Master of the woods? - not really

[Bringa]

Here's a question: how much of a counter to this elf build would it be to set their woods on fire? Would that help at all? (not that Kandros could do it without adepting veil/order, right?)

 

[Gamestation]

Here's a question: how much of a counter to this elf build would it be to set their woods on fire? Would that help at all? (not that Kandros could do it without adepting veil/order, right?)

Probably doesn't help because ancient forests are not supposed to catch on fire.

I guess if you want to attack a woodelf, you should bring along a lot of units with woodsman to be able to dent the units that are going to be coming after you or blocking you. Be ready to replace a lot of units if they turn out to be particularly stubborn. Also, think very carefully about the value of the city that you will capture because the elves can come zooming in towards the city as soon as you take it if it was surrounded by ancient forests.

 

[eerr]

Probably doesn't help because ancient forests are not supposed to catch on fire.

I guess if you want to attack a woodelf, you should bring along a lot of units with woodsman to be able to dent the units that are going to be coming after you or blocking you. Be ready to replace a lot of units if they turn out to be particularly stubborn. Also, think very carefully about the value of the city that you will capture because the elves can come zooming in towards the city as soon as you take it if it was surrounded by ancient forests.

and treants are only spawned for leaves civs, which means attacking enemy units in ancient forests in "your" territory can spawn treants

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I personally think that unowned ancient forests should spawn barbarian treants.

 

[xAlephx]

It's really, really hard to dig them out of their forests. I'm not sure what hell terrain does to ancient forests - that might be an interesting approach, if it turns it into some other kind of landscape.

Other than that... either don't let them get their forest kingdom established, or be prepared to bleed buckets for every step you take on their land. It's probably your best bet to assault coastal cities with overwhelming force - your enemy will know where to find you and distribute troops accordingly, but at least you won't have a long slog through treant generators.

 

[much2much]

1 - you NEED fellowship of leaves. this is not optional. race for this to the exclusion of everything else.

But do you NEED to found it?
Remember you still get a chap to spread it in one of your cities when you discover the tech.
All you lose is the founder can see in your cities and you can't use the bard to create the great temple thing.
Its not like you are missing out on getting a hero by founding it second as with Veil and Order. Even OO is like this in that whoever founds it will probably get Mind Stapling and hence Saverous first.

I race for archery with Elves. Gilden is such a powerhouse early game.

 

[Gamestation]

Speaking of Fellowship of the Leaves, if someone wanted to uproot a well established Elven empire, couldn't a person just switch to Fellowship, research Hidden Paths, and then proceed to pump out woodsman II rangers of their own?

 

[much2much]

To do what exactly? Sure they can stand in your forests but for what purpose? Also they will cause treants to spawn if they are there long.

 

[Gamestation]

To do what exactly? Sure they can stand in your forests but for what purpose? Also they will cause treants to spawn if they are there long.

To guard a city attacking force, unless the elves made a wall that was 10 units deep on each tile, they can't easily stop the attacker from marching through with units guarded by rangers with woodsman II and the tile defense bonus. Every battle would be risky for the elves because the rangers would have at least +150% strength on the defense. And as far as I know, treants spawn only when the someone moves into a forest tile and no other unit was in that tile.

 

[vorshlumpf]

Speaking of Fellowship of the Leaves, if someone wanted to uproot a well established Elven empire, couldn't a person just switch to Fellowship, research Hidden Paths, and then proceed to pump out woodsman II rangers of their own?

That sounds like a viable counter-strategy.
However, if I'm the elves, and my enemy has to first switch religions, research an expensive tech, and then make new units with the new promotions in order to have a chance to combat me on my own turf, then I'd be smiling.

 

[Vorgen]

I've just been invaded by the orcs in my elven game, and it is mighty fun. I had two fort-like places in a line of mountains that separated the orcish hordes from the elven empire, and they attacked me at both places. In one my defensive forces were getting overwhelmed, so I faded into my forests to recuperate. They followed me, to their peril! I picked them off one by one with my healed units and the occasional treant. Now I've turned the tide of battle and have destroyed their invading force and gone after their nearest city with the defenders. Do you think it will be possible put a priest of leaves in the stack and bloom forests offensively? Or does it have to be within my cultural borders? I'll have to check.

The second defensive position held for a while, but orcish reinforcements came so I'm doin the same thing. I've applied a second tactic too, getting Yvain the woodelf up in there to cast root on a stack of 22 orc units. Now they're just sitting there being stupid while I fill the forests around them with druids, rangers, and fire mana using mages.

 

[TravellingHat]

@Vorgen: And that's the beauty of the elven defense at work. Sadly though, Bloom is within borders only (unless changed in the latest patch).

