonders/sm wonders generate cash after 1000 years. Not a wholly applicable concept to MoM, but same mechanism. As to how long, I've modded my game to a flat 10 years/turn, which seems to work out okay. I never play with the cultural victory condition on, though (it just seems anticlimactic to me). I wouldn't go lower than 5 years, which puts the double point 200 turns after construction , as my games tend to only last 250-350 turns before casting the Spell of Mastery.
RE: Defender stats
They work quite well as they are, imo. Looking at the base game, for example, mech infantry defends at 18, modern armor attacks at 24, so a 4:3 attack:defense ratio is the designers' target. Defense 8 units should be able to handle anything up to 10-12 attack or higher, in favorable terrain (and high attack units slaughter them unfortified in the open, as it should be.
RE: Nukes
I think the issue with units surviving comes from more and larger HP bonuses than in the base game. I've never figured out exactly how it works, but it SEEMS that nukes deal 2-4 damage to all units in the radius (or a %, like 40-80%, I'm not sure), maybe more in the center square and/or less in the outer ring. That would kill basically every C3C unit in 2 hits, and a good number on hit 1, while especially the trolls could survive 3 in MoM. Still works okay for me, as whenever I go to nuke an opponent, I usually have 50-100 missiles to play with.
I hate nuking, though (usually build that many as a STRONG deterrent to the AI) and never devoted the brain power to nailing down the scheme.
RE: Regicide upgradable kings
One thing I'm twiddling with now, and will be playtesting soon to see if it works, is giving "king" units the "leader" flag instead of "king", and building games as a scenario, where each faction starts out with a level 1 leader (so they can't build more), who can be upgraded if he survives. The AI still would have no clue, but it would alleviate the necessity of using Regicide to get the idea. If it works, I'll look into adding it on to a future release of MoM for you, Drift. I've already worked out decent balance stats and graphic design for the 4 "races", and with a singularly unique unit, balance isn't as big an issue anyway, just adds a little flavor (as long as it's not a 1000 attack God or anything!). I'll let you all know how it works out.
That's about all my backlogged comments from pre-holiday civ-withdrawal. One general question: what's the deal with having to manually select ALL stealth attack targets? Shift-click etc doesn't work on that box. Anyone have a quicker method of selecting the whole list?
One other related aspect is the tourist attraction flag, which lets wonders/sm wonders generate cash after 1000 years. Not a wholly applicable concept to MoM, but same mechanism. As to how long, I've modded my game to a flat 10 years/turn, which seems to work out okay. I never play with the cultural victory condition on, though (it just seems anticlimactic to me). I wouldn't go lower than 5 years, which puts the double point 200 turns after construction , as my games tend to only last 250-350 turns before casting the Spell of Mastery.
RE: Defender stats
They work quite well as they are, imo. Looking at the base game, for example, mech infantry defends at 18, modern armor attacks at 24, so a 4:3 attack:defense ratio is the designers' target. Defense 8 units should be able to handle anything up to 10-12 attack or higher, in favorable terrain (and high attack units slaughter them unfortified in the open, as it should be
.RE: Nukes
I think the issue with units surviving comes from more and larger HP bonuses than in the base game. I've never figured out exactly how it works, but it SEEMS that nukes deal 2-4 damage to all units in the radius (or a %, like 40-80%, I'm not sure), maybe more in the center square and/or less in the outer ring. That would kill basically every C3C unit in 2 hits, and a good number on hit 1, while especially the trolls could survive 3 in MoM. Still works okay for me, as whenever I go to nuke an opponent, I usually have 50-100 missiles to play with.
