Master of the woods? - not really

[Mickon2007]

Woodelves can build cottages, farms etc. inmidst of woods - nice advantage in the beginning, because no need to chop.

They also get good defensive advantages inside woods - but - and here comes my complaint - its only a defensive advantage.

The bad thing is, that enemies, who enter woodelves territory also get a sufficently great advantage: they approach woodelves towns on a path through all those uncut woods and get an extremely useful defense bonus in these woods. And here it proves true, that woodelves are not at all masters of the woods, as (i think) they should be. As - as far as i could see - they get no offensive bonuses if they attack enemies in woods, those enemies

1. always have a safe path through elven territory
2. can destroy in safety all those improvements so nicely built within woods

Helplessly watching them march through my territory was really frustrating and destroyed my confidence to be a master of the woods.

In my opinion - regarding roleplay - no enemy unit should even DARE to enter a wood inside woodelf territory, because it should mean sure death for him. They should carefully walk around those wood-tiles, avoiding them at all costs.

Do you agree? If yes, could it be an option to give woodelve units a good bonus if they ATTACK enemies who are in a forest/ancient forest/djungle-tile?
Or maybe lower enemy units defense if they are in a forest-tile inside woodelf territory?

 

[daladinn]

lets see...

for starters iirc the forest defensive promotion also applies to attack int he forests.

tactics with elves..

1 - you NEED fellowship of leaves. this is not optional. race for this to the exclusion of everything else.
2 - never ever ever build roads in a elven empire unless you are connecting resources. there is no reason to help your enemy travel. you already have double move through forest
3 - when you get gaurdian of nature you are allowed forest defense 2. forest defense 1 and 2 shoudl be yoru very first promos you give your units. 120% to both attack and defense in forests is a great advantage.
4 - soon as you get FoL get your priests, you need to bloom forests everywhere.
5 - right after priests get a few adepts and start casting treetop defense. this gives all your units +2 first strike as long as they stay in the woods.
6 - from here you have 3 paths that i can reccomend for differing tactics...
6a - calvary , your calvary require deer instead of horses. additionally having calvary that move quickly through forest can be HUGE when coupled with forest def 2.
6b - archery , longbowmen and then the later flurry and marksmen will make short work of anything coming inside your tree line.
6c - recon , the recon line is STRONG with rangers and assasins and then moving to beastmasters and druids (druids now get bonus for nature mana). the key trick here lies in forest steath. if your enemy never sees yoru units he cant defend against them (either on an offensive movement or defensive movement).

ALWAYS remember taht you have hunters and hawks from an early stage in the game. given the number of animals running around now you shoudl never be low on EXP or animals for cages.

try this and see what you think.... honesty you were veiwing the elves wrong.

gl and have fun.

 

[Mickon2007]

honesty you were veiwing the elves wrong.

OOps, while I was writing my post I already considered this as a possibility

Thanx for your really great hints, daladinn. FoL I already adopted from a roleplay point of view, but i.e. not to build roads and the other hints are really much appreciated!

[edit: I always thought that enemy units (in war with me) cant use roads in my territory - wrong idea?]

I'm rather new in this Fall from Heaven business - so can you please explain how woodelves are able to catch animals into cages? I didn't even know they can.

Thanx again for your nice info. I will print it out and start my woodelves in a new game (too many roads in my present one ).

 

[Grey Fox]

I'm rather new in this Fall from Heaven business - so can you please explain how woodelves are able to catch animals into cages? I didn't even know they can.

All Recon units (scouts, hunters, rangers etc) can get the Subdue Animal promotion, if you got Animal Husbandry and the unit has the Combat I promotion. This will make them catch every animal they defeat. The animals can then be used in combat or to plant a cage in a city with a carnival, giving +1 and some culture.

 

[[NWO]_Valis]

A remark: FoL, guardians of nature, 'tree hugers' .......capturing animals and putting them in cages for amusement?!

I would say it is little hypocritical.

 

[Grey Fox]

A remark: FoL, guardians of nature, 'tree hugers' .......capturing animals and putting them in cages for amusement?!

I would say it is little hypocritical.

Think of it as letting the animals live with the elves. They are not really en caged, they are playing with the elves.

 

[TravellingHat]

I agree with the above [edit - waaaay above. Lots of posts in the time it took me to write this short essay!], most notably on the subject of forest stealth. Given forests do not impede your movement, your border guards can sit unobserved, hit the enemy and melt back into the woods. Unless the invader has anti-stealth you can pick them off at your leisure. The ability to choose when to fight both reduces your casualties (therefore less production spent on reinforcements) and exponentially improves your defenders as they accrue promotions.

