Maya Challenge

[Metal Alloy Man]

Finally got optics in 1290 and just missed the first criteria though this was my most sucessful attempt by far. Any tips?

How do you post saves? I've zipped it but I don't know how to load it in to the post.

 

[Úmarth]

Click "Go Advanced" under the quick reply box then find the button that says "Manage Attachments".

 

[Metal Alloy Man]

Thanks, here's the final save. I figure you need to get Optics by 1250 which is pretty hard. I don't think I started building research early enough, so that might've been the problem.

 

[archontophoenix]

Sailing->Mathematics->Calender->Bronze Working->Metal Casting->Iron Working...

I've been starting out something like (as best I can remember -- I'm still on vacation, and don't have the game in front of me):

Bronze Working->Sailing->Mathematics->Calendar->Archery->Iron Working->Monarchy->Currency...

The earlier Bronze Working lets you chop slightly sooner around Tuitan (although I wait until I've got Mathematics to complete the chop, so as to get the most benefit from it). You still have time to get Calendar before the deadline, even if you research Bronze Working first.

I think you need either Currency or Alphabet to get to Optics in time (unless you're unusually lucky and get a tech that leads to Optics from a hut). Alphabet lets you build Research directly, but I prefer Currency: not only can you build Wealth (which lets you keep the research slider at a higher setting, giving you much the same effect as building Research), but you can also build Markets early on.

I'd use the Great Scientists for Academies rather than bulbing anything, at least early on. Alphabet is pretty quick to research, and anyway, you'll find someone to trade it to you once you cross the ocean. On the other hand, the benefits of Academies will start immediately and last throughout the game, and I assume you'll need all the research bonuses you can get to complete the tech tree first.

I usually experience my first barb attacks right after getting Calendar, so I research Archery and get some better defenders than the initial Warriors. I use the Archers for some impossible-odds attacks against the barbs, as long as I still have the free barb attacks; this gets some heavily-promoted units early on that can be turned into Crossbows later. (You could use the Warriors, too, but it will be longer before you can upgrade them to something that's really invulnerable to barbs and Natives, so I figure the promotions are better applied to Archers. I don't usually build or upgrade to Holkans at all, because their stats aren't good enough to be guaranteed a win against the riffraff. It's better to have a small military of strong units than a large military of weak units, to avoid paying military maintenance.)

As soon as I have Iron Working, I build a mine on the jungle hill southeast of Oaxaca, giving it some much-needed hammers. This is also around the time when I found Chicago, so I want to mine the iron there as quickly as possible.

When I get Monarchy I switch to Slavery and Hereditary Rule.

After that, I beeline Machinery (Crossbows and Windmills), then Optics. I've been getting Optics around 1260, which is early enough if you have a Trireme already built and ready to upgrade to a Caravel sitting off the Yucatan.

After contact, I go for Astronomy first, so as to be able to start transoceanic trade as early as possible.

I've never successfully gotten much past the discovery of Astronomy, so take all my advice with a grain of salt. I hope to try again in a couple of weeks...

 

[archontophoenix]

Finally back from vacation.

I abandoned the game I started before vacation -- the Europeans were unusually strong when I met them; the Spanish had Optics already, which I had not seen previously. Only one European country, Greece, had collapsed, and Germany (the score leader) had just taken Athens. Didn't look like very inviting territory to invade. I think you need a little luck in terms of having a more disorganized Europe to let the Maya get a good foothold.

So I downloaded the 3.17 patch and tried again. The patch appears to have fixed the strangely passive Aztec behavior on spawn, meaning that my recipe to kill them off doesn't work anymore. I'll need try one more time, and this time build a few more Crossbows before they show up.

 

[Metal Alloy Man]

I'm currently working on a Portugese UHV game but will try after it. I, personally never used your recipe, I just moved my capital.

P.S.: What do you think of me founding Tuitan 2 tiles North of Technochitlan? Did it help of hurt me? I personally think it's the better city location.

