[MoO] Master or Orion 4

[vmxa]

Watch Quill18's LP of the new MOO. I like what I have seen so far. Not yet in early access, but it is better than I expected.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

Watch Quill18's LP of the new MOO. I like what I have seen so far. Not yet in early access, but it is better than I expected.

I got the game in early access. Played a couple hours so far. It is shaping up to be a great game. It has lots of personality and charm. A lot of fun. Empire management is very intuitive. There is no tedious micro at all. Tactical battles right now are cool but don't have a lot of tactics. Hopefully, tactical combat will be improved since the game is still in alpha.

 

[PhilBowles]

I've now been playing it for a while and commenting in the thread in Other Games, but to summarise for people not reading that: definitely it's better than expected and the MOO feel is there.

It seems a bit too conservative - it's close enough to a straight remake of MOO 2 that features like star lanes and pseudo-real time combat seem out of place and don't obviously add anything to gameplay, but on the flip side they don't detract from it to the extent I'd feared (or much at all, really).

Given that the space 4x genre is by nature very conservative, having added little over the years to the MOO 2 formula (certainly when compared with the extent to which Civ games have evolved over time), a near-remake of MOO 2 still feels relevant and at this Early Access stage it's already better than recent published space 4xes I'm familiar with.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

Big patch (Early Access 40.13) was released today.

Here are the patch notes from the devs that was posted on the MOO forum:

Please remember that our game is still in development, some changes may be subject to further review. We are eager to get your feedback! Some of the things that we are testing are:
Improvements in the AI.
A more varied galaxy in terms of planet classes and mineral richness (please remember to randomize the seed to try different generated galaxies).
Balance adjustments for a more hardcore experience.
Scale and speed adjustments in tactical battles to make room for a bigger playfield.

See the full list of changes:

General
Added flag checkbox to un-colonized planets.
Fixed soft-lock in victory/defeat popup.
Fixed soft-lock in Planet Review.
Fixed issue on fleets visibility after Share Charts.
Fixed Fleet Icon visibility when different fleet hull sizes are docked in the same navigation node.
Fixed Fleet Icon in the Galaxy map when fleets depart to an anomalies.
[Ship Design] Fixed exploit that allowed to create fully loaded ships paying as empty ships.
Fixed issue with Galaxy Generator (Orbital distribution).
Turn limit indicator removed in path to victory when Excellence Victory disabled.
Now the Game acknowledges that it can't store save games and popups a warning.
Fixed freeze when demanding a Colony at the same time as asking for a vote in the Galactic Council.
Balance
[Galactic Council] Changed trigger condition from all races knowing both candidates to all races knowing each other.
[Galactic Council] Implement a minimum turn for triggering galactic council.
[Balance] Galaxy ages are now more different from each other (MoO2 style).
[Balance] Large and Huge planets chances slightly increased in the Galaxy Generator.
[Balance] Changed BC progression and starting structures upkeep.
[Balance] Costs for Ship Upgrade and Buyout increased.
[Balance] Command Points exceeded changed from 10 to 20BC.
[Balance] Marine barracks now give +5% Morale.
[Balance] Capitol morale bonus reduced to 25% (from 30% ).
[Balance] AI Opening now end at turn 1 (AI performs better with this restriction).
[Morale] Taxes start affecting morale with 1BC per population.
[Morale] Race base morale now starts at 100%
[Balance] Removed the cohesive trait from races that used it (it improves AI's colonization and defenses as they play in a more pack style).
[Balance] Biome chances modified in the Galaxy Generator.
AI
[AI] Changes in Production: removed order in production rating, top priority production bypasses global ETA limit, added the worker income bonus to structures scoring, avoid idle production in colonies while trade goods is not available, colony ships changed priority from top to high.
[AI] On full defense, disabled below high priority to engage targets.
[AI] Lowered priorities for pirate bombardment and engaging.
[AI] Added conditions to Demand Evaluation. Will now reject demands that demand more than 1 colony, or a colony in a system with more colonies.
[AI] Added fatigue after a demand is accepted: FATIGUE_DEMAND. Now set in 25 turns.
[AI] Added ship upgrade (ship refit)
[AI] Bug fix for military retreat.
Tactical
[Tactical] Fixed FX for Torpedoes.
[Tactical] Fixed Anti-Missile Rockets.
[Tactical] Optimization for defensive weapons.
[Tactical] Proton Torpedo exception fixed!
[Tactical] Added one more ring on the big battlefield grid.
[Tactical] Tweaked scales for ships now contemplates pirates.
[Tactical] fixed the big battlefield limits.
UI
[UI] Tweaks for alternative multiline tooltip. Modifiers rows support multiline now.
[UI] Fixed black squares appearing on the interface.
[Techtree] Updated all technology images.
[UI] Added max population on known planets and planet tooltip.
[UI] Fixed issue with colonies list docking when the player had around 20 colonies or more.
[UI] Fixed strike population on colonies text fields.
[Ship Design] Disable models and decals for Pixel Ships in Ship Design.
Diplomacy
[Diplomacy] Fix Memory Rebuked line on some rejected demands.
[Diplomacy] Share Charts will only be asked to civilizations with whom I have enough disposition, and know at least 3 stars I don't know
Multiplayer
[Multiplayer] Fixed issue when Player 1 upgrades ships, Player 2 can observe Player's 1 fleet info block on the left bottom corner.
Localization
[Localization] Ships module update.
[Localization] Updated "Thanks for participating in the Early Access" message.
[Localization] Changed Language Detection to set English or Russian Language.
[Localization] First recommendation added in all Welcome descriptions.
[Tooltips] Changed Low and High gravity tooltips.
SFX
[SFX] Warp sounds added.
[SFX] Notification sound updated.
[SFX] Placeholder explosion sounds updated.
[SFX] Added new Galactic Council theme.
[Music] Restart Music during Audience if the AI changed disposition