I hate nuking, though (usually build that many as a STRONG deterrent to the AI) and never devoted the brain power to nailing down the scheme.RE: Regicide upgradable kings
One thing I'm twiddling with now, and will be playtesting soon to see if it works, is giving "king" units the "leader" flag instead of "king", and building games as a scenario, where each faction starts out with a level 1 leader (so they can't build more), who can be upgraded if he survives. The AI still would have no clue, but it would alleviate the necessity of using Regicide to get the idea. If it works, I'll look into adding it on to a future release of MoM for you, Drift. I've already worked out decent balance stats and graphic design for the 4 "races", and with a singularly unique unit, balance isn't as big an issue anyway, just adds a little flavor (as long as it's not a 1000 attack God or anything!). I'll let you all know how it works out.
That's about all my backlogged comments from pre-holiday civ-withdrawal. One general question: what's the deal with having to manually select ALL stealth attack targets? Shift-click etc doesn't work on that box. Anyone have a quicker method of selecting the whole list?
clearbeard
King
I have had the end-of-tech-tree game freeze once also. Reloading the game at the end of the prior turn and selecting "good lets play the game" at the era splash screen avoided the problem. I have no clue why it happens, other than perhaps the game expects you to end in the fourth era. If so, adding a tech to era 4 like "the last tech" and having nothing buildable from it should eliminate the problem, infrequent as it is.
re death shrines Duh...LOL my bad
umm just looked at ships
life 2 /death 2 /nature 2 give fairly equal ships...
life 2 however seems to give chaos mages a VERY very big edge..
wondered 1 was it supposed to be under Chaos 2?
and 2 .. why the huge navel advantage..
all throught.
umm just looked at ships
life 2 /death 2 /nature 2 give fairly equal ships...
life 2 however seems to give chaos mages a VERY very big edge..
wondered 1 was it supposed to be under Chaos 2?
and 2 .. why the huge navel advantage..
all throught.
clearbeard
King
@BradWinRi
How so? The war galleys are slower than life, and only have a 2 bombard. It's useful, but not overpowered in my games. The more deadly one IMO is the nature ship, with its 4 defense, giving them rather unhasseled early game passage, both against other players and the kraken! It's defense, so not overbalanced, just the most powerful of the set (to my style of playing anyway).
How so? The war galleys are slower than life, and only have a 2 bombard. It's useful, but not overpowered in my games. The more deadly one IMO is the nature ship, with its 4 defense, giving them rather unhasseled early game passage, both against other players and the kraken! It's defense, so not overbalanced, just the most powerful of the set (to my style of playing anyway).
Drift
It's a boy!
Thanks for the suggestions regarding cultural victory and turn/year progression. I think I'll start with 10 years a turn.
Nice to hear my sentiments about defenders are shared by most of you.
I'll have to do something about the tech screen crash. One option would be to move all techs one era forward. We'll see.
I don't think the War Galley is a problem. Sea Serpent however was. I'm not sure what my reasoning was there, don't think I meant to have those stats. I brought it down a peg making its defense 2 and price 30. Nature isn't meant to be dominant at seas. Thanks clearbeard.
I could try to reconsider the ship placement in tech tree. The system I use has changed during development and the current one is a mixture of old and new. Some ships are located in life branch even though they aren't owned by life mages. Then again, many ships are located in their faction's own branch (nature mages & death mages) It's a little confusing and even I have a little hard time getting a grip on the subject right now and I think it shows. I'll think about it and get back to it later.
@clearbeard
Hitpoints and nukes is an interesting point. Could well be the reason for seemingly underpowered nukes. (I wouldn't know, I don't like nukes and the only time I've casted one in MoM is when I've been testing the attack animation).
It'll be interesting to see how the leader experiment goes. Nice to hear you like the mod enough to fiddle your own additions to it. If it plays ok, I don't see any reason why it couldn't be included as an alternative playing method.
I don't know of a solution to the stealth attack problem either. It's annoying.
In other news, christmas left me a little out of touch with the mod. I've done pretty much nothing regarding development, but I think I'm getting back in to the mood. Aaglo keeps hammering new units so the four new race resources are right on track. I'll just need to finish some other stuff like finally completing our honeymoon video editing (BTW, ~12 hours of minidv-tapes eats an INSANE amount of harddrive space)
Nice to hear my sentiments about defenders are shared by most of you.