 

[archontophoenix]

The only problem with putting Tuitan where you put it (just east of where I put it) is more overlap with Oaxaca's fat cross. I also usually found a city in eastern Texas just west of the fish, so the two cities would be slightly limited in growth potential by being so close.

 

[archontophoenix]

My magic recipe is maybe not totally broken. I just tried using it again, but this time without actually attacking the initial Aztec units, but just putting my forces immediately south of them. They founded Tenochtitlan and left it defended just by a Settler, as before.

However, this time (after I killed them off) they reappeared adjacent to Tuitan and captured it, which they had never done before.

 

[archontophoenix]

OK, I'm abandoning another game in 1600, having again failed to make serious headway against Portugal.

I think I was in better shape this time than ever before. I've tuned my research order somewhat to:

Bronze Working->Sailing->Mathematics (start chopping now)
->Archery->Calendar->Iron Working (mine jungle near Oaxaca)
->Machinery (start building Crossbows)
->Currency->Monarchy (can change civics now)
->Compass->Optics

and I've built a Worker and Settlers earlier than before, so that I'm looking pretty good before the unpleasantness with the Aztecs.

Still, I haven't built enough of a war machine by the late 16th century to conquer even Portugal. It doesn't help that both Greece and the Netherlands (the other small European civs) are really healthy in this game.

So what am I doing wrong? Building too many cities too fast? Too few too slow? Too much infrastructure in the cities, instead of just cranking out weaponry? Is there something I should be doing to recover from the plague faster? Or to increase my research rate?

Here's where I am just before the Aztecs spawn:

And here I am after the plague, 200 years later, having made almost no progress:

I finally have two more cities by 1535:

But in 1605, Europe is still unimpressed:

 

[archontophoenix]

OK, after numerous attempts, I've finally gotten one European city in 1600, although not a complete spawn area:

If the city of Duras weren't there, I'd have made it.

What I find most of the time when I meet the Europeans is a religiously homogeneous and fairly harmonious continent. This means the Europeans like each other more than they like me, so they put their energy into research and infrastructure, making themselves harder and harder to attack -- unless they choose to attack me.

In this particular game, Portugal is a vassal of France and the Netherlands a vassal of Germany. There's a very slight chance I could build up enough military to capture Amsterdam (but probably not both Lisboa and Porta Delgada) by 1600, but then I'd be at war with one of the most powerful countries in the world and its vassal -- and in their solidarity, the Europeans are often able to persuade other countries to join in attacking me. Fighting a big war with Europe would make it a lot harder to complete the last two conditions.

I know this is supposed to be a challenge, and I hate to sound like a wimp, but in the interests of feasibility, is there any chance the second condition could be downgraded to "hold at least one European city in 1600"? (In which case, both sedna's game and this one would qualify.)

If that's not allowable, perhaps you could issue a clarification saying that it is permissible to start out as some other civilization and then switch to the Maya. It seems to me that you might be able to crack the facade of European harmony by, say, founding Christianity as India in a city that is likely to be overrun by Barbarians. In the games I've played (not necessarily with the Maya) where the Christian holy city has been destroyed, Europe is usually a mixture of Muslim, Jewish, and Buddhist, and the European civs spend a lot more energy on wars with each other.

 

[archontophoenix]

I think I'm not enough of a master of the stability system, or just not patient enough, to pursue this any further. However, in my next post, I'll propose something a little easier for Maya maniacs to try.

Here's the mighty Mayan empire one turn before it completely collapsed (note the complete lack of foreign culture in the Caribbean, of which I'm quite proud):

 

[archontophoenix]

I took up this challenge because the Maya have always been one of my favorite civilizations (in real history, not just Rhye's). And in a similar spirit, I'd like to propose an additional challenge.

What If?

It's always bugged me that the civilizations of the Americas got such a late start. In many ways, the Mesoamerican and Peruvian civilizations' achievements were similar to those of the Old World a few millennia earlier. What would they have accomplished if they hadn't been so far behind?