 

[PhilBowles]

Big patch (Early Access 40.13) was released today.

Here are the patch notes from the devs that was posted on the MOO forum:

Please remember that our game is still in development, some changes may be subject to further review. We are eager to get your feedback! Some of the things that we are testing are:
Improvements in the AI.
A more varied galaxy in terms of planet classes and mineral richness (please remember to randomize the seed to try different generated galaxies).

Good news - definitely agree with this advice. My playthrough has been on seed 0, which is a peculiarly bad showcase for the game: the two wormholes are in a pointless location with only one system between them, there are no nebulae, and - indeed - planet variety does not seem great.

[Balance] Costs for Ship Upgrade and Buyout increased.
[Balance] Command Points exceeded changed from 10 to 20BC.
[Balance] Marine barracks now give +5% Morale.
[Balance] Capitol morale bonus reduced to 25% (from 30% ).

All seem welcome - morale has too few ways to affect it (though its impact also seems too minor to care about, with bad morale leading to maybe 2 of 12-16 citizens being unproductive).

[AI] Lowered priorities for pirate bombardment and engaging.

Unless they become relevant, I'll be playing future games with pirates disabled anyway - they have two ship classes, both underpowered, and don't do anything to colonies so they can mostly be ignored even if you don't just build a missile base to beat them. At least add significant defensive forces to pirate bases a la Sins of a Solar Empire - changing their behaviour doesn't do anything when they aren't capable.

Tactical
[Tactical] Fixed FX for Torpedoes.
[Tactical] Fixed Anti-Missile Rockets.
[Tactical] Optimization for defensive weapons.
[Tactical] Proton Torpedo exception fixed!
[Tactical] Added one more ring on the big battlefield grid.
[Tactical] Tweaked scales for ships now contemplates pirates.
[Tactical] fixed the big battlefield limits.

I wasn't aware of most of these issues, which speaks volumes as to how little relevance they have to the tactical system's issues. Stances need to be enabled to enable longer-range combat that allows both tactical play and provide greater relevance to mass drivers and long-range targeting.

Seem no major changes as of yet - I was hoping for a patch that would enable espionage (and Darloks), assimilation and other features so far missing. If 'fixed AI retreat' now means AI can retreat from combat that will be helpful, but as far as I can tell there isn't even a button to retreat so I presumed it was a feature not yet implemented rather than a bug.