I'll have to do something about the tech screen crash. One option would be to move all techs one era forward. We'll see.
I don't think the War Galley is a problem. Sea Serpent however was. I'm not sure what my reasoning was there, don't think I meant to have those stats. I brought it down a peg making its defense 2 and price 30. Nature isn't meant to be dominant at seas. Thanks clearbeard.
I could try to reconsider the ship placement in tech tree. The system I use has changed during development and the current one is a mixture of old and new. Some ships are located in life branch even though they aren't owned by life mages. Then again, many ships are located in their faction's own branch (nature mages & death mages) It's a little confusing and even I have a little hard time getting a grip on the subject right now and I think it shows. I'll think about it and get back to it later.
@clearbeard
Hitpoints and nukes is an interesting point. Could well be the reason for seemingly underpowered nukes. (I wouldn't know, I don't like nukes and the only time I've casted one in MoM is when I've been testing the attack animation).
It'll be interesting to see how the leader experiment goes. Nice to hear you like the mod enough to fiddle your own additions to it. If it plays ok, I don't see any reason why it couldn't be included as an alternative playing method.
I don't know of a solution to the stealth attack problem either. It's annoying.
In other news, christmas left me a little out of touch with the mod. I've done pretty much nothing regarding development, but I think I'm getting back in to the mood. Aaglo keeps hammering new units so the four new race resources are right on track. I'll just need to finish some other stuff like finally completing our honeymoon video editing (BTW, ~12 hours of minidv-tapes eats an INSANE amount of harddrive space)
"I could try to reconsider the ship placement in tech tree. The system I use has changed during development and the current one is a mixture of old and new. Some ships are located in life branch even though they aren't owned by life mages. Then again, many ships are located in their faction's own branch (nature mages & death mages) It's a little confusing and even I have a little hard time getting a grip on the subject right now and I think it shows. I'll think about it and get back to it later."
this could be part of what in am encountering...
and is causing me some confusion..
clearbeard i like the up gradable leader idea.. and would be happy to help playtest it.. I wish the AI could handle upgradable kings...
but then again i also wish you could script in the Civ3 editor...
(hopefully in 4 you will be able to.)
ohh any word or thoughts on the ultimate fate of monastaries??
first they were in then out then possibly made differnt..
just curious
btw i Do Agree with the concept of Defenders not being a means to winning a battle but an effective deterent /Delaying force.. while you move offensive units into play..
now if only i could convince the AI to swing at my Ghost and leave my Vampires alone.
this could be part of what in am encountering...
and is causing me some confusion..
clearbeard i like the up gradable leader idea.. and would be happy to help playtest it.. I wish the AI could handle upgradable kings...
but then again i also wish you could script in the Civ3 editor...
(hopefully in 4 you will be able to.)
ohh any word or thoughts on the ultimate fate of monastaries??
first they were in then out then possibly made differnt..
just curious
btw i Do Agree with the concept of Defenders not being a means to winning a battle but an effective deterent /Delaying force.. while you move offensive units into play..
now if only i could convince the AI to swing at my Ghost and leave my Vampires alone.
Drift
It's a boy!
@BradRinWi
I haven't thought of anything for the monasteries yet. I'll get to it, eventually.
Thanks for reminding me.
Do you mean that when Ghosts and Vampires are in a same stack, Vampires are the ones that defend? How's that possible? Ghosts have defense of 5 and Vampires 4.
I haven't thought of anything for the monasteries yet. I'll get to it, eventually.
Thanks for reminding me.Do you mean that when Ghosts and Vampires are in a same stack, Vampires are the ones that defend? How's that possible? Ghosts have defense of 5 and Vampires 4.
Yoda Power
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If the Vampires have more hitpoints they usually defend instead a Ghost, because the difference between 4 and 5 is not as big as the difference between one or two hitpoints.
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