Using Rhye's alternative history simulator, I once played a game as Babylon where I entered the WorldBuilder at the start of the game and placed a Mayan Settler and Warrior just northwest of the Aztec spawn point, then continued playing normally until the official Maya spawn (turn 118). The result? The Mayans founded every religion, and a Mayan caravel sailing through the Mediterranean discovered Babylon before turn 100.

So the Native Americans might have made a much bigger splash in history, if only they'd had gotten a better start.

For those of you, like me, who find Metal's original Maya Challenge too tough (and a little depressing if you want to see a more vigorous Native American civ), here's the Supercharged Maya Challenge.

In coming up with this, I kept in mind that in a lot of Native American myth, things tend to come in fours, rather than threes, as in European folklore. Also, the Mayans counted in base twenty, not base ten.

What You Get

Start the game normally. When the Mayans spawn, open the WorldBuilder, and give yourself:

1. 2 additional Settlers (for a total of 4)

2. 1 additional Warrior (for a total 4)

3. 4 Workers

4. 4 Great People (of any type(s) you like)

You must leave the original units where they spawned, but you can place the additional units anywhere in the Maya or Aztec spawn areas.

What You Must Do

The objectives you must attain are:

1. Found at least one religion.

2. Build 4 World Wonders by the time the Aztecs spawn (turn 211, 1200 A.D.).

3. By 1490 A.D., conquer Spain and Portugal (either by vassalization or elimination).

4. By 1800 A.D., you and your vassals together must control at least 20 World Wonders and/or Shrines.

Bonus Objectives

Complete all the above, and:

1. Circumnavigate the world by 1300 A.D.

2. Every city in the Americas (including the Caribbean) must belong to you or your vassals at the end of 1730 (turn 301, the turn before the Americans spawn).

3. At the end of 1804 A.D. (the date Richard Trevithick first demonstrated a steam locomotive traveling on metal rails), all cities on the North and South American mainland (whoever owns them) must all be connected to each other by railroad.

4. Have your spaceship reach Alpha Centauri by the traditional Mayan end of the world, 2012 A.D. Of course, this means you have to avoid falling prey to Maya's chronic stability problems long enough to launch your ship.

Alternate Starts

Instead of the above, try one of these:

II. In the Maya spawn area only, give yourself 4 each of 4 different types of Great People, but no other extra units.

III. Anywhere in the New World, on either the first or second turn, add a Mayan city in the WorldBuilder (it becomes your capital if you haven't founded one yet), and:

1. Bring it up to size 4.

2. Add any 4 buildings. They can be from any era, or even the unique buildings of other civilizations, but they cannot be wonders or buildings that could be built only by Great People. (If this is your capital, the Palace is not counted as one of the 4 buildings.)

3. Add any 4 units to the city, other than Great People. Again, they can be from any era, and can be the unique units of other civilizations.

4. Within the city's fat cross, add any resource you like to each of 4 plots.

or

IV. Give yourself any 4 technologies, from any era.

Caveats and Clarifications

I haven't completed any of these yet, so the goals might be too easy or impossible. However, I've played starting conditions I, II, and III at least partway, and so far the goals seem easier to reach than in the original Maya Challenge.

Deadlines with "by" in them mean by the end of the turn in question.

 

[blizzrd]

I took up this challenge because the Maya have always been one of my favorite civilizations (in real history, not just Rhye's).

Personally, I like their pale blue colour the best in RFC.

Sounds like a good challenge though to me. I'm up for it, will start a game tonight.

 

[thadian]

using open borders treaties and a vassal of aztec i sailed my ships into the english channel. I landed, and picked my mark:

England is +12 with me, and -6 with Germany. France is +4 to me but + 6 to germany. Spain is +4 with me and -6 with france.

I landed in germany, declared war. france war me as i feared, so i bribed england and spain to war france.

HRE RISES FROM GERMANY!! Germans capitulate to HRE and now i am at war with HRE, and luckily i have some ships in the carebian to defent against an onslaught from the mediterranian.

HAIL RFC!