Better still if they fix AI behaviour so that it doesn't suicide destroyers one by one into larger forces, and change the attributes of ships and weapons so that tactical combat is less one-sided than now. At present, one side almost always wins with no or minimal losses, completely wiping the enemy - rather than hard-fought battles in which both sides take significant losses.

 

[Civinator]

[Ship Design] Disable models and decals for Pixel Ships in Ship Design.

SupremacyKing2, thank you very much for your report about the update.

Can you (or somebody else) please explain to me, what is that feature with these pixel ships. Can I create or import here other ships from like the Enterprise or the battlestar Galactica, if they are done in the correct format? Can I import here ship graphics from former versions of MOO or Space Empires?

BTW.: I would be very glad, if there will come an upgrade of the new MOO that allows turn based combat again, as in my eyes this was the best and central feature of the former MOO games.

 

[vmxa]

Civinator, it would be great see modding and have you create one for Moo.

 

[Pfeffersack]

BTW.: I would be very glad, if there will come an upgrade of the new MOO that allows turn based combat again, as in my eyes this was the best and central feature of the former MOO games.

Same for me. RTS (not perse, but for Moo) ist just an unnecessary attempt to get "modern" and creates all kind of problems (like assymetry between human Player and AI in terms of how many ships you can effectively control individually at the same time). Gameplaywise, I'm convined that it would have been be better for the whole game if they had decided to put all the ressources they have scheduled for getting RTS battles somewhere just in improving the old-school TBS battles (improving AI, comfortable interface, squishing bugs, balancing weapon/special system stuff around this, exting the entire system to land battles and so on)

Sadly I have very little hope that the developers will hear to this

 

[PhilBowles]

Same for me. RTS (not perse, but for Moo) ist just an unnecessary attempt to get "modern" and creates all kind of problems (like assymetry between human Player and AI in terms of how many ships you can effectively control individually at the same time). Gameplaywise, I'm convined that it would have been be better for the whole game if they had decided to put all the ressources they have scheduled for getting RTS battles somewhere just in improving the old-school TBS battles (improving AI, comfortable interface, squishing bugs, balancing weapon/special system stuff around this, exting the entire system to land battles and so on)

Sadly I have very little hope that the developers will hear to this

Combat seems much improved since they added the extra ring in the patch, as that slows the pacing of play appropriately. If it can achieve the same style of gameplay without clicking individual ships, sending them a few squares at a time, over several turns before engaging, then manually targeting every missile with point defence weapons etc., it will be an improvement over the original.

Right now battles are too one-sided even between notionally balanced forces, the AI just rushes its units ahead anyway (the system really needs stance commands so you can keep some ships back to use long-range weapons), and the AI is simply far too weak - I'm sad my black hole generators can't do anything because my enemies don't send large numbers of ships my way.

Plus they need a way to let the AI name ships - this isn't as trivial as it sounds, since otherwise the AI can only ever have one frigate design, one destroyer design etc. at a time, and it unlocks new ship designs at a crawl.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I've now been playing it for a while and commenting in the thread in Other Games, but to summarise for people not reading that: definitely it's better than expected and the MOO feel is there.

It seems a bit too conservative - it's close enough to a straight remake of MOO 2 that features like star lanes and pseudo-real time combat seem out of place and don't obviously add anything to gameplay, but on the flip side they don't detract from it to the extent I'd feared (or much at all, really).

Given that the space 4x genre is by nature very conservative, having added little over the years to the MOO 2 formula (certainly when compared with the extent to which Civ games have evolved over time), a near-remake of MOO 2 still feels relevant and at this Early Access stage it's already better than recent published space 4xes I'm familiar with.

I've logged 38 hours so far. And it does have the MoO2 feel. But when I post it's the MoO2.5 that everyone expected and wanted from MoOIII, boy howdy does the "flak" start flying! Of course saying I actually "Loved playing/modding" MoOIII starts the MoOIII and "you" suck replies.

I find right now that I'm playing MoO CtS more than I am Modding Caveman2Cosmos here at CF.

And finally,
@Pfeffersack,
Supposedly they had a turn based Combat system at the beginning of development but opted to go RTS instead after a bit. Now there are many that are bring up to the Devs why not have an Option for either. Problem is with this (even though it would be a great thing to have) it would require 2 sets of Combat AI, if I understand it correctly from the coding side.