Also, though an invader may get a defensive bonus from the trees, as already noted you have available considerably more in the way of offensive bonuses (Woodsman I and II), not to mention far greater mobility unless the invader has commando promotions AND there are convenient roads. Add to that Treetop Defense for extra first strikes, and Poisoned Blade for your recon units (which will probably make your best border patrols) and you should roll on the floor laughing when some mutton-headed orc is stupid enough to step into the shade of a tree. The random appearance of defending treants is the icing on the cake (I believe Ygdrassil increases the likelihood of their spawning, as well).

I'm playng a hotseat with my brother at the moment. As Amelanchier (excellent traits for this) his border patrol hunters (promoted combat I, II, woodsman I, forest stealth before anything else) have almost hero-like promotions now. These are supplemented by woodsman + mobility promoted swordsmen stationed in cities to rush out and finish off any that slip past the hunters. The archers that make up his regular garrisons are getting fat from lack of exercise!

Another tactic you might use is to exploit existing choke points, or create them with Guardian Vines, funnelling invaders towards wooded hills. Elven archers fortified on wooded hills will shred anything coming at them. Start them out with Guerilla I and Woodsman I and II promotions, cast Treetop Defence on them and promote them with Drill/Combat (maybe also Formation if you're facing cavalry), and it'll be a determined attacker indeed that'll get past you.

Depending on the terrain, you might also want to create a desert killing ground. This would be a strip of desert, natural or produced using scorch if you have convenient plains, as a border outside your forest. Incoming units are slowed by the desert movement penalty, while you use mobility promoted units, preferably with forest stealth, that can nip out of the woods, whack the enemy when they're suffering a -25% defence penalty, and disappear back into the trees. Don't use Treetop Defence here, though, as your units will lose as soon as they enter the desert.

I'm playing Kandros in the hotseat game, and I wish my forces were half as deadly in hills as my brother's are in forest. Personally, I'd like to see the guerilla line being a hill version of the woodsman line: offensive bonus, plus a stealth promotion (recon only) at the end of it (particular since guerilla implies hit-and-run warfare from hiding). But... that's for another thread!

Best of luck, and remember: you rule the forests!

 

[katika]

Depending on the terrain, you might also want to create a desert killing ground. This would be a strip of desert, natural or produced using scorch if you have convenient plains, as a border outside your forest. Incoming units are slowed by the desert movement penalty, while you use mobility promoted units, preferably with forest stealth, that can nip out of the woods, whack the enemy when they're suffering a -25% defence penalty, and disappear back into the trees. Don't use Treetop Defence here, though, as your units will lose as soon as they enter the desert.

Actually, if your unit never "stays" in a nonforest tile (only attacks into it), it will keep Treetop Defense. I've used Treetop "defense" to attack cities many times.

Also, remember that units entering Ancient Forests have a chance of spawning Treants (requires FoL?). Having AV in your cities is supposed to increase that chance, but I'm not sure if it's worth it in Fire unless you're the Good leader (so no Hell to destroy your forests).

 

[wicshade]

If im not mistaken only recon units can promote to woodsman II, and mele untits are the only units able to promote to woodsman I other thand recon. This makes the woodsman promotion a little more useles because you can't use archers or mele units except for city defense.

 

[vorshlumpf]

If im not mistaken only recon units can promote to woodsman II, and mele untits are the only units able to promote to woodsman I other thand recon. This makes the woodsman promotion a little more useles because you can't use archers or mele units except for city defense.

Yup. Or, I'd really like to know how previous posters were getting archers and cavalry with Woodsman II - it's one of my only disappointments with playing the elves.

I love the elves, overall. Daladinn's strategy is pretty much the same as what I do - with the exception that I don't capture animals or even use them as food/entertainment resources

 

[TravellingHat]

@Katika - thanks for clarifying Treetop Defense. I hadn't realised that.

My mistake regarding archers with woodsman (and I didn't suggest cavalry). I haven't used them myself, but was trying to imagine how to make them tougher. Frankly guerilla I (which archers can get) plus natural archer hill defense bonus plus inate elven woodland bonuses plus Treetop Defense, should be more than sufficient (and all for only a single promotion, namely guerilla I). I'll confess, my knowlege isn't encyclodaedic, but my error does not invalidate the principle.

I don't see why archers and melee can only be used for city defense. Even unpromoted non-elven archers are good defenders, particularly on hills, and melee can fulfill whatever role you promote them for, though in certain cases they're better suited to anti-city or anti-melee.