 

[archontophoenix]

I've played a little more with my Supercharged Maya Challenge, and come up with some of observations:

. The fourth starting condition -- four free technologies -- is not as powerful as it sounds, so I've changed it; see below.

. The first two objectives -- found a religion and build 4 wonders by 1200 -- are easy on all four starting conditions, if you use the changed starting condition IV.

. The 1490 deadline for conquering both Portugal and Spain is quite tight, though. I haven't managed to do this yet on any start.

. Start II -- 16 great people -- is more powerful than I realized.

Here's my new starting condition IV, after I realized that even when you have some powerful technologies, you don't necessarily have the productive capacity to build the units or buildings they provide:

IV. Just after you found your second city:

1. Give yourself any four technologies, from any era.

2. Give yourself any four distinct national wonders, two in each city.

(Note that if one of the wonders is a Palace, it doesn't destroy the Palace in your capital, so you wind up with two Palaces. However, the second city does become your capital; the previous capital becomes a city with an extra Palace. I think you may avoid the stability penalty for moving your Palace if you do it this way.)

3. Add four Great Spies in either city, or split between the two cities.

4. Add a Corn resource to any four land plots in the New World.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

16 great people, I never ever get that many even with the Greeks. (Max is about 8 even when playing from ancient times, not counting the free ones from discovering techs.).

 

[Metal Alloy Man]

HRE RISES FROM GERMANY!! HAIL RFC!

I thought Holy Roman Empire the Civ wasn't in RFC and that it was just a German dynamic name. Are you refering to Germany or the Holy Roman Empire the civ rising?

 

[archontophoenix]

16 great people, I never ever get that many even with the Greeks. (Max is about 8 even when playing from ancient times, not counting the free ones from discovering techs.).

I've never had multiple great people to work with at one time, so I guess I'd never developed an appreciation for just how powerful they can be. With 16, your civ really starts off with a bang.

None of the supercharged starts I've proposed really has quite the atmosphere I've been looking for, though, which is that of a Mayan civ that is larger, farther advanced, and better developed than it was historically -- that is, comparable to the most powerful contemporary civilizations in the Old World. Perhaps a better way to simulate this is by directly building (in the WorldBuilder) some cities already equipped with more-or-less historically appropriate buildings, along with a modest number of great people to let you catch up in the wonder and tech races. What kind of initial condition would have this flavor? And can the condition be specified in such a way that you have the freedom to try a number of different variations on it?

 

[Metal Alloy Man]

I can't believe it! This challenge really is superhard for a mediocre RFC player like me(I'm just waiting for RFC Random to come out so RFC doesn't matter so much now.)What have I done, I've created a monster!We need to have AnotherPacifist try this, if what I hear so far is true, only very skilled RFC'ers will be able to do this.

P.S.-No Sedna I haven't forgot about you, you've been the closest so far and yes I realize you probably can do it.

P.S.S.-Interesting challenge Archontophoenix and I appreciate all the time you spent on this challenge, hopefully one day we'll be good enough to beat it.

 

[archontophoenix]

Actually, I'm wondering if I could rescue the game I gave up on. Looking through Stability.py, I realize I had forgotten about the contribution of happiness to stability. If I've built enough Theaters and Ball Courts, and I increase my culture rate, perhaps I can hold on just long enough to reach the next golden age...

More than any other civ I've played, the Maya really do seem to be set up to collapse. I think this may be because they have so little opportunity to build wonders (each wonder gives +1 stability)-- the old world civs beat the Maya to all the early wonders, especially if you're pursuing this challenge and have to put all your efforts into expansion and research. When doing my experiments with the supercharged starts, I've usually been able to build a number of wonders, and I haven't experienced any stability problems, even after taking or razing several Old World cities (of course, the Maya are much more powerful in general in these games, and so the increased stability could be due to a number of other factors, but the wonders are the only ones that jump out at me when I try to puzzle through Stability.py).

I'm traveling again and won't have a chance to try this challenge again for a few weeks, but I guess I'll have to give it one more shot.