@vmxa,
Hello!

JosEPh

 

[Rocco.40]

Supposedly they had a turn based Combat system at the beginning of development but opted to go RTS instead after a bit. Now there are many that are bring up to the Devs why not have an Option for either. Problem is with this (even though it would be a great thing to have) it would require 2 sets of Combat AI, if I understand it correctly from the coding side.

It would also require two sets of technologies that are affected by such change; some techs give x effect per turn or in case of moo4 x effect per time interval

 

[vmxa]

Hi JosEPh, good to see you posting. I suspect that most Moo fans, never played Moo3 with the current mods.

I think they have done better than I hoped and more may yet be coming for this reboot. My issue is the missile swarming. This was a problem in Star Drive 2. Late game the Ai would make a lot of ships filled with missiles and wreck ships.

I want to see a relational strength for ships. I do not want to see 6 frigates take down a titan or doom star. Battleships, should beat destroyers. You should need numbers to offset better ships and or tech.

Moo3 also could run into battles where a stack of fighters could swarm and take down stronger fleets. It should be ok to swarm, but it should require much larger numbers to accomplish.

In Moo3 you could use PD to offset, such as Lighting Fields. So far you cannot in the reboot, as the missiles are too numerous and too fast. That can be addressed, they may not though.

All in all it is off to a very good start. It is aided by the low expectations, caused by Moo3's start. Just my .02.

 

[PhilBowles]

I've logged 38 hours so far. And it does have the MoO2 feel. But when I post it's the MoO2.5 that everyone expected and wanted from MoOIII, boy howdy does the "flak" start flying! Of course saying I actually "Loved playing/modding" MoOIII starts the MoOIII and "you" suck replies.

Distant Worlds is still the game that MOOIII should have been - the new MOO is good as MOO 2 redux, but it's overly-long and colony management - being basically lifted wholesale from MOO 2 - is really too basic for a modern 4x. The combat system that should be its highlight is fine mechanically, but the AI's performance with it is atrocious - not tactically, just in terms of building appropriate ships and using them in appropriate numbers.

And finally,
@Pfeffersack,
Supposedly they had a turn based Combat system at the beginning of development but opted to go RTS instead after a bit. Now there are many that are bring up to the Devs why not have an Option for either. Problem is with this (even though it would be a great thing to have) it would require 2 sets of Combat AI, if I understand it correctly from the coding side.

I don't think the combat is RTS, and the above explains a lot. Torpedoes, for instance, fire once every two turns according to the tooltip, and shield recharge appears to be turn-based, where in an RTS it occurs continuously. What they seem to have done is tried a turn-based system, and instead of recoding everything to make the game a true RTS in combat, they just removed the pauses between turns so that it seems real-time.

Of course that makes it easy enough to reinsert them as an option. For exactly the same reasons it doesn't make sense to code a real-time game to be turn-based, evidently the designers felt it didn't make sense to code a system they started with as turn-based as true real-time.

I really don't find it an issue - what MOO had (and the new game has) that every subsequent space 4x didn't was a tactical system that allowed you to control your units and activate the modules and upgrades you gave them, rather than having those just act as passive modifiers. This is the important feature the new game captures - and frankly the old turn-based system could be a chore a lot of the time.

Once they fix AI behaviour in recruiting and using fleets, and allow it to make varied designs in a given ship class, I think the system will outperform the turn-based MOO2 system. As it is there's an option to slow the battle speed, and the patch change increasing the size of the map made a big difference.

It would also require two sets of technologies that are affected by such change; some techs give x effect per turn or in case of moo4 x effect per time interval

Everything in the new game, at least as described in its tooltips, is turn-based - while there is a DPS rating, this isn't even accompanied by a rate of fire stat for weapons, and appears to bear very little relation to actual gameplay. Only continuous fire appears to require real-time coding of some sort.

I think they have done better than I hoped and more may yet be coming for this reboot. My issue is the missile swarming. This was a problem in Star Drive 2. Late game the Ai would make a lot of ships filled with missiles and wreck ships.

You've actually played games where the AI has a lot of ships?