 

[Arpymaster]

This topics helps my complain about treants. They have an awsome unit but you will almost never see them. Let us build treants, and make them invisible inside forests. Make them less powerfull, maybe str 6-7, and can gain xp.

This is a unit I would love to see more often, not only when someone invades a FOL civ.

 

[TravellingHat]

This topics helps my complain about treants. They have an awsome unit but you will almost never see them. Let us build treants, and make them invisible inside forests. Make them less powerfull, maybe str 6-7, and can gain xp.

This is a unit I would love to see more often, not only when someone invades a FOL civ.

Oddly, I seem to see loads when I'm invading a FoL civ! I guess that must be the poker player's view of other people's luck. Having said that, my brother's had two spawns in our hotseat (hmm, maybe I should rephrase that), and we're not that far into the game. That's probablity for you.

I think Ygdrassil increases their chance of spawning, and you can summon them with druids I believe (nature III summon?), unless of course you're playing Arendel.

I should state I'm running ver 21 not 22, if that makes a difference.

 

[[NWO]_Valis]

Something that may even be a bug: In my last game as CoE I adopted FoL for a short time and one of my forests turned into ancient forest. Later, after switching to another religion, I was in war with Os-Gabela who was FoL. She came into my lands unseen with a horseman and parked in that ancient forest. When I attacked it with my axemen it spawned a treant but it belonged to the enemy! Yup, it spawned a treant on MY lands for the enemy.

[I do not remember if it was directly the moment I attacked or the move after I wanted to move on the ancient forest title]

Treants are bad, their spawn rate is ok for FoL IMO.

 

[Celeborn]

A remark: FoL, guardians of nature, 'tree hugers' .......capturing animals and putting them in cages for amusement?!

I would say it is little hypocritical.

Or you could view them like the Bosmer from the Elderscroll's mythos. They swore a pact never to injure, harm or eat any -plant- or -tree-, basically flora.

As such they are strict carnivores, sometimes even partaking in canniblism. Anything that breaths is game for hunting, killing and eating. So all fauna

 

[wicshade]

After playing a game with the elves on mocarch, ive come to the conclusion that all of the elven units should be able to get up to woodsman II, i also think that gurdians of nature should give all new units the woodsman I promotion. The elves only strength is defense(and to me that is thier best flavor). Im my game I found myself making tons of recon units and very few of anything else.

giving elves the woodsman II promotion should be fairly balanced because it is realy only useful in my homelands.

 

[daladinn]

sorry guys, i was wrong on the woodsman 2 promos. you can only get woodsman 2 on on the calvary and recon lines (calvary since you can upgrade a scout with woodsman 2 to a horseman).

 

[vorshlumpf]

Assuming you can build scouts with 5+ XP.
That is a valid point, though - I hadn't thought about it. I'm not a fan of these exploits to get promotions for units, mainly because I feel compelled to exploit them (currently I'm dealing with the Lightbringer's -> Priests of the Order upgrade for Sentry I...).

My mistake regarding archers with woodsman (and I didn't suggest cavalry). I haven't used them myself, but was trying to imagine how to make them tougher. Frankly guerilla I (which archers can get) plus natural archer hill defense bonus plus inate elven woodland bonuses plus Treetop Defense, should be more than sufficient (and all for only a single promotion, namely guerilla I). I'll confess, my knowlege isn't encyclodaedic, but my error does not invalidate the principle.

I never go for Guerrilla except at the beginning of the game (before I sprout trees everywhere with my Disciples of Leaves). Woodsman applies on the attack, and I'm very happy for that because I would hate to sit by helplessly as enemies waltzed through my empire pillaging my ancient forest towns.

 

[TravellingHat]

If the terrain allows, I like to have static guards (with guerilla if on hills) to protect strategic positions, with mobile units to do the proper fighting. These static guards also make good rallying points if a border patrol gets a mauling and needs some protection while healing up. Hunters/rangers/assassins are my preferred border patrols, but it's hard to top an archer for holding a hill.

Another advantage of guerilla is it combines with City Garrison to make a tough defender for a hill city, and where possible I'll always found my cities on hills.

I have toyed with the idea of getting RoK and Arete to promote a bunch of units up to guerilla II, then switch to FoL for woodsman II, to make a kind of all-terrain unit. Upon reflection, though, probably far more trouble than it's worth, and needs a fourth level unit with no other promotions. Mobility and something more direct to combat would probably give better mileage.

 

[kenken244]

another helpfull tip to help defence is to build temples of leaves everywhere- they triple the chance of treents spawning in the citys fat cross