 

[Sovin nai]

I believe that you can also summon treants if you are in any forest at all, not just in your cultural borders or an ancient forest. Its a level two or three nature summon. And I don't think that they dissapear after a turn. Which means that you could have an army of them in enemy territory. So if the enemy gets nature mana, then they can expand really fast into your territory.

 

[Gamestation]

I believe that you can also summon treants if you are in any forest at all, not just in your cultural borders or an ancient forest. Its a level two or three nature summon. And I don't think that they dissapear after a turn. Which means that you could have an army of them in enemy territory. So if the enemy gets nature mana, then they can expand really fast into your territory.

You can only summon and keep 1 treant per unit that can summon a treant (Nature III summon). Sounds like a good way to knock out the Ljosalfar defense if it gets too tough, though then you'll still be fighting Ljosalfar treants as well.

 

[wicshade]

i think if you have 3 summoners and 3 druids you can summon up to 6 permanant trents, also give your summoners combat five and spell extension 2 if you can. with 6 trents in a stack you are untouchable in elven territory

then use your trents as guards for your stacks of units also if you can get some units with fire strength in the stack.

also i think in a later version units will be able to gain mana affinities or something like that so you might be able to have armies of fire axemen and such

i think the dovielo may have melle units that can chop down forest, or you could have about 5 workers in a large deffending stack, you can take out the forest one section at a time if you needed to build supply lines to your siege post (for reinforcements) around the elven cities.

 

[Grey Fox]

i think the dovielo may have melle units that can chop down forest,

I think the Clan can too

 

[jwin]

I think axemen should get bonuses against treants. Those weapons are almost made for chopping down walking trees.

 

[Sovin nai]

Most melee units should, in fact.

 

[wicshade]

i don't think all axemen or any other unit should get a bonus against trents.

id rather have a promotion that gave elemntal damage

ex
fire damage I,<requires combat 2> it gives + 1 fire attack
fire damage II <requires combat 4> gieves an additional 1 point of fire damage and an increase in elemental damage of 10&#37;
fire damage III <requires combat 5> gives + 2 fire damage and starts fire in forest jungle, and even acient forest terrain

id also like to see water, ice, and air/ligtning. maybe give units with water elemntal damage a slight bonus in woods, because vegatation should be stronger with plenty of water, no?

also i think these promotion should discriminate against one another i wouldnt see a fire ice unit or a water lightning unit.

 

[Polycrates]

I think it's fine how it is. Green troops fresh out of the barracks are going to bumble around the place whether they're elven or not, and it only takes a single promo to even the odds when attacking in a forest. As defenders, though, they're nice and solid.
And once you get Woodsman II on a few of your hunters/rangers (plus poison and treetop defense), nothing is getting more than a couple of squares into your borders. Being on forest then becomes a distinct disadvantage to defense, even for Woodsman I units. And the same unit on the defensive is almost impossible to dislodge.

Besides that, any attack is going to be very sloooow, even with haste. So you've got plenty of time to concentrate your fast-moving defenders (and less danger of a blitz from another direction if you do).
Only cavalry will move more than one square in forest, but anyone sending unescorted no-woodsman-no-defensive-bonuses cavalry into elven forest (hi Tasunke!) might as well just throw the hammers away.

So even if your borders are too wide to set up chokepoints, and the enemy is too smart to rush headlong into your stack that's fortified on a forested hill, you can easily guard your important tiles (to the point where they're tougher than cities) and make taking and pillaging them much more trouble than it's worth. I'm a big fan of pillaging harassment, but I wouldn't dream of it against the elves (especially with treants too).
And even if an all-out assault on a large enemy stack in the forest is difficult, you can harass and whittle down the stack as they move, with good odds and with little fear of counterattack.

Meanwhile, they're also the masters of other peoples' forests, so a woodsman archer or hunter on an enemy forest can make a very effective staging point for harassing raids through enemy territory.

The only wierd thing is that the Priest of Leaves, the guy so in tune with the forests that he can create the things out of nothing, can't get the Woodsman promo. But he can get City Raider . I'd definitely let him get at least Woodsman I, and get rid of the CR.
Also, Elven Riders get a forest bonus while the Fyrdwell, who are so foresty that they ride fricking deers, don't?

How to attack elves? Apart from just rushing in early (and hopefully stealing their incense), I'd say either attack via the coast or just build a larger-than-normal stack with some woodsman archers/hunters to defend it, and just suck it up and charge straight at the nearest city, avoiding ancient forest where possible. Send a single guy to move before the rest of the stack so that the rest can attack or flee from any treants that pop up. And give your guys the elf slayer promo where possible. Maybe bring some workers along to chop the trees as you go. Also you can still scorch plains/ancient forest, though the trees and the 50% defense stays. Ummmmm that's about it really.