Missile swarming, if it exists, is an issue only because it can be exploited - the AI isn't going to use heavy armour on missiles and it doesn't build PD weapons of its own, while it's easy enough for a player to make ships effectively immune to missile attack.

I want to see a relational strength for ships. I do not want to see 6 frigates take down a titan or doom star. Battleships, should beat destroyers. You should need numbers to offset better ships and or tech.

That would disfavour the AI even more as it stands, since it appears unable to build ships of those classes - where it has any edge at all it's only in those cases where it does pull large numbers of destroyers and frigates together. Also bear in mind that there are races that are designed explicitly around swarm tactics - the Klackons' industry bonus in the older games was all about letting them spam vast numbers of ships.

One thing that should be changed to help the AI is the removal of single frigates in build options. You should be able to build destroyers either singly or in 5s, but frigates should be buildable only in squadrons of 5 or 10. The AI's tendency to move ships as individuals, with other fleets strung along behind them, also needs to be looked at.

 

[vmxa]

Swarming missiles, not ships. Doom star with about 175k rating (3x the guardian) was taking down by about 7 ships. None were larger than a cruiser. The Doom star had scores of PD, but could not deal with the missiles.

7 is a lot compared to one, but I really only mean that all the ships had been missile boats. The AI also took down a fleet of maybe 18 ships, with maybe 10 ships. The fleet of 18 had a titan and a few battleships, but was wiped by missiles.

It is not so much that missile were OP, as the battle field is smallish and the missiles get on them quickly. The limited PD options are not able to deal with it and the human player did not use missile extensively.

No need for heavy armor at this stage of the reboot as the PD is not up to doing much.

As it seems to stand now, there is little reason to make more than cruiser that packs lots of missiles. Torps are as they were in the old game. Awful, unless you got the end game ones. The fire once per 2 turns is bad news, in all but a miss match.

Often the first volley of torps hit rocks on the battle field and you are only going to get one more round off, if that in all but a walk over.

That is just what I have seen in the LP's I have watched. In the end it did not matter as the AI has no chance, but with the sure to come handicaps at impossible, who knows.

BTW the AI had a small empire and the human player had enough votes to win, so it is not as if the AI ships were actually good. The human ships even had X armor, from Orion.

 

[PhilBowles]

Swarming missiles, not ships. Doom star with about 175k rating (3x the guardian) was taking down by about 7 ships. None were larger than a cruiser. The Doom star had scores of PD, but could not deal with the missiles.

I'm still not seeing how that's happening - I played a game that ended in a score victory, and no AI had as many as 7 cruisers in a fleet (only the humans much favoured cruisers, and weren't using missile boats. Also you need MIRV to really swarm missiles, and I haven't seen the AI using upgrades). Since there's only one difficulty setting right now, you can't be playing on a different difficulty.

7 is a lot compared to one, but I really only mean that all the ships had been missile boats. The AI also took down a fleet of maybe 18 ships, with maybe 10 ships. The fleet of 18 had a titan and a few battleships, but was wiped by missiles.

I lost one early-game battle to Psilon missile swarms, but that was before even battleship tech, let alone titans.

It is not so much that missile were OP, as the battle field is smallish and the missiles get on them quickly. The limited PD options are not able to deal with it and the human player did not use missile extensively.

I'd say PD options are anything but limited in this game - there are PD weapons themselves, antimissile rockets, ECMs and the displacement device, all of which can be mounted on one ship if you want. I faced few enough relevant missiles that I saved space by cutting ECMs later on.

As it seems to stand now, there is little reason to make more than cruiser that packs lots of missiles.

You mean like the original games, save that space reduction with teching meant that you only needed frigates to do the same thing...? Swarms of missile frigates were always my go-to.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

Early Access phase 2 is on its way. No date for the release of the patch yet but here are some details from the devs of what EA 2 will bring:

The development team at NGD Studios is hard at work on the next phase of Early Access, and we’re excited to share the first details of the new content and features that will be introduced.

New Features/Content
Here’s what will be brand new for Early Access 2:

Three new races: Klackon, Meklar and Terran Khanate
One new victory condition: Technological
New feature: Custom Races
Support for Mac OS X 10.6 - 10.11 (Snow Leopard - El Capitan)
Additional language support
Changes to Existing Features/Content
In addition to new features and content, we are planning balance and usability updates for the following:

Tactical Battles
AI
EA 1 races: Alkari, Bulrathi, Human, Mrrshan, Psilon and Sakkra
Ship Design

We’re still in the process of locking down the exact timing of this update, but we wanted to share some of what’s coming. We’ll have more details on the new features and content, as well as the changes to existing features and content once we’re closer to the next phase of Early Access.

 

[PhilBowles]

Early Access phase 2 is on its way. No date for the release of the patch yet but here are some details from the devs of what EA 2 will bring:

Though espionage seemed a more logical next addition, since there's a whole set of systems in the tech tree devoted to it rather than just three victory buildings, this seems fine, and the areas in need of attention in the existing game are definitely the ones they mention. Adding a human splinter faction that has no particular relation to the new features over the Silacoids seems an odd decision, though - although MOO does need an aggressive faction as the AI is overly passive right now and all races except the Sakkra and Mrrshan are described as being unlikely to wage aggressive wars (which to some degree fits what I saw in game).

Updates I'd like to see in those areas:

Tactical battles - stances added to combat (defensive, aggressive, balanced) and the ability to set control groups. Ability to retreat implemented (and AI coded to use it when losing).

AI: Too numerous to count, but attention particularly needed to fleet management, aggression when at war, and diplomacy.

Races: Having only played as the Alkari I can't comment from experience, but just looking at relative bonuses the Alkari seem too strong (relevant trait and the only one affecting space combat, possibly the best homeworld trait, the best starting tech - not the reason I played them, incidentally, I always favoured Alkari in the older games), while the Sakkra and Bulrathi have negligible bonuses (though the Bulrathi benefit from good planet characteristics) and the Mrrshan trait just isn't very appropriate given the race's past incarnations - in the past the Bulrathi had bonuses in ground combat, and the Mrrshan had strong ships.

Ship design: Main thing needed is allowing the AI to name multiple ship designs per class, probably more ship design slots, and fixing facing (so that it is actually more expensive to have weapons facing any direction than directional weapons - which will also make torpedoes etc. more useful) and better tooltips with characteristics like rate of fire, as it's presently somewhat opaque why certain weapons take more space than others and to what degree they're more effective (remove the DPS stat as well, as it's meaningless and confusing - except for ships with graviton beams, low DPS ships seem to outperform high DPS ones, as absolute weapon damage trumps rate of fire). Assault boats presently don't seem to be available despite being unlocked as a tech option, and other planes below heavy fighter seem weak given the amount of space they take up (I'm not convinced heavy fighters are justifiable either - they seem effective, but not 100 units of space effective). Torpedoes need to be guided by default, as otherwise they invariably miss.

 

[Colon]

Question re ships: is there an incentive to have fleets with a mix of ship sizes? And is there an incentive to fit those ships with a mix of armaments?

 

[Rocco.40]

Everything in the new game, at least as described in its tooltips, is turn-based - while there is a DPS rating, this isn't even accompanied by a rate of fire stat for weapons, and appears to bear very little relation to actual gameplay. Only continuous fire appears to require real-time coding of some sort.

Well, that just means then that the tooltips are incorrect, and need to be updated, as there is no my-turn, your-turn. Weapons have various cooldown periods. It is RT with an option to pause, not TB.

 

[PhilBowles]

Question re ships: is there an incentive to have fleets with a mix of ship sizes? And is there an incentive to fit those ships with a mix of armaments?

There is a very marked difference in speeds between ship classes (such that battleships without displacement devices are basically useless in fleets of smaller ships, since the battle will be over before they arrive).

Unlike the older games, you can't win just with frigates and destroyers since module sizes don't decrease over time as you develop engineering tech - there are some useful modules, like the Mauler Device and heavy fighter bays, that simply can't fit on small ships. Also the number of modules a ship can mount is associated with ship class, so you want some larger ships for utility roles.

Cruisers and battleships seem to have little role, but both smaller and larger classes seem useful, and work well together with speed boosts or displacement devices on the latter.